Optimized Novice Program

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Optimized Novice Program

#1

Post by Murelli » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:34 am

Okay, we've all seen the many ways a novice can screw up a simple program like SS. What if we have a good novice that can make really good progress and we can take it up a notch?

In that sense, the best Novice program I've seen out there is Izzy's PNP, but it is Powerlifting specific and I was thinking General Strength (without his buddy Corporal Punishment). So, I would go from there and "adapt" Izzy's PNP into a General Strength program like this:

Phase I
A/B
Squat 3x3-6 (@9)
Bench 3x3-6 / Press 3x3-6 (@9)
Deadlift 3x3-6 (@9)

Same weight progression as PNP. The real deal would be phase II and phase III, where I would do it more SSish:

Phase II

A/B
Squat 3x3-6 (@9)
Bench 2x3-6 + 2x6 with 80-90% / Press 2x3-6 + 2x6 with 80-90% (@9 - top sets)
Deadlift 3x3-6 / Chins 3x3-6 (@9)

Now Chins would have to be loaded, which creates a difficulty with equipment for some. You can sub chins for 3xAMRAP if the guy is skinny and doesn't have access to a dip belt, or lat pulldowns with a chin grip or V-grip (3x8-11) and as strict as possible (no dynamic hip movement).

Pressing movements will have back-off sets so they keep going. The back-off will be offloaded proportional to the amount of reps performed in the top sets:
3 reps - 80%
4 reps - 83%
5 reps - 86%
6 reps - 90%

Phase III

Squat 3x3-6 (@9) (Light middle of the week - 2x5x80%)
Bench 2x3-6 + 2x6 with 80-90% / Press 2x3-6 + 2x6 with 80-90% (@9 - top sets)
Deadlift 3x3-6 / Chins 3x3-6 (@9) (you can deadlift once a week also, in the light squat day - it works too)

Here you can choose to start specializing in one of the pressing lifts, and perform it twice weekly with the other movement in the middle of the week.

Notes: :idea:

Weight Progression
Entirely based on number of reps completed (on top sets if Phase II or III pressing) (kg / lb):
Phase I
3 - 0.5 / 1
4 - 1 / 2.5
5 - 2 / 5
6 - 5 / 10

Phase II
3 - 0.5 / 1
4 - 1 / 2.5
5 - 1 / 2.5
6 - 2.5 / 5

Phase III
3 - 0.5 / 1
4 - 0.5 / 1
5 - 1 / 2.5
6 - 1 / 2.5

RPE- Rating only, don't follow it. What we want is to anticipate the learning so the trainee can follow a RPE-based program right out of his LP. Went @10 without notice? No sweat. Gauged wrong? No sweat. Undershot? No sweat. Got pinned by a squat when last workout you did 6@8? No problem also. You shouldn't focus on the RPE, but you have to be conscious of it and you have to gauge it always to imbue the habit within your lifting.

The @9 recommendation means don't get so close to failure - always leave a rep in the tank. Novices have to learn two life lessons with an LP - 1) sometimes you have to grind throught the tough times, 2) but you must always leave some to allow you to fight another day. Too much grinding is unproductive, embeds bad motor patterns and may lead to injuries. Injuries in the novice period may lead to program abandonment.

When in doubt wheter or not you are grinding a lot, or if you truly went for a @10, ask for help. Video is your friend and the Technique forum is video's best destination. Ask for a form check there and open your heart for the sincere criticism.

No resets - Progress halting? First thing is to ask yourself if sleep, nutrition and life stresses can be optimized. Do that if you can and profit from the results. Also, have you went through all the phases yet? Advance a phase if you haven't.

If that's not possible or have already been done: you reached @10 a few days with only 3 reps, or you've been grinding a lot and feeling like you're dying days or weeks in a row to get those 3 reps, go to The Bridge or something. No need to run yourself into the ground.

Chins - Wanna do power cleans? Do them. Wanna do rows? Do them. Wanna do SLDL or RDL? Don't. Why? SLDL and RDL are difficult for a novice still greasing his deadlift groove, and believe it or not, there are people who can fuck up a deadlift, the simplest of lifts. Lat pulldowns are ok, just don't bro them down (dynamic rip movement).

Conditioning - 100% optional for phases I and II. Are you an athlete in a sport? Keep practicing and that will be enough (also, do the LP 2x/wk if you need to). Busy life and can't add conditioning? Ok too. Now for phase III it's good to start something to build into your GPP (General Physical Preparedness, whatever that is):
- 5 min warmup to get the juices flowing;
- 15 min slightly more than conversational pace (ergo, you won't be able to talk but won't be out of breath either).
- Weapons of choice: rower, air bike, spin bike, elliptical, uphill treadmill walk (max incline), uphill walk outside. Don't run unless you are a runner. If so, spend two weeks in contemplation and rethink all your life choices and the purpose of life itself. Don't Crossfit also, but I shouldn't have to write this - if you must Crossfit, sandbag it a little while on your LP.
- When? Once a week. Do it before your light day or after the third day of the week, when you have two days between lifting sessions, whatever fits your schedule best. Or don't do it at all and keep breathing heavy after a flight of stairs.

Nutrition - Come on!!! Go to the Nutrition section of the Exodus Strength Forum.
Blanket statements:
- 2.2g/kg of bodyweight of protein per day - Whey Protein is your friend here (all other protein powders are your enemies :evil: );
- Aim to eat 80% of "clean food" (minimize processing and ingredient quantity);

Couch statements
- Beer/whiskey/ice cream 1x/wk minimum;
- Diet sodas only;
- Milk is your friend, unless you can't drink it. Skim, 1%, 3%, chocolate, whatever. It has carbs, protein and adjustable fat (depending on your purchase). It tastes good and you can drink it. Easy to measure the quantity for counting purposes;
- Eggs are natures pre-packed protein snack. Don't eat them raw or you'll get a booboo in your belly, which may or may not lead to death. Beware of the congealing of the proteins;
- Learn to count macros if you are needing to cut weight or if you want to optimize your growth.

Critiques? Bashing? Schooling? All welcome.

P.S.: Someone call Izzy to these forums, please.

Revision control:
A) hsilman and allentown suggestions included. RPE clarification enhanced.
Last edited by Murelli on Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:36 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#2

Post by hsilman » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:28 am

I would say you can do v-handle pulldowns if you still can't chin, or to make up volume if you can only do chin singles. Lots of novices can't do a single chinup.

I'd want to introduce more pressing volume early on. Maybe phase II or III do backoff sets of cgbp? Gotta start building up work capacity, at least I find I need and can tolerate more pressing volume to make progress.

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#3

Post by Murelli » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:29 am

hsilman wrote:I would say you can do v-handle pulldowns if you still can't chin, or to make up volume if you can only do chin singles. Lots of novices can't do a single chinup.

I'd want to introduce more pressing volume early on. Maybe phase II or III do backoff sets of cgbp? Gotta start building up work capacity, at least I find I need and can tolerate more pressing volume to make progress.
Great insight! Maybe it would be good to edit the OP to include such sensible suggestions?

Which set/rep scheme would you suggest for lat pulldowns and additional pressing?

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#4

Post by Allentown » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:44 am

I'd say for Phase II, I'd rather to Squat/Bench/Chin and Squat/Press/DL. I'd also personally want some sort of conditioning in, perhaps not until Phase III?

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#5

Post by cwd » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:18 am

Re: RPE for a novice,
Could work for an experienced lifter coming back from a layoff, or a true beginner with a coach on hand.

But a true beginner w/o a coach has no clue about RPE until they get pinned in each lift several times.
Some beginners are underconfident rather than overconfident and will make the opposite mistake and end up aborting LP while working @7.
I'm with Rip on RPE for novices.

The biggest flaw in SSLP for *me* was addressed nicely in Sully & Baker's BB Rx book.
Frequency of lifting, size of weight increases, and expectations for how far the SSLP will run need to be adjusted down for old folks.
And some of us count as "old folks" as early as 45.

If someone had told me up front that many people my age have an SSLP that only runs 8 weeks and tops out at a 200lb squat, that would have saved me a world of hurt.
I bought into the bravado and thought it should last 4-5 months and get me over 3 plates. Anything less was NDTP.

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#6

Post by Murelli » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:54 am

cwd wrote:Re: RPE for a novice,
Could work for an experienced lifter coming back from a layoff, or a true beginner with a coach on hand.

But a true beginner w/o a coach has no clue about RPE until they get pinned in each lift several times.
Some beginners are underconfident rather than overconfident and will make the opposite mistake and end up aborting LP while working @7.
I'm with Rip on RPE for novices.

The biggest flaw in SSLP for *me* was addressed nicely in Sully & Baker's BB Rx book.
Frequency of lifting, size of weight increases, and expectations for how far the SSLP will run need to be adjusted down for old folks.
And some of us count as "old folks" as early as 45.

If someone had told me up front that many people my age have an SSLP that only runs 8 weeks and tops out at a 200lb squat, that would have saved me a world of hurt.
I bought into the bravado and thought it should last 4-5 months and get me over 3 plates. Anything less was NDTP.
I only got pinned by squats twice, and failed press once during my whole LP. I always could gauge pretty accurately if I had 2 more reps in the tank, what I couldn't tell much was a @9 from a @9.5.

As disclaimed in the OP, the @9 is only for gauging, so the ideal novice trainee starts recording for the sake of learning and tries to keep away from @10 and from getting pinned.

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#7

Post by cwd » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:12 am

Murelli wrote: I only got pinned by squats twice, and failed press once during my whole LP. I always could gauge pretty accurately if I had 2 more reps in the tank, what I couldn't tell much was a @9 from a @9.5.
As disclaimed in the OP, the @9 is only for gauging, so the ideal novice trainee starts recording for the sake of learning and tries to keep away from @10 and from getting pinned.
My experience was very different! Perhaps I'm better at grinding past my mental limits, or more likely just a motor moron who's bad at estimating. Look at this set:



I was 100% sure rep 3 was @10, but because the program said so, went down for rep 4 expecting to have to leave it on the pins and crawl out. But I got 2 more reps.

Now, I'm not saying it's healthy for me to grind like that. I ration myself on efforts like that these days. But w/o the program telling me to go for 5, I'd never know what @10 is.

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#8

Post by Murelli » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:39 am

cwd wrote:My experience was very different! Perhaps I'm better at grinding past my mental limits, or more likely just a motor moron who's bad at estimating. Look at this set:

I was 100% sure rep 3 was @10, but because the program said so, went down for rep 4 expecting to have to leave it on the pins and crawl out. But I got 2 more reps.

Now, I'm not saying it's healthy for me to grind like that. I ration myself on efforts like that these days. But w/o the program telling me to go for 5, I'd never know what @10 is.
Yeah, I get it. Don't know what to make of it though. Would it be better if you had stopped on rep 3? Or is your case a good example towards leaving RPE gauging out of a novice program?

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#9

Post by cwd » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:01 am

I would recommend beginners do SS as-written, with mods from BB Rx for geezers and others with poor recovery.

They should record (confused and inaccurate) RPEs but use them only to decide on the size of the jumps from session to session.
Every set should go to 5 or actual failure, and every session should increase the target if the previous session hit 3x5.

Failing to hit 3x5 2-3 times in a row triggers that lift switching to the simplest possible HLM programming, which mixes cleanly with SSLP.
I wouldn't have them reset the weight and continue LP except for technique problems.

When all lifts are on HLM, consider switching to some other intermediate program (4-day upper/lower split, Bridge, etc). Or just stay on HLM.
At this point, more sophisticated use of RPE makes sense, including adjusting weights on the fly and stopping sets early when @9 is hit.

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#10

Post by Murelli » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:06 am

cwd wrote:I would recommend beginners do SS as-written, with mods from BB Rx for geezers and others with poor recovery.

They should record (confused and inaccurate) RPEs but use them only to decide on the size of the jumps from session to session.
Every set should go to 5 or actual failure, and every session should increase the target if the previous session hit 3x5.

Failing to hit 3x5 2-3 times in a row triggers that lift switching to the simplest possible HLM programming, which mixes cleanly with SSLP.
I wouldn't have them reset the weight and continue LP except for technique problems.

When all lifts are on HLM, consider switching to some other intermediate program (4-day upper/lower split, Bridge, etc). Or just stay on HLM.
At this point, more sophisticated use of RPE makes sense, including adjusting weights on the fly and stopping sets early when @9 is hit.
That's a great view and I kind of share it. I would also recommend vanilla SS for 80% of the people, then HLM then Bridge as you've put it. But I'm trying to think out a program for those 20% who could really optimize their LP.

My view of training in general is this: optimal depends on the person's life. What is optimal for a 20 year old college student with no girlfriend, living with his parents is not optimal for a 35 year old with sleep problems, 4 kids and a wife, two jobs and hypogonadism. I'm trying to solve the optimal LP program for the optimal trainee (thought experiment) problem.

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#11

Post by cwd » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:28 am

I don't know much about programming for ideal high-recovery novices...

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#12

Post by cgeorg » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:31 am

Murelli wrote:My view of training in general is this: optimal depends on the person's life. What is optimal for a 20 year old college student with no girlfriend, living with his parents is not optimal for a 35 year old with sleep problems, 4 kids and a wife, two jobs and hypogonadism. I'm trying to solve the optimal LP program for the optimal trainee (thought experiment) problem.
Hey leave Cody out of this ;)

You could probably add a 3rd backoff set to the presses in Phase 3. As a novice who let some of the numbers get in his head, I had some days where I only got my 5s because I was supposed to do 5 (and even then I don't think they were @10), so allowing leeway in target number of reps does give me some hesitation. I never failed a squat during my LP, although I did microload it (shush I know) and had... I think 2 resets - once for form cleanup, and once for I don't remember why. Actually I think I've only failed 1 squat ever if you don't count the warmup where my back went out. And 0 deadlifts. Bench and Press tho...

I'd consider leaving RPE out of the description of the program altogether. It's hard to get back into the mindset of not being sure if you can get another, once you get a pretty good handle on that.

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#13

Post by d0uevenlift » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:15 am

Murelli wrote:I'm trying to solve the optimal LP program for the optimal trainee (thought experiment) problem.
Hmm, if I had a 5'9", 225lb 18-year-old at 16-18% bodyfat who isn't engaged in school/recreational sports, eats like a champ, has a normal hormonal profile and sleeps 8-10 hours a night, I'd have him do the normal novice SSLP and take out power cleans. Once his bench and press start to slow down a little, I'd switch those to 5x5 instead of 3x5, and when they both really start to slow down, I'd ask him to pick one to prioritize over the other and increase the frequency of that lift.

For squats, once he is starting to slow down and looking like his last reps and/or sets are starting to grind, I'd switch him to advanced novice, but have him do two back-off sets on his Day 1 and Day 3 lifts. So, 3x5 at the planned weight, and 2x5 with a 5-7% reduction in working weight.

For deadlifts, once that looks like it's getting close to stalling, maybe add a light day for sets across? Say he starts slowing down a lot at 440x5, I'd have him do a second day of deadlifts at 365-370 for 3x5.

I have no experience training or working with novices.

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#14

Post by KarlM » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:01 am

d0uevenlift wrote:
Murelli wrote:I'm trying to solve the optimal LP program for the optimal trainee (thought experiment) problem.
... For deadlifts, once that looks like it's getting close to stalling, maybe add a light day for sets across? Say he starts slowing down a lot at 440x5, I'd have him do a second day of deadlifts at 365-370 for 3x5.
Hello new forum, long time lurker on the other forum, then all the cool cats left...

So how do people generally transition when their deadlift LP is coming to an end? It seems that just adding more volume is a recipe for back tweaking. When the deadlift stalls, you need to increase volume, but you'll need to take that volume from squats, right? Or is it then time to swap out some of the low bar squatting with other less stressful variants?

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#15

Post by mgil » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:14 am

KarlM wrote:
d0uevenlift wrote:
Murelli wrote:I'm trying to solve the optimal LP program for the optimal trainee (thought experiment) problem.
... For deadlifts, once that looks like it's getting close to stalling, maybe add a light day for sets across? Say he starts slowing down a lot at 440x5, I'd have him do a second day of deadlifts at 365-370 for 3x5.
Hello new forum, long time lurker on the other forum, then all the cool cats left...

So how do people generally transition when their deadlift LP is coming to an end? It seems that just adding more volume is a recipe for back tweaking. When the deadlift stalls, you need to increase volume, but you'll need to take that volume from squats, right? Or is it then time to swap out some of the low bar squatting with other less stressful variants?
What's your current lifting schedule?

The SS approach to DL stalls might be backwards for some folks. Sure, LBBS can carry a lot of momentum for the DL, but not all of it. One thing to try is going to an HLM scheme for pulls. Slowly start to introduce more volume of the main deadlift and introduce a lighter variant (pause DLs, SLDL, SGDL, etc) for medium day and do rows or really light pulls on L day.

ETA:

Yes, consider a squat variant or two as well.

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#16

Post by Murelli » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:17 am

KarlM wrote:Hello new forum, long time lurker on the other forum, then all the cool cats left...

So how do people generally transition when their deadlift LP is coming to an end? It seems that just adding more volume is a recipe for back tweaking. When the deadlift stalls, you need to increase volume, but you'll need to take that volume from squats, right? Or is it then time to swap out some of the low bar squatting with other less stressful variants?
I typed a big answer and messed up pushing the "Submit" button.

You don't really need to forego low bar. You can tone down on squat and deadlift intensities and up the volume gradually. I went from LP to HLM, and the additional volume came mostly from M day pulling (RDL for 3x7, rowing for 3x8, etc.). Now I'm running The Bridge which has lots of variations.

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#17

Post by KOTJ » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:37 am

KarlM wrote:
d0uevenlift wrote:
Murelli wrote:I'm trying to solve the optimal LP program for the optimal trainee (thought experiment) problem.
... For deadlifts, once that looks like it's getting close to stalling, maybe add a light day for sets across? Say he starts slowing down a lot at 440x5, I'd have him do a second day of deadlifts at 365-370 for 3x5.
Hello new forum, long time lurker on the other forum, then all the cool cats left...

So how do people generally transition when their deadlift LP is coming to an end? It seems that just adding more volume is a recipe for back tweaking. When the deadlift stalls, you need to increase volume, but you'll need to take that volume from squats, right? Or is it then time to swap out some of the low bar squatting with other less stressful variants?

In the case of stalling on Starting Strength linear progression, you are not "stealing" squat volume to increase your deadlift. In fact, you won't ever "steal" from one lift to make progress on another.

You can add lighter deadlifts or deadlift supplemental/assistance work on your first day, at the end of your workout. Try something like 70% of your last week's deadlift, for 2-3x 5 reps. There are a million ways to keep getting stronger.

Here is the big issue: you only know weekly gains. At this point in your lifting career, you are getting stronger every week or within each week. As things start to slow down, you KNOW you must continue to keep this sweet, sweet gains.

The most beneficial thing for you is to understand and accept that adding weight on the bar is not the best way to get strong, as novice gains slow down. You are closer to the stage of accumulating stress over several days or weeks and displaying it days, weeks, and eventually, months later. Do not fear the stall.

You will learn to love volume. I have people intermediates squatting and pulling 50+ reps a week, and doing upper body lifts with 60+ reps per week, without a long transition period.

You do not want to be a novice "as long as possible". You want to get stronger as efficiently as possible. Squatting 400x4, then doing 410 for 4x1 reps the next week doesn't mean you're stronger at all. You're just lifting more weight on the bar

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#18

Post by hsilman » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:45 am

KOTJ wrote: You will learn to love volume. I have people intermediates squatting and pulling 50+ reps a week, and doing upper body lifts with 60+ reps per week, without a long transition period.
Please let me know if I'm getting too far off topic, but:

I'm doing what I consider a "low effort" program right now, and I'm squatting and pulling a combined 50 reps per week, pressing 85, and upper body pulling 40+(I'd do 90, but I can't do 3x10 chins across and I'll probably weight them first anyway).

I don't know if it's exactly accurate, but the whole "volume is the base of the pyramid of strength" seems a decent analogy. You can only raise to the height(peak) that your base can sustain.

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#19

Post by KOTJ » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:49 am

hsilman wrote:
KOTJ wrote: You will learn to love volume. I have people intermediates squatting and pulling 50+ reps a week, and doing upper body lifts with 60+ reps per week, without a long transition period.
Please let me know if I'm getting too far off topic, but:

I'm doing what I consider a "low effort" program right now, and I'm squatting and pulling a combined 50 reps per week, pressing 85, and upper body pulling 40+(I'd do 90, but I can't do 3x10 chins across and I'll probably weight them first anyway).

I don't know if it's exactly accurate, but the whole "volume is the base of the pyramid of strength" seems a decent analogy. You can only raise to the height(peak) that your base can sustain.
Wait, youre total squat and pull volume is 50 reps/week?

Aren't you an intermediate?

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Re: Optimized Novice Program

#20

Post by hsilman » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:11 am

KOTJ wrote:
hsilman wrote:
KOTJ wrote: You will learn to love volume. I have people intermediates squatting and pulling 50+ reps a week, and doing upper body lifts with 60+ reps per week, without a long transition period.
Please let me know if I'm getting too far off topic, but:

I'm doing what I consider a "low effort" program right now, and I'm squatting and pulling a combined 50 reps per week, pressing 85, and upper body pulling 40+(I'd do 90, but I can't do 3x10 chins across and I'll probably weight them first anyway).

I don't know if it's exactly accurate, but the whole "volume is the base of the pyramid of strength" seems a decent analogy. You can only raise to the height(peak) that your base can sustain.
Wait, youre total squat and pull volume is 50 reps/week?

Aren't you an intermediate?
*your

5x5 squat
5x5 deadlift

I'm not going to push it because I'm still focused on getting my left leg back to 100%(or some facsimile) and I don't know if extra volume would help that. Even so, at most I'd be adding like, 25 more reps or so. I got my deadlift to 515 with that before, don't think I need to go higher than that. Just a few more sets of RDL and/or SLDL each week.

anyway, we're derailing. My programming is about as far as you can get from "optimal novice program" as one can be.

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