asdf wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:26 pm
DirtyRed wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:32 pm
The point is, there is still exactly zero reason to ever high bar squat, ever, beyond one's own incompetence rendering them unable to do so.
High-bar back squats allow you to use the exact same stance as your front squats, which if you're a weightlifter is the same as your clean and snatch catch. The advantage is that you can use a lot more weight. The mechanics (torso angle, hip and knee movement) can be very similar to front squats (clean recovery) and hence much more sport-specific. High-bar places zero stress on your shoulders and elbows.
But yeah, other than all that,
zero reason to ever high bar.
You know what mimics the snatch catch and the clean catch better than bastardized back squats? Overhead squats and front squats, respectively. Do those if you want to train "specificity."
Assclown wrote:BUTBUTBUT, HIGH BAR LETS YOU USE MORE WEIGHT!!1!
You know what lets you use even more weight (provided you aren't an incompetent baby and can actually do it)? Low bar squatting! Low bar squatting lets you use more weight than high bar for the same reason high bar lets you use more weight than front squats. Because it allows you a flatter back angle, and thus more hamstring involvement. Which, you may be saying, isn't something you want. Well then,
you want front squats.
There is absolutely no logic that can be used in support of high bar squats for "weight"lifters that can't be better used in support of something else. I couldn't really argue against weightlifters never or very rarely back squatting, instead doing deadlifts and front squats for the related strength, and overhead squats to improve snatch recovery. I'd do exactly that if I gave half a shit about competing at weightlifting
and didn't base 95% of my self-worth on being halfway decent at squatting.
For fuck's sake, a safety bar squat would have more relevance to weightlifting than a high bar squat. At least the knee action more closely resembles a front squat, and it will spare your apparently incredibly fragile shoulders and elbows. High bar squats are a bastardized crutch for invalids that "can't" lowbar, that does nothing that readily available alternatives don't do better.
asdf wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:43 pm
Skander wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:52 pm
I actually really really really prefer low bar. It just works with my body better. I also find resources and coaching for high bar to generally suck- my high bar is just never comfortable in the way low bar is, and everyone is just like "just go down and up it's easy". And if I was really really consistent on doing front squats, it wouldn't matter, but I never am and since I know myself, and due to Olympic lifting peer pressure, I do high bar. But I just don't like it.
If you like low bar and it doesn't interfere with your clean and snatch mechanics, do it!
If doing low bar squats interferes with your clean and snatch mechanics, you shouldn't go outside without head protection. Why does no one ever bellyache that deadlifts interfere with snatch pull mechanics?
Simple, because it's really fucking stupid to say that doing a different thing is going to fuck up something one practices on a very regular basis. In the same way it's idiotic to claim that Brooks Koepka's pitching-with-a-sand-wedge motion might "interfere" with his driver swing mechanics, even though both of those things are considerably more complex than anything you do with a barbell.
KyleSchuant wrote: ↑Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:52 pmI suspect DR snatches and
jerks more than almost anyone here.
The potential accuracy of this statement aside, I must insist upon different phrasing.
Testiclaw wrote: ↑Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:19 pm
KyleSchuant wrote: ↑Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:52 pm
Testiclaw wrote: ↑Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:11 pm
I would love to know the weightlifters you've trained, I'm genuinely curious. I've gone back and forth with what weightlifters are "supposed to do" and what they can do that works.
I suspect DR snatches and jerks more than almost anyone here. I went to the rankings page to check, but those lifts aren't listed. Anyway, point is, he has probably figured some things out along the way.
Well, sure, of course. Your own development is key when it comes to figuring things out.
But if you have a collection of weightlifters who are all fairly competitive and all sharp lifters, that's when you really have an understanding of things.
This would only be true if you had a significantly large group of lifters you had training low bar to compare with those that trained high bar. If you don't, you're just slinging horseshit around.
Now, obviously, I have not done a fat load of high bar training myself, in order to compare and contrast to all my low bar training and how it affects my snatch and clean&jerk. But I have actually made reasoned arguments based in things like physics, biomechanics, and common sense, and the counterarguments have mostly been either a load of fallacies (mostly appeals to authority) or logic that supports my position better than theirs.
Testiclaw wrote: ↑Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:42 pmThere has to either be a baseline of understanding in the sport I coach, or, evidence/experience/data that's compelling enough to get me curious.
If it's just, "this guy is strong", or, "I'm a powerlifter but here's what I think about programming for weightlifters", man, jog on, I'm just not interested.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Kyle, see, THIS is what I mean when I say weightlifters are like nobility. In that they're a bunch of conceited pricks doing stupid shit more for the aesthetics of it and to dismiss others who don't do that shit in order to feel high and mighty, rather than for any good reason.
PatrickDB wrote: ↑Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:15 pm
asdf wrote: ↑Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:13 pm
mbasic wrote: ↑Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:50 pm
I dont know if it's a contraversy perse....but I AM thoroughly enjoying the destruction of Ma Strength by the Chinese National team members on social media. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.
Link or brief explanation, please.
I don't know anything about Ma Strength as an organization, but Ma himself once spent nearly an hour helping me with my lifts. No charge. I just happened to be visiting a gym where he was coaching. I think he arrived early before his team practice. Super nice, generous guy. This was like a decade ago.
Maybe this?
When
China complains about "intellectual" "property" infringement of any sort:
Murelli wrote: ↑Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:32 amSince nobody discussed what I've wrote - what about those lower back fatigue credits? I'm speaking as someone who gets a lot of lower back fatigue from low bar and not nearly so much from high bar. I also hate high bar but it really does get better after you get used to the bar mashing down your traps.
For starters, I'd suggest that things that are fatiguing your lower back with heavy weights are largely accomplishing the same thing.
If you really want to avoid lower back fatigue from squatting, do front squats, and then just deadlift until your lower back is as achy and miserable as it would have been from low bar squats. I say once again that this is a much worse idea for football (among other things) than weightlifting, but it PROBABLY won't kill a football player either way (though if you were an American high school player, I'd recommend focusing greatly on the squat, whatever lets you lift the heaviest, since that seems to be what the college coaches like the most in the weight room), and it's a difference that isn't large enough to greatly matter for the average gym schlub merely trying to stay in shape and not physically disintegrate.
ch wrote: ↑Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:46 pm
SeanHerbison wrote: ↑Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:16 am
I feel like it's a common assumption that explosive=coordinated, and I'm not sure why. In sports where size/speed/explosiveness were prominent, say... throwing heavy objects, I was awesome compared to my peers. In anything that required skill, like shooting a basket or passing in soccer, I was nowhere near the top.
Right. And once you add endurance into the equation, that confounds things even more. If you have a football-centric worldview, of course explosiveness is going to seem like the most important measure of athleticism. But there aren’t many sports with that high of a rest-to-work ratio.
The consensus best player in the NHL (Connor McDavid) had a sub-20” vertical in the scouting combine (though he did well on the Wingate).
