Lyle Mcdonald VS Mike Israetel Debate

[TimK]

You're a con man, Hanley. And a pussy

Chill, dude.

LIBEL!

[Hanley]

You're a con man, Hanley. And a pussy

Chill, dude.

LIBEL!

Nice bench PR, bro.

[timelinex]

You're a con man, Hanley. And a pussy

Chill, dude.

LIBEL!

You're a con man, Hanley. And a pussy

Chill, dude.

Have you tried to just like, add 5lb every week?

[Hanley]

You're a con man, Hanley. And a pussy

Chill, dude.

LIBEL!

You're a con man, Hanley. And a pussy

Chill, dude.

Have you tried to just like, add 5lb every week?

That's actually exactly what I'm doing (well 2kg). No bullshit.

By massively increasing weekly volume, my "SRA cycle" got smaller; I went from "advanced" to "intermediate"; from a "training age" perspective, I got younger...basically I found the Barbell Fountain of Youth.

For real, though, I've making 2kg weekly gains.

[timelinex]

You're a con man, Hanley. And a pussy

Chill, dude.

LIBEL!

You're a con man, Hanley. And a pussy

Chill, dude.

Have you tried to just like, add 5lb every week?

That's actually exactly what I'm doing (well 2kg). No bullshit.

By massively increasing weekly volume, my "SRA cycle" got smaller; I went from "advanced" to "intermediate"; from a "training age" perspective, I got younger...basically I found the Barbell Fountain of Youth.

For real, though, I've making 2kg weekly gains.

[perman]

you have been a strong influence with your high volume/low fatigue experiments.

People like PRs [shrug]

How I picture you saying that:

[mettkeks]

Are people discussing 30+ sets? Not that I see.

33 sets of Bench + 4 sets of dips and 4 sets of incline DB press has been working great for me.

I do not think you are advocating that this is something that most people can do and even benefit from. Are you?

I'm LP-ing my bench with 8sx6r 3x/week (24 sets). Week 1 was 74% of 1RM, now I'm up to 87% in week 4.

Korte's 3x3 (24 sets of 6 at 68-74% of 105% training max per week) produced some of the best german powerlifters, especially benchers, like the first german 600lb raw bench press, first german raw 2100lb+ total and the first 3.87x BW single-ply bench (301kg at 77.5kg BW) in the IPF, which is the 13th best all-time equipped bench/BW ratio and the best equipped bench/BW in the IPF.

The best german drug-free RAW Masters 60+ bencher (Walter Kurda, 222.5kg at 125 BW) Started his cycles with 30 sets of 5 at 70% and progressed/tapered linearly, while also doing OHP and incline press as supplemental work.

I guess this approach is working well.

A
World class lifters are of not part of the discussion. They are self selected for their extreme capabilities.

I'm not trying to draw a box around what is acceptable discussion. Everything goes and everything is discussed at sometime or another.

I am commenting on what is generally discussed for almost everyone. 99/100 discussions that I see are within the range of "medium".

You call me a world-class lifter? I'm flattered!!!

Joke aside, We can say the same thing about any methodology. Some world class lifters did 8 sets a week. Some did 30. Some 16. Why are there people like Joe Pena and Chaste who put up big numbers doing minimalistic training, but lots of guys on the SS forums doing the same thing but barely bench their BW after 2 years of training?

What is "medium" and why does it matter? What's discussed as "medium" seems to be MED for a lot of folks. I make No gains with 10 sets of bench. Some with 15, and a lot with 24. I could do more, but I have no Idea what intensity I'm using since I'm doing 24 sets of 6 at 87% after 3 weeks. This approach is not just working for the self selected, but it is producing results on this very forum.

I think Israetels Volume Landmarks concept is superior to all the "Training age", "SRA" or "Intensity dependent, Volume sensitive" categorizations.

[timelinex]

Are people discussing 30+ sets? Not that I see.

33 sets of Bench + 4 sets of dips and 4 sets of incline DB press has been working great for me.

I do not think you are advocating that this is something that most people can do and even benefit from. Are you?

I'm LP-ing my bench with 8sx6r 3x/week (24 sets). Week 1 was 74% of 1RM, now I'm up to 87% in week 4.

Korte's 3x3 (24 sets of 6 at 68-74% of 105% training max per week) produced some of the best german powerlifters, especially benchers, like the first german 600lb raw bench press, first german raw 2100lb+ total and the first 3.87x BW single-ply bench (301kg at 77.5kg BW) in the IPF, which is the 13th best all-time equipped bench/BW ratio and the best equipped bench/BW in the IPF.

The best german drug-free RAW Masters 60+ bencher (Walter Kurda, 222.5kg at 125 BW) Started his cycles with 30 sets of 5 at 70% and progressed/tapered linearly, while also doing OHP and incline press as supplemental work.

I guess this approach is working well.

A
World class lifters are of not part of the discussion. They are self selected for their extreme capabilities.

I'm not trying to draw a box around what is acceptable discussion. Everything goes and everything is discussed at sometime or another.

I am commenting on what is generally discussed for almost everyone. 99/100 discussions that I see are within the range of "medium".

You call me a world-class lifter? I'm flattered!!!

Joke aside, We can say the same thing about any methodology. Some world class lifters did 8 sets a week. Some did 30. Some 16. Why are there people like Joe Pena and Chaste who put up big numbers doing minimalistic training, but lots of guys on the SS forums doing the same thing but barely bench their BW after 2 years of training?

What is "medium" and why does it matter? What's discussed as "medium" seems to be MED for a lot of folks. I make No gains with 10 sets of bench. Some with 15, and a lot with 24. I could do more, but I have no Idea what intensity I'm using since I'm doing 24 sets of 6 at 87% after 3 weeks. This approach is not just working for the self selected, but it is producing results on this very forum.

I think Israetels Volume Landmarks concept is superior to all the "Training age", "SRA" or "Intensity dependent, Volume sensitive" categorizations.

I'm just using the definition that these researchers are using for low/medium/high. They all use different amounts, but I think a safe number is 25+ sets, with some studies driving their testing into the mid 40s. You sets are still within medium range believe it or not!

I fully agree with most of everything else you said. As I have mentioned in this thread, I am a big Mike Israetel Fan. But even he always talks about 25+ sets as being a ton. Not that no one uses or benefits from it, but it's clear from the way he talks about it that that is ALOT and above most peoples MRV. Which btw, MRV isn't even the goal since thats the most you can do and recover from. Not the optimal volume that will produce the biggest adaptation.

[mettkeks]

I'm just using the definition that these researchers are using for low/medium/high. They all use different amounts, but I think a safe number is 25+ sets, with some studies driving their testing into the mid 40s. You sets are still within medium range believe it or not!

Ah, Ok. I'm obviously not very familiar with the research so I stuck with what I see around the web.

I fully agree with most of everything else you said. As I have mentioned in this thread, I am a big Mike Israetel Fan. But even he always talks about 25+ sets as being a ton. Not that no one uses or benefits from it, but it's clear from the way he talks about it that that is ALOT and above most peoples MRV. Which btw, MRV isn't even the goal since thats the most you can do and recover from. Not the optimal volume that will produce the biggest adaptation.

My understanding is that hitting MRV is the result of searching for MAV as it changes as you adapt to the workload and requires some kind of Deload after.

Seems like we are mostly on the same page. I'm not arguing against anything you wrote. I just remember Israetel saying in a fairly recent podcast that James Hoffman worked up to a very high number of sets (30+ range) and just started seeing progress, while a lot of people wouldn't even be able to do as much volume, let alone recover from it. Since I'm one of those guys who need to do a lot in order to gain little and seeing a lot of people who struggle just as much as I did, I'm inclined to add my findings to this kind of discussion to offer another POV.

I just finished my first volume block. I did 4 weeks of 22-27 sets (of 6) starting at 74% adding 2.5-4% of weight/week. I was fine until week 4, and after crashing in week 5 I just hit 3 easy PRs in different Rep ranges and a e1RM PR while Performance is down about 5% from last week. Ok, my bench is poverty level, but I was used to an average of 10-14 sets @70-85% (and had problems recovering!) yet I only needed 2 sessions to acclimate.

If I had used @Hanley's MM Bench %'s and halved the weight increments, 30-35 sets (of 6) would have been possible by the second week, I think. I'll start my next Volume block with 70%x6rx8-10s and use 2% weekly increments. Based on my last 4 weeks, that should make for a doable intro-week.

[Hanley]

The best german drug-free RAW Masters 60+ bencher (Walter Kurda, 222.5kg at 125 BW) Started his cycles with 30 sets of 5 at 70% and progressed/tapered linearly, while also doing OHP and incline press as supplemental work.

I stalked this guy after you mentioned him. This dude is amazing.

Do you have any links to his programming? The 30 weekly sets of 5 @ 70% is creepy-similar to what I've been doing.

Sheiko programs fahves @70%...but his volumes are really low. I think everything that's supposed to be "Dietmar Wolf programming" is fake..but I think he uses fahves at 70% for an unknown number of weekly sets (my from the ass guess is that the prescribed volumes are crazy high).

[mettkeks]

The best german drug-free RAW Masters 60+ bencher (Walter Kurda, 222.5kg at 125 BW) Started his cycles with 30 sets of 5 at 70% and progressed/tapered linearly, while also doing OHP and incline press as supplemental work.

I stalked this guy after you mentioned him. This dude is amazing.

Do you have any links to his programming? This is creepy-similar to what I've been doing.

Nah, I tried to find out more but the website linked in his older videos is long dead. The only thing I got out of him is that rough description in my post.

The problem is that he had several heart attacks in the last couple of years, one while he was benching 200kg in a video in 2016. He also has Diabeetus Type 1 since 2010, so he didn't really notice the heart problems. He had triple bypass surgery in late 2017, where they totally fucked the arteries and some nerves in his right forearm. He resumed training in feb. 2018 and benched his most recent Max of 170kg on Nov. 7th, 2018. He lives in Cologne, which is an hour from me. His last Upload was little over 2 weeks ago, but I'll send him another DM.

I'll see If I can dig something up and translate.

Look at his Right arm:


He shows pictures of his opened forearm in another video. Yes, You can see the bones. From his elbow to his wrist.

[Marenghi]

Walter Kurda is a legend. Ive never met him, but he is highly respcected by all German PLs for his dedication and, ofc, his excellent master´s results.

Interesting thing is he was a decent shot-putter in his younger years (not professionally I think, hes an engineer by trade) and has always claimed professional strength training in the Olympic strength and track&field disciplines simply has been like this for decades, a complete counterpicture to the gruelling, grunting @RPE11+ shows in the typical bro gym.

[perman]

Interesting thing is he was a decent shot-putter in his younger years (not professionally I think, hes an engineer by trade) and has always claimed professional strength training in the Olympic strength and track&field disciplines simply has been like this for decades, a complete counterpicture to the gruelling, grunting @RPE11+ shows in the typical bro gym.

Doesn't surprise me.

Sheiko-programming looks more like sports technique practice than training in a sense. So that people doing power sports (which are about maximal power-production with precision) would lift weights as cleanly as they practice their sports makes a lot of sense. Meanwhile powerlifters who train in gyms together with bodybuilders will naturally pick up that grinding ethos.

[slowmotion]

Re Dietmar programs, I haven't found much at all. But there is some commentary by a Danish lifter who's couch reportedly was trained by Dietmar?
The Danish lifter did squat, bench and deads every day, 4-6 days a week, with a lot of variation on all the lifts, and for instance 8 sets of 6 reps on close grip bench and similar. I don't really know, it just speculation.

On the other hand there is loads of different Sheiko templates out there.

[mettkeks]

Do you have any links to his programming? The 30 weekly sets of 5 @ 70% is creepy-similar to what I've been doing.

I found a video log of his. https://www.su-sektor.de/unequppeds-ban ... 23148.html It starts in june '15 and ends in feb '16. He set the all-time WR in the 275 class for Masters 60+ in may '14, and the all-time WR in the 308 Masters in oct. '16. So right in his peak performance period.

The workouts on his YT channel are complete workouts. He actually didn't do anything but singles since 2014! From september through november 2016, he benched 200kg+ in 100 consecutive sessions in 120 days.

Interesting from a programming standpoint are the videos from '13 to mid '14 where he does gain a lot of strength and does lots of volume. Since his workouts are complete, you get quite a good idea of how his programming looks like. There's a certain randomness to it, but that's explained if you watch bar speed.

[hbriem]

Re Dietmar programs, I haven't found much at all. But there is some commentary by a Danish lifter who's couch reportedly was trained by Dietmar?
The Danish lifter did squat, bench and deads every day, 4-6 days a week, with a lot of variation on all the lifts, and for instance 8 sets of 6 reps on close grip bench and similar. I don't really know, it just speculation.

On the other hand there is loads of different Sheiko templates out there.

There are three Dietmar programs on the website of the Norwegian powerlifting federation under https://styrkeloft.no/treningsprogram/. They are from 2013 and in Norwegian though. Google Translate will help but fails on the more specialised powerlifting terminology (deadlift, squat, RPE etc). I'm sure Dietmar's thinking and coaching has changed since 2013. He has moved on to train the German national team and an Icelander, Grétar Hrafnsson, has taken over the Norwegian team. I went on a course with Dietmar a couple of years ago and it was clear that the programs on the website are just basic samples and that he programmed for each lifter individually.

They are:

Treningsprogram for nybegynnere (Training Program for Beginners)
Treningsprogram for viderekomne (Training Program for More Advanced)
Mengdetreningsprogram (Volume Training Program)
Veiledning (Guidance)
Veiledning til mengdetreningsprogram (Guidance for Volume Training Program)

I translated one of the spreadsheets a few years ago, the Volume training one. It's tricky even though the Norwegian itself is simple because of all the specialised terms, especially in the comments. I'll share it with you if you PM me.

The Norwegian "method", which comes from Dietmar is based on high frequency (many days per week), relatively high volume, relatively low intensity and rather little rest on assistance and supplemental exercises.

[olekto]

@hbriem, there are several Norwegians on this site, me for instance. I would happily assist in translating what I can. However, I am more familiar with the technical terms in English than in Norwegian since I have not discussed the sport with other Norwegians much.

[slowmotion]

There are three Dietmar programs on the website of the Norwegian powerlifting federation under https://styrkeloft.no/treningsprogram/. They are from 2013 and in Norwegian though. Google Translate will help but fails on the more specialised powerlifting terminology (deadlift, squat, RPE etc). I'm sure Dietmar's thinking and coaching has changed since 2013. He has moved on to train the German national team and an Icelander, Grétar Hrafnsson, has taken over the Norwegian team.

The Dietmar programs on styrkeloft.no are fairly well known, I guess.
The same programs are also on the German federation website now, last time I checked.

There is also a four day program floating around on the net which may or may not be his programming. I not so sure about that one.

I went on a course with Dietmar a couple of years ago and it was clear that the programs on the website are just basic samples and that he programmed for each lifter individually.

The Norwegian "method", which comes from Dietmar is based on high frequency (many days per week), relatively high volume, relatively low intensity and rather little rest on assistance and supplemental exercises.

A course with Dietmar, that must have been interesting!

[Bliss]

Do you have any links to his programming? The 30 weekly sets of 5 @ 70% is creepy-similar to what I've been doing.

I found a video log of his. https://www.su-sektor.de/unequppeds-ban ... 23148.html It starts in june '15 and ends in feb '16. He set the all-time WR in the 275 class for Masters 60+ in may '14, and the all-time WR in the 308 Masters in oct. '16. So right in his peak performance period.

The workouts on his YT channel are complete workouts. He actually didn't do anything but singles since 2014! From september through november 2016, he benched 200kg+ in 100 consecutive sessions in 120 days.

Interesting from a programming standpoint are the videos from '13 to mid '14 where he does gain a lot of strength and does lots of volume. Since his workouts are complete, you get quite a good idea of how his programming looks like. There's a certain randomness to it, but that's explained if you watch bar speed.

Amazing! Also amazing how this was left unnoticed?

Unless I misunderstood the implication of your post, did you actually go through his training videos and watch most of them (and some workouts in their entirety?), to be able to give such a breakdown?

Especially the part about bar speed.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Why do people listen to Lyle for training advice ?

For nutrition I would understand, but training ?