Fixing a lagging DL...

[Hamburgerfan]

I think if someone rounds their back with heavy weights then they need to strengthen their round back position, or else they will be weak forever with heavy weights. That doesn't mean form can't be adjusted over time to something closer resembling the "ideal," but ending the set at the first sign of back rounding is a good way to make zero progress.

[OCG]

As a more long torso'd short arm kinda guy, it is tremendously important, and terribly hard, for me to get tighter than tight and valsalva more epically than the Edda. This is... difficult to do consistently.

[topfen]

I don't know much about these things, but is there a possibility that this special person just needs to pull sumo?

Maybe. I've trained a few outlying long-torso and short-armed peeps. I haven't figured out what's so fucked with this anthropometry using conventional pulling...but something's totally fucked. It's not a "weak lower back". I had one dude who could literally not reach the bar without t-spine flexion*. It's as if the stick figure trigonometry just doesn't work out.

*I first met him at a Seminar (Kyle S was there, too, as a matter of fact...maybe he knows who I'm talking about). No magic happened. Every single one of his pulls at the Seminar involved significant t-spine flexion.

Couldn't people like that simply pull from a raised position (rack/block pulls) if they are training for general strength and not for powerlifting? The range of motion and work done during a deadlift varies between individuals anyways. I assume someone who can' even grab the bar with a straight back wouldn't loose out on much back strength if he can pull with a set back by raising the bar for 10cm/4inches or whatever is needed.

[perman]

Couldn't people like that simply pull from a raised position (rack/block pulls) if they are training for general strength and not for powerlifting? The range of motion and work done during a deadlift varies between individuals anyways. I assume someone who can' even grab the bar with a straight back wouldn't loose out on much back strength if he can pull with a set back by raising the bar for 10cm/4inches or whatever is needed.

If you are training at a variety of gyms, or even at the same gym, pulling from consistent height set-ups can be a hassle though (just purely from my experience with rack pulls) depending on the gyms, and doing sumo if it works is far simpler. Choosing a pull of the floor sounds as my main pull is far more appealing to me at least, rack/block pulls inherently "feel" like assistance lifts.

[topfen]

Couldn't people like that simply pull from a raised position (rack/block pulls) if they are training for general strength and not for powerlifting? The range of motion and work done during a deadlift varies between individuals anyways. I assume someone who can' even grab the bar with a straight back wouldn't loose out on much back strength if he can pull with a set back by raising the bar for 10cm/4inches or whatever is needed.

If you are training at a variety of gyms, or even at the same gym, pulling from consistent height set-ups can be a hassle though (just purely from my experience with rack pulls) depending on the gyms, and doing sumo if it works is far simpler. Choosing a pull of the floor sounds as my main pull is far more appealing to me at least, rack/block pulls inherently "feel" like assistance lifts.

Makes sense. Getting it right every time could be a problem. I figured the sumo DL reduces the ROM and demands on your back even more than rack/block pulls. No idea how relevant this is.

[Hanley]

Couldn't people like that simply pull from a raised position (rack/block pulls) if they are training for general strength and not for powerlifting? The range of motion and work done during a deadlift varies between individuals anyways. I assume someone who can' even grab the bar with a straight back wouldn't loose out on much back strength if he can pull with a set back by raising the bar for 10cm/4inches or whatever is needed.

But why not just skoot the outlier's feet a bit wider and have him pull that way? (ie a Coan narrow "sumo" stance). "Conventional" vs "sumo" strikes me as an arbitrary distinction.

ETA: There's no deep significance to the hip position in the "standard pull position". It's determined by the form of a barbell. Standard pull position in the real world (using "real" heavy-ass objects) is almost invariably "sumo".

Just get into the safe, braced position that's determined by one's anthropometry and pull.

[Murelli]

Couldn't people like that simply pull from a raised position (rack/block pulls) if they are training for general strength and not for powerlifting? The range of motion and work done during a deadlift varies between individuals anyways. I assume someone who can' even grab the bar with a straight back wouldn't loose out on much back strength if he can pull with a set back by raising the bar for 10cm/4inches or whatever is needed.

But why not just skoot the outlier's feet a bit wider and have him pull that way? (ie a Coan narrow "sumo" stance). "Conventional" vs "sumo" strikes me as an arbitrary distinction.

Just get into the safe, braced position that's determined by one's anthropometry and pull.

It is arbitrary. On one side there's a competition to win, on the other there's the trophy of most pedant about how other people deadlift.

On one of the late great thread about pulling we were discussing exactly this, and we convinced Skillin that his friend Skittles should pull with a narrow stance sumo.

[PatrickDB]

3. Accessory work would include general back strength exercises. I would likely avoid barbell rows, but they are a good exercise. NOTE: I don't think they are a good exercise when done as a rest-pause herky-jerk from the floor as a bastardized clean. Do them just like the bros. Bent over, and strict, without putting it down. Other back work would help as well, depending on the equipment in the gym. These could be done after squats.

What "other back work" would you recommend?

[Chebass88]

3. Accessory work would include general back strength exercises. I would likely avoid barbell rows, but they are a good exercise. NOTE: I don't think they are a good exercise when done as a rest-pause herky-jerk from the floor as a bastardized clean. Do them just like the bros. Bent over, and strict, without putting it down. Other back work would help as well, depending on the equipment in the gym. These could be done after squats.

What "other back work" would you recommend?

Seated rows, lat pull-downs, pull-ups / chin-ups (assisted if available or necessary, weighted if needed), DB rows, etc. The idea would be to get some extra work for the back that is currently lacking in deadlifts.

[Murelli]

3. Accessory work would include general back strength exercises. I would likely avoid barbell rows, but they are a good exercise. NOTE: I don't think they are a good exercise when done as a rest-pause herky-jerk from the floor as a bastardized clean. Do them just like the bros. Bent over, and strict, without putting it down. Other back work would help as well, depending on the equipment in the gym. These could be done after squats.

What "other back work" would you recommend?

Seated rows, lat pull-downs, pull-ups / chin-ups (assisted if available or necessary, weighted if needed), DB rows, etc. The idea would be to get some extra work for the back that is currently lacking in deadlifts.

Why would you recommend this ^^^^ before RDLs?

[Chebass88]

Seated rows, lat pull-downs, pull-ups / chin-ups (assisted if available or necessary, weighted if needed), DB rows, etc. The idea would be to get some extra work for the back that is currently lacking in deadlifts.

Why would you recommend this ^^^^ before RDLs?

I would probably use bentover barbell rows before using the RDL, but that might just be because I don't like RDLs myself. I recognize their utility, though. All of the things in that list would be done as "icing on the cake" - something fun thrown in for the last 5-10 minutes of a session.

[Kregna]

I did some RDLs for the first time a few days ago. Had to go very light (~65-70% of my DLs) and grip was a problem even at light weights (I think the fact that you're holding it between reps makes a big difference)

I was expecting severe hamstring/glute soreness but ended up with fairly sore hamstrings but inasnely sore traps

[perman]

I did some RDLs for the first time yesterday. Had to go super light (~65-70% of my DLs) and grip was a problem even at light weights (I think the fact that you're holding it between reps makes a big difference)

I was expecting severe hamstring/glute soreness but ended up with fairly sore hamstrings but inasnely sore upper back

I'm not sure if that is super-light, depends on how strict you normally are with your deadlifts, and with your RDLs too I suppose. My discrepancy percentage-wise between the lifts has decreased a lot ever since I started lifting lighter deadlifts straight-back Tuchscherer-style.

Additionally, people use totally different ROMs for RDLs. Your percentages sound normal to me for a somewhat round-backed conventional puller.

[TimK]

I did some RDLs for the first time a few days ago. Had to go very light (~65-70% of my DLs) and grip was a problem even at light weights (I think the fact that you're holding it between reps makes a big difference)

Straps, bro.

[perman]

Oh, I totally missed the grip-part. Yeah, straps for RDLs indeed.

[Kregna]

Straps, bro.

Cheers, I did use straps. Was just surprised at how light a weight grip started being a problem compared to regular deadlift

I'm not sure if that is super-light, depends on how strict you normally are with your deadlifts, and with your RDLs too I suppose. My discrepancy percentage-wise between the lifts has decreased a lot ever since I started lifting lighter deadlifts straight-back Tuchscherer-style.

Additionally, people use totally different ROMs for RDLs. Your percentages sound normal to me for a somewhat round-backed conventional puller.

Good point. I do allow some rounding (mostly upper back) on regular deads now, whereas I went completely strict on the RDLs

[Allentown]

Cheers, I did use straps. Was just surprised at how light a weight grip started being a problem compared to regular deadlift

CoC

[Kregna]

Cheers, I did use straps. Was just surprised at how light a weight grip started being a problem compared to regular deadlift

CoC

I thought it was generally accepted they don't improve deadlift grip?

I can hook grip my max DL so I wouldn't say I have a grip problem. I'm fine to use straps on RDLs for the higher reps I do them

[Allentown]

I thought it was generally accepted they don't improve deadlift grip?

Naw, deadlift just doesn't translate to CoC as well as CoC translates to DL.
Regardless, I am trying to get as many people here using grippers, and running. That way I hate myself less for doing them.

[Kregna]

I thought it was generally accepted they don't improve deadlift grip?

Naw, deadlift just doesn't translate to CoC as well as CoC translates to DL.
Regardless, I am trying to get as many people here using grippers, and running. That way I hate myself less for doing them.

Running?

What is this I don't even...