The "why can't I get into a decent front rack" thread

[augeleven]

First of all I'm not program hopping... This post has nothing to do with the ALP thread in training.

But I'm super jealous of people who can get into front rack position, I don't have the flexibility. I also haven't trained the flexibility too much, so there's that. I was planning on doing a cycle of outside lifting in the summer: cleans, presses, and front squats.

Has anybody here gone from completely being unable to front rack to having a decent front rack? How inept were you and how long did it take to remedy? What worked best for you? There's plenty of youtube vids on this, but I'm looking that anecdotal awesomesauce

[Allentown]

Just here so that the first reply will be someone who front squats with hands closed around the bar.
I think Hanley has said something about front rack grip being a symptom of upper back weakness?

[TimK]

I can't do it without my elbows pointing at the ground. Long forearms and not flexible enough to jam them out to the sides like some people seem to be able to do.

[platypus]

Any particular reason you want to rack a front squat like a clean?

You can always do a california grip or use straps.

[mbasic]

Any particular reason you want to rack a front squat like a clean?

He mentioned he wanted to do some "cleans" is his OP.
You can most certain power clean with a elbows-down-just-so-so front rack.
But the best way I've found/seen that people improve their power clean rack,
is by making themselves do front squats with a clean grip.
(not that this is the sole reason to front squat of course)

To the OP, my n=1:
It was so long ago when I started, I don't remember how bad it really was, and/or in what specific way.
But I remember it was painful, and I did not like it at all.
Everything would hurt after a set of Fsqts...well ache really. Elbows, wrists, shoulders.
I'm thinking have a have longer forearm to upper arm ratio.

Widening my clean grip helped a lot.
I put my pinkies on the Oly rings, or just barely inside.
This cranks on your elbows at first, but after a short while, it doesn't bother me at all.

At the end of your regular workouts, just put 95 or 135 on the bar and hold it there for several seconds.
The empty bar wont do shit. Play with things to figure it out. Width, etc . . .number of finger under bar, etc

[mbasic]

Just here so that the first reply will be someone who front squats with hands closed around the bar.

really? closed hand, thumbs around?
looks like its in the ends of fingers in your IG.

I think Hanley has said something about front rack grip being a symptom of upper back weakness?

^ big time COULD BE ... COULD BE a symptom.

[SJB]

Has anybody here gone from completely being unable to front rack to having a decent front rack?

My little sister managed this with ease, me not so much. Seriously watching with interest. As I have tried with straps and California, maybe just weak.

[Allentown]

really? closed hand, thumbs around?
looks like its in the ends of fingers in your IG.

Yeah, by the end of a session I can pretty much just keep my fingers on, and I only post the last set of a session. Which is why it seems to me like it might be a muscle thing. At the start of a workout I can keep my elbows up with my hands around the bar, because my upper back is fresh. Toward the end, in order to keep my elbows up, since my upper back is rounding/I am trying to shift the weight more into my hamstrings, closing my hip angle more, I need to lift my elbows further in relation to my torso than I do for the first 6-8 sets, so I can't keep my hands all the way on the bar any more.
I should see if I can get a video of an early rep from an angle you can actually see my hands.

[slowmotion]

I should follow this thread. I can't front squat worth a damn.

[augeleven]

Any particular reason you want to rack a front squat like a clean?

Cuz I can't and I'm pig-headed. Also, the idea of cleaning my presses (which conveniently are weak) and doing silly barbell complexes appeal to me. Not for time though. Or near other people. eww.

I think Hanley has said something about front rack grip being a symptom of upper back weakness?
^ big time COULD BE ... COULD BE a symptom.

Interesting. I've ignored upper back stuff until recently. Perhaps this will help.

This cranks on your elbows at first, but after a short while, it doesn't bother me at all.

I went to a SSC twice during my LP. First time we didn't power clean. The second time 2 months later he said power cleans were "counter-indicated" due to my age, lack of athleticism, and the elbow issues that brought me to him in the first place (and which have only started to go away since I switched to high bar). I'll probably try this anyway though.

[platypus]

Any particular reason you want to rack a front squat like a clean?

He mentioned he wanted to do some "cleans" is his OP.

I’m an idiot. I read the word front and my mind inserted the word squat.

[mbasic]

Any particular reason you want to rack a front squat like a clean?

He mentioned he wanted to do some "cleans" is his OP.

I’m an idiot. I read the word front and my mind inserted the word squat.

No prob. Your points are valid for the front squat end-around for the rach though.
A lot of people are aware of Genie/California grip, but that COULD (not always) lead to 'rounding'.
But many people aren't aware of the strap trick, which is a pretty good fix in my mind.
That is, you can slowly over time grab the straps slightly lower and lower, maybe one day get your fingers under the bar.
(say if you want to get into cleans)
Or just keep using the straps, and que "elbows up"

IMO: A developed front squat (with a clean grip) should be a prerequisite to POWER cleaning.
Even if/when you give up on power cleans; I see front squats having more utility . . for the long term life of the lifter.
Yeah, hopefully the rack thing will be sorted out when he goes to power cleans by being competent in front squats first. . .
But when he starts power cleaning, and throws some significant weight on, which he should be able to because deadlifting since day 1 . . . .
I see him dealing with that lower catch posisiton much better than the guy who has never front squatted a day in his whole life (i.e. SSNLPer).
(being able to rack, and stop the bar, in that 'lower' position). Not just because of rack mobility, but upper back strength, strength and "confidence" in your knees/legs, etc etc etc

Then, the very last reason....maybe a guy transitions into full cleans . . .but this is unimportant here.

[chrisd]

A decent front rack requires force to keep the elbows up. Failure to do this would seem to indicate lack of force and hence insufficient strength.

/Sarcasm off/

Just picking up a heavy bar in the front rack position from stands will sort out the positioning and get you used to the actions needed to keep the elbows up.

A lot of scapular protraction and having the bar close to you helps.

I went from racking with difficulty to keeping the hook grip on with lighter weights.

[augeleven]

A decent front rack requires force to keep the elbows up. Failure to do this would seem to indicate lack of force and hence insufficient strength.

Yeah this makes sense, The elbows coming up is shoulder flexion, right? Which of the 4 lifts I have spent the last year doing helps shoulder rotation in that ROM, none right?

A lot of scapular protraction and having the bar close to you helps.
I went from racking with difficulty to keeping the hook grip on with lighter weights.

Scapular protraction, doesn't that cause a rounded back? I'm sitting at my desk trying to push my scaps away from my spine and I feel like I'm in the gymnast's hollow position.
Nope I got it. I think I have been retracting my scapula to get a rigid upper back. Interesting stuff.

[chrisd]

A decent front rack requires force to keep the elbows up. Failure to do this would seem to indicate lack of force and hence insufficient strength.

Yeah this makes sense, The elbows coming up is shoulder flexion, right? Which of the 4 lifts I have spent the last year doing helps shoulder rotation in that ROM, none right?

A lot of scapular protraction and having the bar close to you helps.
I went from racking with difficulty to keeping the hook grip on with lighter weights.

Scapular protraction, doesn't that cause a rounded back? I'm sitting at my desk trying to push my scaps away from my spine and I feel like I'm in the gymnast's hollow position.
Nope I got it. I think I have been retracting my scapula to get a rigid upper back. Interesting stuff.

Thoracic flexion causes a rounded back. Scapular protraction is technically rounded shoulders, but if you keep your chest up, it's okay. I have found that the position you adopt when you brace is important. Inhale, expand chest and kep it expanded when you close your glottis.

[perman]

I found this tutorial from Max Aita about a good rack position better than Rip's descriptions:


I think Max's emphasis on the subtleties of where to keep the elbow is more useful than Rip's simplification of higher elbows being better if you struggle with a good rack. It certainly helped me.

[KyleSchuant]

Alta's advice is good.

Just picking up a heavy bar in the front rack position from stands will sort out the positioning and get you used to the actions needed to keep the elbows up.

Yes, I've seen that too. In fact when I teach the clean, I start them with the bar in the rack, that way nobody has to futz about finding the right grip width and all that, they just do it right from the start. (And I toss aside that "we're going to call this the hang position" since it's used once and then never referred to again.)

Upper back strength is key, obviously - but also shoulder and upper back mobility. If you're catching your clean low, you face the same issues a front squatter does. If your upper back's not strong enough, you'll hunch over. And if you naturally have a bit of a hunch there, like many older and/or tall guys do, then as you drop your elbows will, and all the weight will go on your wrists, which never helps.

As well, if you're long-legged then your trunk will be more horizontal during a squat, which means you need more shoulder mobility and upper-back strength than those annoying short-legged people who make ideal weightlifters.

So really... just grab it out of the rack and work on it from there, and if you can, do the other stuff that'll loosen up the upper back (low-bar back squat, or broomstick stuff if you're into that) and strengthen it (chins, deadlifts, horizontal rows, etc). Maybe the SSC was right and the OP can't really do it - or couldn't do it when the SSC saw him. But maybe by now things have loosened and strengthened enough that he can.

[cwd]

Long forearms and a hunch back make front squats a misery for me.

I can do them with straps but they still suck. Probably I should spend some time developing my front squat on the theory that it's a weak point. Ugh.

[augeleven]

I skipped over the power clean during LP, after trying for a couple of workouts, managing only to aggravate my already pretty upset elbows.
I don't need more power generation, but I would love an alternative and badass way to getting bar with the last plates off the floor and onto the jhooks.

I am interested people's thoughts on the inclusion of explosive movements like sandbag cleans or medicine ball throws in some programs to prime the (mumbles incoherently).

[simonrest]

I've got forearms longer than my upper arms and I always struggled to get a front rack (and rack a clean). I had been trying to grip wider and push my elbows in, which is advice I read on some website. Recently I narrowed my grip a couple of inches and really pushed my delts forward: like the scapular protection cue above. I'm still pushing my elbows inward, and they aren't quite as high as I'd like, but I am now carrying the weight on my Delts and have enough hand on the bar to stabilise it. It's not a great rack, but it's good enough to do front squats.