Experiments with Deadlift Volume

[Chebass88]

@Hanley's high volume / low fatigue bench thread is a great thread (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2422), chock full of great information and a useful program. It even contained a few excellent gems for the best lift of all, the deadlift:

BTW, I assume this style could also be applied to other major lifts such as Squats? I don't think I'd give it a whirl on deadlifts, though

Squats, yes. I think you'd need to lower the volume ceiling for squat quite a bit (no fucking way I'm doing 77 squats with 65%).

Deadlifts are...weird. For some folks, exclusive submax work can yield huge PRs, but for other folks they need to be treated almost as overload work.

Hmmmm. Huge PRs? Go on...

Haven't yet found what works for my deadlift

Try getting lots of volume via SGDL and deficits...and complement this with heavy comp singles and rack pulls (or other supramax work [reverse bands])

Snatch grip deadlifts? Heavy singles? Yes indeedy - now we're cookin'!

So you mean like 2 pull days, one day lots of snatch grip or deficits, the other just a few heavy singles?

Yup. 2 pull days a week. I think I'd mix and match sessions to balance stress....so

SGDL/Deficits
low stress = 5x5 @50-60% primary pull e1rm
medium stress = 3 sets 4-6 reps aiming for @7s on all sets
high-ish stress = initial set of 4-6 reps @9, drop 5-10% for 2-3 more sets of 4-6

2nd Pull Day
low-ish stress = 8-15 singles primary deadlift with ~80%
medium stress = 8-12 singles primary deadlift @ intensities ranging from 82-90+%
high stress = overload/supramax rack pull or reverse band singles (maybe 5-10?)

^ so just match low-stress pull day 1 with or medium or high stress pull day 2...etc

And thus, the seeds of a 2x/week deadlift program were born. I reached out to Hanley to see if he was interested in doing any experiments with a high volume / submaximal approach for the deadlift, volunteering myself as the guinea pig. It may also include some bench experimentation as well. We discussed posting this publicly, as an open source type approach, or a peek behind the curtains of the programming process. The intention is to use this experiment to develop the template so everyone can use it to improve their deadlift.


Background:
39 y.o. male, ~255lb. I like deadlifting more than any other lift, with the possible exception of the barbell curl (not joking). I took quite a few months off from conventional deadlifts in 2017 and 2018, so I'm not in all-time PR territory yet, but am working my way back to where I was. I didn't totally waste the time - I worked hard on the snatch grip and sumo variants during that time. I REALLY want a 700lb deadlift, and figured I'd like to make a decent shot at it over the next year or so, before getting too far into my 40s. I'd also like to figure out how to dial back the intensity somewhat - I can push myself hard enough to overtrain, and have done so fairly often. The use of lots of submaximal volume is very appealing. It will also be fun to see if significant progress can be made on the deadlift without squats.

Constraints of the experiment (typical lifting schedule):
5 training days per week, 3X/lifting, 2X/cardio
Lifting Day 1: Pulling (deads or variant), back work
Lifting Day 2: Bench & accessories
Lifting Day 3: Bench volume, main dead work, curls, dips
Cardio 1: 8200m rowing (~32-34 minutes)
Cardio 2: 8200m rowing at faster pace than Cardio 1 session.

Equipment limitations:
Lifting Days 1 & 2 done in well-equipped gym with barbells, plenty of plates, DBs to 120, leg press, assorted cable machines, kettlebells, etc.
Lifting Day 3 done in my garage, containing barbell, bench, rack, dip station, roman chair situp bench, limited DBs.

All-time maxes:
Conventional: 635x1 (March 17), 605x2 (June 17), 585x3 (April 17), 535x5 (Oct 16)
Snatch grip: 585x1 (Sept 18), 545x2 (Sept 18), 535x3 (Sept 18), 515x5 (Aug 18) (index fingers just outside of rings)
Sumo: 605x1 (May 18), 515x5 (June 18)

Most recent max: 515x5 @9 (?), done last Saturday (1/19/19).



Any thoughts / comments / questions are welcomed.

[iamsmu]

I'm interested in this too. I've stopped squatting and have been doing some deadlift variant (mainly low hex) every 72 hours along with leg extensions. I don't have much of a plan though. I do higher reps on one day and 5s on another, roughly. I'm all over the place though. On some days, I can do sets of 10 with what I can only do sets of 5 with on other days. . . . . I'll be watching this to see what kind of a plan you come up with.

[lehman906]

This should be great! I’ve been pulling 3x/week, and I’m always interested in even better ways to do it. As far as the benching, isn’t a key to Hanley’s new method benching 3x/week?

[Hanley]

isn’t a key to Hanley’s new method benching 3x/week?

No dude. I (mostly) bench every 72 hours.

[lehman906]

isn’t a key to Hanley’s new method benching 3x/week?

No dude. I (mostly) bench every 72 hours.

Gotcha. I must have confused it with others in the thread who were talking about doing the two lower intensity days and the 85% day each week.

[Hanley]

isn’t a key to Hanley’s new method benching 3x/week?

No dude. I (mostly) bench every 72 hours.

Gotcha. I must have confused it with others in the thread who were talking about doing the two lower intensity days and the 85% day each week.

That's their own higher-frequency implementation of the basic session plans. I'm not sure I could hack that...but I'm arthritic 'n' shit.

[lehman906]

isn’t a key to Hanley’s new method benching 3x/week?

No dude. I (mostly) bench every 72 hours.

Gotcha. I must have confused it with others in the thread who were talking about doing the two lower intensity days and the 85% day each week.

That's their own higher-frequency implementation of the basic session plans. I'm not sure I could hack that...but I'm arthritic 'n' shit.

Word. So this will be different than the DL advice you were giving over in the low fatigue thread?

[Hanley]

So this will be different than the DL advice you were giving over in the low fatigue thread?

Well, one part @Chebass88 and I need to figure out is how to dial-in out near-max volume for the SGDL and Heavy Pull sessions.

Something like a heavy single (with fixed load) pulled at the start of the "Heavy Session" over several weeks should help (so...maybe a single at 505-515 or something). Then we could review bar speed as a crude measure of gains/fatigue and adjust. It'd be trickier to evaluate this using the differing intensities and movements I proposed in the low-fatigue thread.

And getting loads dialed-in will be a little tricky...but video will help immensely there.

Basically, I'd expect volume to be a little higher than I proposed.

[CtMcBride]

I'd be down to implement some version of this. I've just been dicking around with training lately anyway. Any nudges towards what kind of setup you'd be interested in seeing @Hanley ?

Sorry if this double posts, my first attempt got lost in the ether.

[Hanley]

I'd be down to implement some version of this. I've just been dicking around with training lately anyway. Any nudges towards what kind of setup you'd be interested in seeing @Hanley ?

Not sure yet. I won't have time until Friday to play around with building the stress-puzzle.

[mettkeks]

I don't know, but 8-12 singles @82-90% seem excessive.

SpoilerShow

The above plans are linear from week to week. With the first option, you may add some back down (fatigue drop) singles in the latter weeks to accommodate for the reduction in volume but it’s not always necessary. The second two examples place the heaviest deadlifts earlier in the week. That can be switched to meet your schedule and/or create a different undulation. Our long-term planning is more undulating in nature with the majority of our training occurring in the 80-89% range. There are enormous benefits to hovering around that intensity. It’s light enough where one can perform lots of volume to acquire skill without overtraining or needing a deload. On the other hand, it’s heavy enough to elicit a significant strength response and keep lifters close to top form. When 80-89% is your home base, you’re never very far from bringing your strength to a peak. You can create your own training plan using SSPT’s Deadlift Table. The options are infinite.

We train like we compete so most training sessions begin with squats and we always squat before deadlifting. The squat serves as a warm-up for the deadlift and prepares us for the rigors of game day. When using the once/week option above, the deadlifts are performed after a high-volume, medium-intensity squat. Later in the week, we’ll squat heavy immediately followed by a special deadlift assistance exercise based on our individual weaknesses. You’ll rarely see anyone at SSPT deadlifting with the opposite grip or stance. Our specific deadlift assistance exercises closely resemble the competition style deadlift and are most often trained in the one to three rep range but sometimes as high as four or five. We may select from deficit, halting (pause), rack/block (partials), Romanian deadlifts, or even add chains. These assistance deadlift moves are typically implemented via Rates of Perceived Exertion (RPE) or percentages (of our DL max) for three to four consecutive weeks over the course of a single training block. After using a special exercise for one block, we’ll switch it for another. Training sessions are occasionally finished with a non-specific (supplemental) posterior chain movement but always with some direct (weighted) abdominal work.

[GlasgowJock]

Good shout mate.

Came to this conclusion (volume sgdl and heavy conv. singles) with my own dead lift programming last week after the bench thread. Starting to come round to the school of thought that main dead lift should be its own day as well with lots of accessory work but with my shift work programming it is difficult.

[riom]

I'm in! (sorta)

Current priority is getting faster over 2k on the rower, so the value to me of this high-volume, low-fatigue stuff is feeling like I can get work in on my lifts while still being able to tolerate and make okay progress on my conditioning work. So what I'm doing may not be at all applicable if you care more about just pulling a hyuuge dead.

I spent some time towards the end of last year doing montana method and 2x/week rowing. The strength day was a whole lot of stress, especially the squatting. Felt pretty drained trying to do both vanilla MM and get decent work in on the rower.
Jumped on the 7s@65/5s@70 bench train pretty quick as I'd been loving the MM volume day. I have now done a couple weeks of that, doing all three sessions each week. Also done one week of higher volume deads. Squats are out, they suck. Rowing just 2x week for now.

I'm tolerating the bench 3x/week because I'm sticking to the low end of volume for all the sessions, and doing the volume sessions 50/50 flat and incline bench (e.g. 4x5 flat, 4x5 incline.)

Volume dead days are 5x5 sgdl @55 and 5x5 deficit @~67 (tweaking this intensity still.)
I'll try working up towards 7 sets of 5, at least for the sgdl, but may have to drop a percentage point or two off intensity.
Heavy pull day I'm only doing ~3-5 singles @85-88%, with some doubles @80 on the way up and down, so this session is pretty low stress. It's the day before my volume work on the rower so happy keeping it that way.

I'm alternating RFESS and FS at the end of each session for some more quad-dominant work, and usually throw in a little leg press or leg extension stuff while doing my bro-ey bis and tris. (Definitely true that the light bench work barely touch your triceps, mine are fresh and ready for anything on volume bench days)

Conditioning:
Doing ~20-30 very easy minutes on the bike after lifting MWF.
Rowing, volume day at ~15k total work. I'm doing this broken up into 3-5k pieces with very short rest. Makes it less mentally draining and keeps me switched on technically. 10/10 would recommend this approach if you LISS on the rower.
Rowing, short interval day, ~4-5min of very fast work. e.g 10-15 x 20s on/1:40 off.
And I normally go for a light jog with my partner on the weekend that I count as an extra general LISS session. She's doing a half marathon early Feb, will switch it out for another rowing session after that.


I'm gonna see how this goes for a while (~6 weeks?), and then switch to a 2x week setup in order to start a 4-6 week 2k race prep kinda thing. Very curious to see if this lifting-heavy approach will provide enough of a base to show me decent erg numbers after those first few weeks of race prep.

[brkriete]

I'm interested in seeing where this takes you - thanks for sharing the process.

I spent some time deadlifting exclusively after I jacked up my shoulder and wasn't squatting for a while. I definitely made deadlift progress (and ass hypertrophy). I think you will find that without squatting it will be much, much easier to do high deadlift volume.

[nkupianist]

Also very interested in how this plays out for you - I've made great gains the past year with 3x week pulling (comp lift/deadlift variant/P row) with a lot of volume, but I've also felt on the precipice of a back tweak half the time. I'm pretty sure the stress was too much half the time and too little the other half.

[lehman906]

I started making gains with 3x/pulls but lately have stagnated, so I’m interested in seeing where this goes as well. I don’t know if I was too fatigued or under training.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

I don't know, but 8-12 singles @82-90% seem excessive.

SpoilerShow

The above plans are linear from week to week. With the first option, you may add some back down (fatigue drop) singles in the latter weeks to accommodate for the reduction in volume but it’s not always necessary. The second two examples place the heaviest deadlifts earlier in the week. That can be switched to meet your schedule and/or create a different undulation. Our long-term planning is more undulating in nature with the majority of our training occurring in the 80-89% range. There are enormous benefits to hovering around that intensity. It’s light enough where one can perform lots of volume to acquire skill without overtraining or needing a deload. On the other hand, it’s heavy enough to elicit a significant strength response and keep lifters close to top form. When 80-89% is your home base, you’re never very far from bringing your strength to a peak. You can create your own training plan using SSPT’s Deadlift Table. The options are infinite.

We train like we compete so most training sessions begin with squats and we always squat before deadlifting. The squat serves as a warm-up for the deadlift and prepares us for the rigors of game day. When using the once/week option above, the deadlifts are performed after a high-volume, medium-intensity squat. Later in the week, we’ll squat heavy immediately followed by a special deadlift assistance exercise based on our individual weaknesses. You’ll rarely see anyone at SSPT deadlifting with the opposite grip or stance. Our specific deadlift assistance exercises closely resemble the competition style deadlift and are most often trained in the one to three rep range but sometimes as high as four or five. We may select from deficit, halting (pause), rack/block (partials), Romanian deadlifts, or even add chains. These assistance deadlift moves are typically implemented via Rates of Perceived Exertion (RPE) or percentages (of our DL max) for three to four consecutive weeks over the course of a single training block. After using a special exercise for one block, we’ll switch it for another. Training sessions are occasionally finished with a non-specific (supplemental) posterior chain movement but always with some direct (weighted) abdominal work.

FWIW I disagree BUT it is certainly something that needs to be monitored with care.

[Hanley]

I don't know, but 8-12 singles @82-90% seem excessive.

SpoilerShow

The above plans are linear from week to week. With the first option, you may add some back down (fatigue drop) singles in the latter weeks to accommodate for the reduction in volume but it’s not always necessary. The second two examples place the heaviest deadlifts earlier in the week. That can be switched to meet your schedule and/or create a different undulation. Our long-term planning is more undulating in nature with the majority of our training occurring in the 80-89% range. There are enormous benefits to hovering around that intensity. It’s light enough where one can perform lots of volume to acquire skill without overtraining or needing a deload. On the other hand, it’s heavy enough to elicit a significant strength response and keep lifters close to top form. When 80-89% is your home base, you’re never very far from bringing your strength to a peak. You can create your own training plan using SSPT’s Deadlift Table. The options are infinite.

We train like we compete so most training sessions begin with squats and we always squat before deadlifting. The squat serves as a warm-up for the deadlift and prepares us for the rigors of game day. When using the once/week option above, the deadlifts are performed after a high-volume, medium-intensity squat. Later in the week, we’ll squat heavy immediately followed by a special deadlift assistance exercise based on our individual weaknesses. You’ll rarely see anyone at SSPT deadlifting with the opposite grip or stance. Our specific deadlift assistance exercises closely resemble the competition style deadlift and are most often trained in the one to three rep range but sometimes as high as four or five. We may select from deficit, halting (pause), rack/block (partials), Romanian deadlifts, or even add chains. These assistance deadlift moves are typically implemented via Rates of Perceived Exertion (RPE) or percentages (of our DL max) for three to four consecutive weeks over the course of a single training block. After using a special exercise for one block, we’ll switch it for another. Training sessions are occasionally finished with a non-specific (supplemental) posterior chain movement but always with some direct (weighted) abdominal work.

Why does it seem excessive?

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

Because it's more than what someone else said, I'd guess?

[Hamburgerfan]

I don't know, but 8-12 singles @82-90% seem excessive.

SpoilerShow

The above plans are linear from week to week. With the first option, you may add some back down (fatigue drop) singles in the latter weeks to accommodate for the reduction in volume but it’s not always necessary. The second two examples place the heaviest deadlifts earlier in the week. That can be switched to meet your schedule and/or create a different undulation. Our long-term planning is more undulating in nature with the majority of our training occurring in the 80-89% range. There are enormous benefits to hovering around that intensity. It’s light enough where one can perform lots of volume to acquire skill without overtraining or needing a deload. On the other hand, it’s heavy enough to elicit a significant strength response and keep lifters close to top form. When 80-89% is your home base, you’re never very far from bringing your strength to a peak. You can create your own training plan using SSPT’s Deadlift Table. The options are infinite.

We train like we compete so most training sessions begin with squats and we always squat before deadlifting. The squat serves as a warm-up for the deadlift and prepares us for the rigors of game day. When using the once/week option above, the deadlifts are performed after a high-volume, medium-intensity squat. Later in the week, we’ll squat heavy immediately followed by a special deadlift assistance exercise based on our individual weaknesses. You’ll rarely see anyone at SSPT deadlifting with the opposite grip or stance. Our specific deadlift assistance exercises closely resemble the competition style deadlift and are most often trained in the one to three rep range but sometimes as high as four or five. We may select from deficit, halting (pause), rack/block (partials), Romanian deadlifts, or even add chains. These assistance deadlift moves are typically implemented via Rates of Perceived Exertion (RPE) or percentages (of our DL max) for three to four consecutive weeks over the course of a single training block. After using a special exercise for one block, we’ll switch it for another. Training sessions are occasionally finished with a non-specific (supplemental) posterior chain movement but always with some direct (weighted) abdominal work.

Why does it seem excessive?

A couple years ago I was doing 10 singles in that range once a week, on top of two lighter pulling sessions. This was enough to overtrain my deadlift. I don’t know for sure that I can blame it solely on the singles, but these days I like to keep the volume more controlled at those intensities.