LOW TESTOSTERONE???

[Hardartery]

I find some of the testing protocols by the clinics interesting.
IWO: The whole numbers game is a joke IMO.

What I had, and many others I have spoken with had experience with..... they (clinics) would test you right before your next shot/dose .... to gauge the trough levels of the wave. Typically, they do not want to see "low" numbers (500-700), and would want to see something around 800-1000. But your peak numbers would be much higher of course (say the day after the dose).

Which after thinking about it, was weird to me, because total test fluctuates throughout the day. Like a guy with good natural test levels would be something like 800-1000 at 8am. But maybe only 500-600 in the after noon. Someone with more normal natural levels would be like 500-600 at 8am, and maybe 400 or so in the afternoon. [numbers made up and not exact here^ ]




If you are stretching the artificial test-wave over a few days or week (from peak to trough).... well, that seems like your levels are really really really fucking high compared to a guy with what would be considered naturally high test levels. (total area under the curve, over the course of several days).
Below is roughly 2x/week dose compared to normal young dude, and normal old dude.

Being at the high end of normal isn't all that, IME. I run not much above the middle of the range at trough and feel better there than pushing the top of the range. Mind you, running actual cycle numbers would be a different animal,,, but I digress. Anyway, the peak is so short, usually one to maybe two days and then the drop off can be pretty precipitous but the trough is just kind of where you will hang out once you have at least 6 weeks at a given dose. It doesn't really drop off for a while from that trough, at least not fast, because of the stacked half-lives.

It also depends a lot on what you use. Cypionate is the norm in N America, and it has a weird "Half-life" versus "Effective half-life" thing that the scientists seem to go back and forth on. If you split doses up to two or three a week or something it doesn't do that big spike and drop off, or switching to Sustanon (Not available in the US) makes a huge difference both in any E2 issues and on maintaining a fairly flat level. flat levels are easier and better.

[5hout]

What I had, and many others I have spoken with had experience with..... they (clinics) would test you right before your next shot/dose .... to gauge the trough levels of the wave. Typically, they do not want to see "low" numbers (500-700), and would want to see something around 800-1000.

Yeah, b/c a lot of the clinics exist to write test scrips. It's like when medical pot cards were a thing (and now with Test and ADHD scrips) they'd provide clear read-between-the-lines information on how to "pass".

[cole]

in april i measured total at 960, free 215 on 40mg every 3 days. bumped up the dose to 60mg every 3 days and jsut got labs back total 660 and free 170. not sure why my levels would be lower at a higher dose. both test times were 8am, before breakfast and just before injection on injection day, so presumably in trough.

i had the first lab done 6 weeks after starting, so maybe my body was still producing its own as well as the trt? otherwise i dont know why it would be higher at a lower dose.

anyone with similar experience?

[Hardartery]

in april i measured total at 960, free 215 on 40mg every 3 days. bumped up the dose to 60mg every 3 days and jsut got labs back total 660 and free 170. not sure why my levels would be lower at a higher dose. both test times were 8am, before breakfast and just before injection on injection day, so presumably in trough.

i had the first lab done 6 weeks after starting, so maybe my body was still producing its own as well as the trt? otherwise i dont know why it would be higher at a lower dose.

anyone with similar experience?

At 6 weeks you may have had physical production still going, it wouldn't be a crazy thing. Time of day is irrelevant at this point for your testing, that only matters when measuring natural production becomes it peaks and troughs over the day as opposed to injection timing controlling the peaks and troughs. Your trough is also not going to be particularly pronounced on a three times a week injection schedule. How long have you been on the higher dose? It takes 6 weeks to level that out to where it actually will be, and it should be noted that your free T should go up a little over time at higher doses - total T staying the same it should still climb as your SHBG drops from the higher T levels. That is what happens normally in an otherwise normally functioning body, it's a normal response. I don't know what the lab range is, but I am curious why you would up the dose if you were at 960, given that that is probably at the high end of the given range of that lab?

Side note, I typically run 460 or so on a 300-900 range I believe, I would have to look to make sure but I think that is the range for the lab I sue most of the time. Don't get pressured into the "More is better" mentality, it isn't likely to do anything for you, just sit at whatever level feels good and ignore the "Optimization" bullshit.

[cole]

@Hardartery ive been at the higher dose now for about 12 weeks. interestingly my free T went down from like 215 to 170 on a higher dose. also E2 went from 35 to 42, which is near top of the normal range. lab range is 300-900.

the reason i went up from 960 was that i was handling it well and it was only 80mg/wk, which is a low dose. so i wanted to see if i could get "more" benefit. i dont feel any better at 120mg/wk, so i was gonna drop back down to 80 but now that myh labs came back 30% lower T than before, I may try to up to 160/wk. i was at 350-400 natural so if im gonna do this trt thing i would like to be at least double my natural production.

although at this point i am at month 9/12 and its looking more and more like after 1 year i may end the experiement. i appreciate your input. im just baffled as to why the numbers would be that much lower at a higher dose

[Hardartery]

@Hardartery ive been at the higher dose now for about 12 weeks. interestingly my free T went down from like 215 to 170 on a higher dose. also E2 went from 35 to 42, which is near top of the normal range. lab range is 300-900.

the reason i went up from 960 was that i was handling it well and it was only 80mg/wk, which is a low dose. so i wanted to see if i could get "more" benefit. i dont feel any better at 120mg/wk, so i was gonna drop back down to 80 but now that myh labs came back 30% lower T than before, I may try to up to 160/wk. i was at 350-400 natural so if im gonna do this trt thing i would like to be at least double my natural production.

although at this point i am at month 9/12 and its looking more and more like after 1 year i may end the experiement. i appreciate your input. im just baffled as to why the numbers would be that much lower at a higher dose

I wouldn't drop down, I would have waited a little longer maybe before upping the dose, but I think you are right that you still had natural production going at 6 weeks and don't now. It will still change a little over the next couple of weeks, but I would be slow to adjust anything. Just speaking from personal experience. If you feel good, you probably won't notice anything wonderful from minor adjustments in TRT dose. Jump up to a cycle, like 500 mg, and you'll feel amazing, but the negatives come with higher doses and if you don't want to play with supernatural numbers (I don't, but I'm not telling other people what to do) then it isn't worth screwing with anything once you feel good.

[Hanley]

the reason i went up from 960 was that i was handling it well and it was only 80mg/wk, which is a low dose. so i wanted to see if i could get "more" benefit.

Cole, wtf are you doing?

Will you quit trying to push "legit" therapeutic dosages for performance benefit? Just run a performance cycle. I absolutely would, but I've got clear cardio risks. I/you have put plenty of time in the natty trenches

[cole]

the reason i went up from 960 was that i was handling it well and it was only 80mg/wk, which is a low dose. so i wanted to see if i could get "more" benefit.

Cole, wtf are you doing?

Will you quit trying to push "legit" therapeutic dosages for performance benefit? Just run a performance cycle. I absolutely would, but I've got clear cardio risks. I/you have put plenty of time in the natty trenches

I want to. Maybe Ill just save up a few viles and then go ape shit.

How would you, theoretically, cycle back and forth between perfomance cycles and a return to natural production?

[Hanley]

How would you, theoretically, cycle back and forth between perfomance cycles and a return to natural production?

I'm definitely not an authority on that (and genuinely have never tried it), so I don't want to give advice. But I can point to this as a respected reference:

https://a.co/d/0ntkrvP

But I've definitely coached plenty of dudes who've blasted and cruised (I strongly support gender-affirming care for those who identify as strongly masculine). Shit sure works.

[Hardartery]

the reason i went up from 960 was that i was handling it well and it was only 80mg/wk, which is a low dose. so i wanted to see if i could get "more" benefit.

Cole, wtf are you doing?

Will you quit trying to push "legit" therapeutic dosages for performance benefit? Just run a performance cycle. I absolutely would, but I've got clear cardio risks. I/you have put plenty of time in the natty trenches

I want to. Maybe Ill just save up a few viles and then go ape shit.

How would you, theoretically, cycle back and forth between perfomance cycles and a return to natural production?

Standard practice would be a PCT, which requires Nolvadex/Tamoxifen or Clomid. HCG also can be useful for this in it's own way. Or you can just stop and wait for it to pick up on it's own and lose everything gained from this theoretical cycle, theoretically speaking, asking for a friend.... Anyway, you use one of those drugs for a short regimen to restart your production by tricking the system a bit. But, that is leaving behind TRT and legal usage. There are guys on TRT that "Blast and cruise", which would be running a performance cycle and then dropping back to TRT dose. It should be noted that all of the above should involve blood work and can definitely involve varying levels of health risk that should be taken seriously.

[cole]

I almost think it would be better, safer, and more pleasant in general to just ride the trt train but keep my levels high, like 1200 ish. I think over 10 years at that steady level would be more productive than going on and off cycles....which seem to be inherently unhealthy.

[Hanley]

ride the trt train but keep my levels high, like 1200 ish.

Eh. Perhaps.

I was at/near that level on 2x100mg of test cyp a week. It was fine for a couple of months, then my blood pressure went absolutely haywire (like 180/115ish at peak bad).

Certainly my n=1 doesn’t apply to you…but…use caution.

[TornAlien]

I've been on TRT for a while and found that keeping my levels consistent works best for me. While it's tempting to push for higher numbers or cycle on and off, I've found that maintaining a steady level is more sustainable and beneficial in the long run.

[cole]

I've been on TRT for a while and found that keeping my levels consistent works best for me. While it's tempting to push for higher numbers or cycle on and off, I've found that maintaining a steady level is more sustainable and beneficial in the long run.

what level do you find id best for you? did you end up w side effects and lowering down a bit or how did you find the right spot?

[DanCR]

I've been on TRT for a while and found that keeping my levels consistent works best for me. While it's tempting to push for higher numbers or cycle on and off, I've found that maintaining a steady level is more sustainable and beneficial in the long run.

what level do you find id best for you? did you end up w side effects and lowering down a bit or how did you find the right spot?

It's a bot that just regurgitates what others have written. Although, oddly, after all this time it finally posted a somewhat original thought in the gardening thread.

[cole]

It's a bot that just regurgitates what others have written. Although, oddly, after all this time it finally posted a somewhat original thought in the gardening thread.

weird. whats the point of that? AI trying to take over forums lol

[DanCR]

It's a bot that just regurgitates what others have written. Although, oddly, after all this time it finally posted a somewhat original thought in the gardening thread.

weird. whats the point of that? AI trying to take over forums lol

Ha, I've asked that same question regarding this account/bot a few times. I keep waiting for the sales pitch and it never comes.

[Hardartery]

It's a bot that just regurgitates what others have written. Although, oddly, after all this time it finally posted a somewhat original thought in the gardening thread.

weird. whats the point of that? AI trying to take over forums lol

Ha, I've asked that same question regarding this account/bot a few times. I keep waiting for the sales pitch and it never comes.

Maybe it's just product development, or even a solo programmer working on some new bot tech that he/she can sell to a big tech.