The gym industry in 2017 (and beyond...)

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#21

Post by mgil » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:42 pm

MattimusMaximus wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:31 am
mgil wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:53 am Here in the USA, there has been a good bit of growth in the cheap big box gyms like Planet Fitness that are mainly marketing machines and have little to no interest in fitness.

Black Iron gyms are going to fade along with powerlifting when it fades off a bit (it will) in the future. The Juggernaut gym closed for no reason. On the other hand, good black iron gyms have been around for decades and will continue but that is a function of the person running it and the lifter performance. Once powerlifting on Instagram fades, Barbell Brigade is going to have to figure some shit out.

Regular gyms like LA Fitness, Gold's, and even the YMCA basically grow and shrink with the economy. They cater to a more general crowd and have overall better facilities to do so.

I also wonder where market saturation is at for XFit. In my market, I think it's been hit and as a result, XFit lookalikes exist for a lower cost with a slightly different spin on crosstraining. Often times, this different spin involves less barbell equipment.
Just curious why you think black iron gyms and powerlifting will fade? It is more like a cyclical fad type thing? Meaning it’ll die off like bodybuilding?
Pretty much like bodybuilding. There’s always some portion of the population that is just there for the hang and will move on to other things.

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#22

Post by KyleSchuant » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:55 pm

Sigh, the less glamorous part of the gym industry: cleaning and admin. Each Sunday I have to brush the barbells from the excessive amount of chalk some of the lifters use, dust all the surfaces from the brick dust of the gym, vacuum and empty the bins, update spreadsheets with everyone's PRs this week, write new programmes for those coming to the end of theirs - which involves deciphering their random scribbles in their journals - put in the expenses and income of the week, issue invoices for new terms, and update stats of enquiries. The first two hours of Sunday (1200-1400) are devoted to any first-time noobs.

The first Sunday of each month is a double admin and cleaning day, as I shift equipment to vacuum under it, tighten any loose bolts on toaster rack and power racks, WD-40 on barbells and other metal surfaces to clean and lubricate, wipe down fans and lights, review requests for new gear, follow up on old members to see if they're still lifting, or old enquiries that never came here to see if they signed up somewhere else (they usually haven't), and a few other things.

This is why I have schnapps on my desk. Teaching people to squat is the fun part.

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#23

Post by Shane » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:06 pm

KyleSchuant wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:55 pm This is why I have schnapps on my desk. Teaching people to squat is the fun part.
Opportunities for innovation dude. Have a schnapps & squats day. Prizes for PRs on either. Some kind of wilks score approach for progress on both.

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#24

Post by unruhschuh » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:16 am

I'm nominating @KyleSchuant to turn this thread into an article for the website (which doesn't exist, but imho should).

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

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Post by Allentown » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:54 am

unruhschuh wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:16 am I'm nominating @KyleSchuant to turn this thread into an article for the website (which doesn't exist, but imho should).
Agree- it should be a yearly thing. Like the year-end "literature review"

We could do a "Year in PRs" too, let everyone submit one PR for the year. Or, even, PR of the month. Run it on a nominations basis (we all at least glance over most of the logs, right?). Then at year-end, collect the 12 PRs of the Month and have a vote for the "PR of the Year"

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#26

Post by KyleSchuant » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:40 pm

Thanks for the kind words. I'd have to expand it a bit to make it a proper article.

Sort of related... I sent an injured lifter to a specialist recommended by a doctor I know. He rushed her through her appointment, dismissed the scan results and told her it was all in her head, didn't want to see her programme until she insisted three times, and wouldn't make time to speak to me as her trainer. He charged her $240 for this.

Obviously we've all had similar experiences, and in gyms, too. More and more I'm thinking that basic communication, empathy and social skills are more important than actual knowledge in an area. Better to know a small amount and be able to communicate it well than a lot and not; and in the case of a consult, with good communication skills, you'd just do a lot of back-and-forth until you' figured out what was going on.

Communicating well, building community and relationships with people is something really lacking in most gyms. And it doesn't have to be so.

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#27

Post by mgil » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:42 pm

@KyleSchuant did you communicate back to your doctor friend what happened?

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#28

Post by KyleSchuant » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:11 pm

Yes, after talking to the member, the first thing I did was try to talk to the physician; what that failed, I next contacted my doctor friend. I'm sure it'll circle around back to the guy.

But this is not really about this particular issue. It's just to illustrate the general principle that good communication skills and building relationships with people is key to long-term success. With the gym industry, it gives rise to The Clueless Trainer Paradox - yes, they're clueless, but they know how to talk to and get along with people.

It comes down to what I've said so many times before: personal trainer, both personal and trainer matter. Do either one and you'll make a living, do both and you'll be very successful.

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#29

Post by Allentown » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:03 am

KyleSchuant wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:40 pm More and more I'm thinking that basic communication, empathy and social skills are more important than actual knowledge in an area. Better to know a small amount and be able to communicate it well than a lot and not; and in the case of a consult, with good communication skills, you'd just do a lot of back-and-forth until you' figured out what was going on.
This x1,000. Ever try to call a customer service line? There are a few companies that get what you are saying, and make it top priority, and it results in a good experience even if the person doesn't have the answer. General Leathercraft, Moosejaw (haven't dealt with them since Wal Mart bought them, though...), Osprey backpacks are doing it right, in my experience.

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#30

Post by MattNeilsen » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:13 pm

@KyleSchuant This is a neat thread. I work as an Account Executive for one of the largest big box gyms in the US, and a lot of what you wrote is similar to what I see here. There are a couple things I see on the horizon for 2018 in the gym industry:

1) The biggest trend that I see right now is the race to go digital - apps, videos, mobile workouts, "smart" workout schedulers using AI, etc. From my perspective, the gym industry (as a whole) has been relatively slow to adopt mobile technologies. I think we'll be seeing more companies developing streamlined mobile platforms in an effort to engage members.

2) In line with #1, there's a lot of $$ being invested in research to better understand compliance & behavioral modification/influence. While that's always existed, I know of several fitness companies that are partnering with social/behavioral scientists & laboratories, hospitals, and healthcare organizations in an effort to better understand compliance. The goal, of course, is to take the knowledge acquired in this domain and merge it with a powerful mobile platform. I have mixed thoughts about how well that will work, but it's certainly a big trend.

3) "Big Data/Analytics" has been a buzzword for a while, and I think it ties in with points #1 and #2. Like everyone else, the gym industry wants to know who their customer is.

4) I agree with the other posters that CrossFit probably reached its saturation point a couple years ago, but many of the big box gyms are still actively working to take back market share. I'm not a huge fan of CrossFit, but it's remarkable how many more racks/barbells/platforms exist in our gyms now as a result of their influence. Kyle, I think you made the comment that you see big box gyms trying to incorporate CrossFit-type classes to little effect, and I agree with that sentiment. I see the same thing happening in my company. They want to tap into the power of community that CrossFit harnesses, but as you said, there are simply too many members at these big gyms for it to be as effective. This probably speaks to a larger issue that, as a business owner, a person needs to be dialed into WHO they serve and HOW they serve them. Don't try to be all things to all people and all that jazz.

5) @mgil I'm not sure what I think about the black iron business right now. I work in the Bay Area, and I've seen a BIG resurgence of powerlifting, strength training, strongman, etc. over the past several years. I directly work with 22 of our gyms in the Bay Area, and I'm peripherally in touch with another ~50 or so, and I'm seeing a major trend of people getting back to basics and showing an interest in the iron. Now, will that last? Probably not. But it is interesting to see. (As an aside, I think a StSt Gym would do very well in the South Bay. Tom C and crew are to the north in Oakland, and Leah Lutz [obviously no longer a SSC] is to the south in Santa Cruz, but there's a big 1,000,000+ person market in the middle that is fairly untapped).

6) @KyleSchuant The link you posted about the Clueless Trainer Paradox was great - I'm surprised I've never come across that one before. Tons of good points in there for the aspiring personal trainer/small business owner. When I worked in our gyms several years ago, the most common advice I gave to prospective trainers was to apply for a sales job first. In personal training, YOU are the product, and you MUST learn how to sell yourself. After that, read The E-Myth Revisited - it's probably my most recommended book for small business owners.

I'm sure more thoughts will come to me, but hopefully, this will get the juices flowing.

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#31

Post by KyleSchuant » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:12 pm

Good thoughts, Matt.

I am not sure that the "race to go digital" is that significant. I'm old enough to remember when everyone was going to stop going to gyms because they'd put an aerobics class tape in their VCR. To my mind, the digital is just a glossy shell over the real industry.

Yes, people use apps to look at technique, but gym members have always watched others and copied them; one of the ways I knew I'd made an impact in the big gym was when I saw people doing goblet squats on their own without instruction, that is, enough people were doing it that gym newbies thought they should copy it. But they were doing them badly, because most people can't just watch someone else and figure it out. This doesn't change simply because the person they're watching is in a video on their mobile phone's screen.

For a while I thought digital might make more people log their workouts, we had a system at the big gym. If they logged their workouts, I reasoned, they might be more likely to progress the resistance, even if it took an occasional email prod from us. But in practice most people treated the digital workouts like they treated the old programme cards, just as something to jog their memory of the exercises they were doing, so they stopped using them after a few weeks.

This leads to online training, which is something new, obviously. But it remains to be seen whether it'll be very big, or whether it'll just replace VCR tapes and - if you want to go back even further - mail order courses. That is, will the industry grow, or just change a bit? And I think that most people will still want the community. As I've mentioned, the SSOC guys seem unconcerned that while they're getting 80% adherence from the men, they only get 50% from the women, and the women are only 25% of their membership, but I think this reflects that community tends to be more important to women in their choice of fitness stuff.

The VCR tapes were bought by women who were too shy to go to gyms in person, but this market is now captured by women-only gyms. The mail order courses were bought by males who like training on their own, and it's this market that online training can capture. The difference of course is that online training costs more than either of those things, so it may grow the market in money terms - or maybe the higher cost will keep some people out, people who previously would have done VCR/mail order. I don't know.

As for the research "to better understand compliance & behavioral modification/influence", I am not optimistic, because this research is done with the aim of making money, not of making a difference. You can do one without the other, but obviously a business will focus on the former. And so you get things like unstaffed 24hr gyms; 90% of members never go, but they keep paying. So I suspect that the real research will be in how to keep them paying rather than in how to get them to keep working out, and effectively. Obviously there is overlap between the two - but only for certain kinds of businesses.

This brings up to your fourth point about crossfit and knowing your market. A training gym needs to help people get results to get them to keep paying, a globogym doesn't. And I agree that really you just have to figure out who your target market is, and work with them very well, you can't be everything to everyone. It reminds me of what Markos - a guy who started a garage gym around 2007 and has a 550m2 black iron gym and runs a PL fed here now - said a long time ago, "I never got treadmills for my gym, not because I don't think they're useful, but because I didn't want the sort of people they'd attract."

I'm not sure if I mentioned it here, but one of the things that made me move on from the globogym was when a personal training client of mine was doing cleans, and dropped the bar from her hips with each rep. Another member got off his swiss ball, came up and abused her for it, and he was backed by management. She'd been using bumper plates, which are of course designed to be dropped. So the globogym had bought bumper plates, but didn't actually want the kind of members bumper plates would attract - dropping weights, using chalk, grunting loudly, using heavy weights that scared people on their swiss balls. As a result, the gym lost 5 personal training clients (who all quit because it was no fun anymore) and about $25,000 of revenue, and ultimately lost me and another 15 clients and another $75,000 of revenue. But they still after that spent $40,000 on more racks and bars and plates and so on.

Globogyms want the people and revenue they've lost to Crossfit and other training gyms, but they don't actually want the sort of clients and members those places get. Still less do they want the trainers those places get - trainers with strong opinions on how to train people, trainers who'll ignore the sensitivities of other members, and so on.

As for trainers getting sales training, it can't hurt. But the main thing is to get someone enthusiastic and competent. You don't have to be slick, just honestly loving it all. Unfortunately, the industry's low barrier to entry means that too many new trainers are there simply because they don't know what else to do with their lives. The fitness industry shares a lot of similarities with the hospitality industry: low barrier to entry, dominated by part-time casual work, low-volume high-cost vs high-volume low-cost, and so on.

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#32

Post by SeanHerbison » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:23 pm

KyleSchuant wrote: Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:12 pm"I never got treadmills for my gym, not because I don't think they're useful, but because I didn't want the sort of people they'd attract."
That's an interesting point. I've thought of it before, but not in that succinct of a way. In my mind, can things like a pec dec or a leg curl machine be useful? Sure. But most of the time, they're a distraction from what works, so even having them in the gym can invite people to have the wrong mindset and change the atmosphere away from what you're trying to build.

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#33

Post by KyleSchuant » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:13 am

Well, at the time he said that he just had a 32m2 double garage, so not really room for that, but he's not got treadmills in his 550m2 place years later, either. A limited space does make you seriously consider what's important. It's why I got rid of my kettlebells. They definitely have benefits, but they take a lot of coaching compared to their benefits, whereas barbells have a much better coaching time to benefits ratio, and in the meantime the kettlebells keep being tripped over.

If I had a bigger place it'd be different.

With new globogyms being set up, companies like Life Fitness will come in and do it all for you, and they have certain ratios of cardio to machines to free weights they use. Over the last ten years their recommended amount of cardio gear has dropped, and free weights have increased, with machines staying about the same. But membership of globogyms has dropped, so... now, whether it would have dropped even further without those changes, I can't say. What I would observe is that we do still have a number of old bodybuilding gyms with similar ratios to what's being recommended for globogyms today, these places have been trundling along for decades, never making anyone rich, but still making them a living. But then, they don't have 5,000 members, so they don't have to worry about trends.

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#34

Post by mbasic » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:18 am

KyleSchuant wrote: Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:12 pm
This brings up to your fourth point about crossfit and knowing your market. A training gym needs to help people get results to get them to keep paying, a globogym doesn't. And I agree that really you just have to figure out who your target market is, and work with them very well, you can't be everything to everyone. It reminds me of what Markos - a guy who started a garage gym around 2007 and has a 550m2 black iron gym and runs a PL fed here now - said a long time ago, "I never got treadmills for my gym, not because I don't think they're useful, but because I didn't want the sort of people they'd attract."

I'm not sure if I mentioned it here, but one of the things that made me move on from the globogym was when a personal training client of mine was doing cleans, and dropped the bar from her hips with each rep. Another member got off his swiss ball, came up and abused her for it, and he was backed by management. She'd been using bumper plates, which are of course designed to be dropped. So the globogym had bought bumper plates, but didn't actually want the kind of members bumper plates would attract - dropping weights, using chalk, grunting loudly, using heavy weights that scared people on their swiss balls. As a result, the gym lost 5 personal training clients (who all quit because it was no fun anymore) and about $25,000 of revenue, and ultimately lost me and another 15 clients and another $75,000 of revenue. But they still after that spent $40,000 on more racks and bars and plates and so on.
@KyleSchuant how long ago was this ^.

I think the tide has slowly changed.

It seems now a lot of these globo gyms embrace this now . . .
because crossfit has got so popular, and people seem to think it works for getting shredded, etc.

Lifetime has this whole "Alpha" marketing scheme, classes, contests, Pseudo-athletes, etc

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#35

Post by KyleSchuant » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:50 pm

That was May 2014 when my client was abused. However, I still visit globogyms (I visit at least one other gym a month), and I've lots of colleagues working in them who tell me how things are going. As well, my members occasionally have to go to other gyms when they travel or have some funky work hours.

It's the same, really, they've just bought the equipment but people still aren't allowed to drop it, make a mess or a noise, and people lifting heavy are still harassed with unsolicited and wrong technique advice; last year at a globogym pulling 180kg for work sets I had a trainer come up and tell me "a deadlift is just a squat with the bar in your hands." A second trainer joined us and told me that "as a guy in your 40s, you shouldn't lift so heavy." Last month at another globogym I saw a young woman doing some good high-bar back squats with 80kg told that she shouldn't go below parallel because it was bad for her knees. And one of my distance clients gave up her $20pw gym membership and went to a women-only gym where they charge a $300 startup fee and $50 a week because of all the guys and trainers offering her unsolicited and wrong advice; she's the only one in the rack now and the trainers have the other poor women doing a million squats on a bosu in a smith machine, but they leave her alone.

Nothing substantial has changed except the equipment.

Obviously we all hate Planet Shitness. But like the trainers grumbling in Tate's The Paradox of the Clueless Personal Trainer, we need to acknowledge that if they're making money then they're doing something right. Now, selling ineffective training may be like selling crack-cocaine - financially right, but morally wrong - but we can ask ourselves, "why are they successful?" and learn something from them. And this something is: know your target market, and give them exactly what they want.

From Pete Dupuis' newsletter that dropped into my email box this morning, this:

Walmart's Problem Isn't Amazon - It's a Lack of Interest in Who Its Customers Are - F4 reader TJ Allan was kind enough to put this one on my radar and point out some parallels here between missteps in Walmart's strategy, and trends in the world of fitness. He explained: "Traditional gyms are jumping into online training because they've seen so much written about it lately, when in reality, the majority of their current members have no interest in online training. They'd be better served if they actually looked at what their members were buying, talked to them about their wants, and expanded into those categories."

I wouldn't have a clue what Walmart does right or wrong, but I do know that TJ Allan's comments about gyms are correct. If globogyms were serving the "training" clientele properly, nobody would have a reason to come to my dusty gym with no airconditioning. And I'm hardly the only one having success, still less the most successful. Again: Australia has 579 Crossfits, last I checked, vs 530 for Britain with three times our population. Maybe Britain's globogyms are doing better than ours, but ours are obviously missing out on that part of the market.

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#36

Post by KyleSchuant » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:05 pm

Also this was good, What social media isn't telling you about owning a gym has a clickbaity title, but it's refreshingly honest.

And this is big picture, too - https://www.statisticbrain.com/gym-memb ... tatistics/.

USA has 273,500 personal trainers, that's 1 for each 212 gym members, or 1 for each 70 who actually go. Similar numbers in Australia. We should all be jacked!

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#37

Post by MattNeilsen » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:21 pm

@KyleSchuant Couple of quick thoughts in regards to your great response:

-I agree with you about the over-hyped aspect of digital. I think it's a case of people jumping on a bandwagon because they think that's what they "should" be doing. Your point about online training is interesting and one I agree with - it doesn't solve the community problem.

I was thinking more about this (i.e. community) last night, and I think it would be interesting to have a globo gym test pilot a "model of multiple communities". One of the challenges that our gyms face is that everyone is doing something different - there's not a central, unifying goal. Conversely, when you walk into a CrossFit, everyone speaks a common language and has common goals (at least in a broad sense), and that automatically gives people a sense of belonging.

The idea behind "multiple communities" would be to develop a culture around each facet of the globo gym. For example, there could be a leaderboard in the free weights section, a leaderboard in the cardio/machines section, a leaderboard in the group class area, etc. There could even be gym-wide challenges done on a monthly/quarterly basis where a community has to do another community's workout (i.e. the free weights people do a rowing contest, the cardio-bunnies do a lifting challenge, etc.). To foster outreach, each week one of the communities could host an open class for interested newcomers.

Really, it's just taking the idea of an online forum and implementing it into physical space. We already know how to create communities, but the globo gyms, as a whole, don't do a great job implementing the principles. My intuition says they're trying to make everything too inclusive, rather than celebrating differences and capitalizing upon them.

-My cynical nature agrees with your view of the research into compliance, unfortunately. While I hope it eventually leads to people putting better practices in place to encourage compliance, I think it will ultimately just be an exercise in extracting money from the masses.

-I should be more specific when I say that "trainers should get sales training". I'm very passionate about sales, but it's because I see it as an exercise in learning to understand people. You can just as easily substitute "sales" in my comment with "powerful listening/communicating". To me, sales is all about listening deeply, asking thoughtful questions, exploration, and curiosity. Communication is a hard skill for most people to learn. You know how it is, Kyle - most people don't listen, they don't ask questions, they don't seek to understand the other person's point of view...and in most cases, I think it's because they've never been properly trained (i.e. they don't understand the WHY, HOW, or WHAT involved).

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#38

Post by KyleSchuant » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:37 pm

"Multiple communities" could work well, I think. The failure so far ties into what I said about the compliance research having the money-making idea (nothing wrong with making money, it's just a different emphasis). I've seen gyms do various challenges, but they usually only do one at once. The primary motivation usually seems to be a manager's boredom, and wanting a buzz of community; secondary is making money. But both motivations tend to restrict it to just one challenge at once. "Do X and see if it affects retention." As well, it's usually just for a short while, for example during Tour De France lots of gyms have "cycle the most kms" challenges done with teams etc, and these work pretty well - but then they stop. So I think you're right that could work if you do it right.

If by "sales training" you mean "knowing how to talk to people", then I agree. But this can be got from practice as well as formal lessons. I always advise new trainers: every day, talk to one new person, and every day, teach someone a movement of your choice. By talking and teaching a movement to 500+ people a year, they'll figure some things out. I saw a lot of new trainers standing behind the gym desk surfing Facebook, and later complaining the manager didn't refer them clients. But they were 20 years old. Some life experience helps, I think.

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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#39

Post by mbasic » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:42 am

KyleSchuant wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:50 pm That was May 2014 when my client was abused. However, I still visit globogyms (I visit at least one other gym a month), and I've lots of colleagues working in them who tell me how things are going. As well, my members occasionally have to go to other gyms when they travel or have some funky work hours.

It's the same, really, they've just bought the equipment but people still aren't allowed to drop it, make a mess or a noise,
Lifetime Fitness ain't bad.

EoS fitness by my house has cheap coloured bumpers, and people were dropping power cleans, etc.

n=2 . . .




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Re: The gym industry in 2017

#40

Post by KyleSchuant » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:38 pm

mbasic wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:42 am Lifetime Fitness ain't bad.
Correction: I meant Life Fitness, the gym equipment brand in Oz and NZ, not Lifetime Fitness, the gym chain in the USA.

And I didn't say they were bad, I simply said that based on their perception of market demand, the cardio:free weights ratio they recommended in mainstream gyms had flipped over the last decade.

How members, staff and management make use of that equipment isn't up to the supplier.

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