Fixing a lagging DL...

[mgil]

A peace offering.

If your DL is lagging well behind your squat, it’s time to focus on pulling. For a person trying to get strong with a deficiency, here’s an idea:

Monday:

Heavy Squat - 3x3 and drops (5/8, 10% for each drop)
Bench - 5x5
Paused DL - top set of 3@ 80% of 1RM and drop 10% to 3x5

Wednesday:

Heavy DL - 3x3 and drops (5/8)
Press - 5x5
Pause/Tempo/Front Squats - 3x8 and light (~60% 1RM of LBBS, 50% for FS)

Friday:

Medium Squat - 5x5
CGBP - 5x5 - pause at bottom and stay between 60-65% of Bench 1RM
Rack Pulls - 3x3 @ heavy DL weight and drops

Saturday (optional but recommended):

Curls (Hammer style. Pyramids)
Barbell rows - work up to a heavy triple, paused at top, then drops
One armed rows - strict and controlled

Everyday:

Eat smart
7+ hours of sleep
Light cardio (30 minutes of brisk walking)

Notes:

If there is a large disparity between LBBS and DL, where LBBS is 30% or more than DL, reset the LBBS down by about 20% and allow yourself to get recovery going again.

[Kregna]

Might be nitpicking but do you think rack pulls done 2 days after heavy DL day is too much?

I remember Andy Baker wrote about both being 'heavy' exercises from a stress point of view in the context of a HLM routine, and wouldn't include both in the same week

[damufunman]

Just curious how light cardio is beneficial to deadlifting? Seems more bodyweight management, or at very least maybe some recovery.

[mgil]

In the subject at hand, a mid 20s male with novice type gains to be had, I don’t think the stress is crazy. Kregna, this phase would last 6-8 weeks and then start managing the pulling stress better. In this case, the pulling stress is relatively low.

The light cardio is mainly to help them get through sessions a bit quicker. Total neglect of cardio might not be the best idea even for powerlifting training.

[mbasic]

I want to see this person's DL and Squat...and press and bench

[TimK]

In the subject at hand, a mid 20s male with novice type gains to be had, I don’t think the stress is crazy. Kregna, this phase would last 6-8 weeks and then start managing the pulling stress better. In this case, the pulling stress is relatively low.

If this is a novice, why so many variations (paused deadlifts, rack pulls, paused/tempo/front squats)? Seems like lots of variables and complications when manipulating volume, frequency, and intensity on the main lifts should be sufficient and more effective at ingraining the movement patterns.

[mgil]

In the subject at hand, a mid 20s male with novice type gains to be had, I don’t think the stress is crazy. Kregna, this phase would last 6-8 weeks and then start managing the pulling stress better. In this case, the pulling stress is relatively low.

If this is a novice, why so many variations (paused deadlifts, rack pulls, paused/tempo/front squats)? Seems like lots of variables and complications when manipulating volume, frequency, and intensity on the main lifts should be sufficient and more effective at ingraining the movement patterns.

To be more specific, it would be a late intermediate. The squat selection was more like “pick one you like and stick with it” so there are really only two squats: comp and single variant.

The DL variation is specific to the diagnosis.

I’ll disagree on specificity trumping all in this case.

[TimK]

Well you said this was someone with "novice type gains to be had" so I assumed that meant it was a novice lifter. Late intermediate is a whole different situation.

[d0uevenlift]

Well you said this was someone with "novice type gains to be had" so I assumed that meant it was a novice lifter. Late intermediate is a whole different situation.

Late intermediate squat, embarrassingly novice deadlift. And I mean really embarrassing... Like, said person's best deadlifts are my bench warm-ups.

[TimK]

Well you said this was someone with "novice type gains to be had" so I assumed that meant it was a novice lifter. Late intermediate is a whole different situation.

Late intermediate squat, embarrassingly novice deadlift. And I mean really embarrassing... Like, said person's best deadlifts are my bench warm-ups.

I know who this is about. Maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention but I thought he was still doing the novice LP (squat included).

[d0uevenlift]

Well you said this was someone with "novice type gains to be had" so I assumed that meant it was a novice lifter. Late intermediate is a whole different situation.

Late intermediate squat, embarrassingly novice deadlift. And I mean really embarrassing... Like, said person's best deadlifts are my bench warm-ups.

I know who this is about. Maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention but I thought he was still doing the novice LP (squat included).

Nah he's failing squats left and right. God knows what his actual programming is if his coach isn't just winging it.

[KyleSchuant]

A peace offering.

The hamburgler is offering him help over there, get him to invite the guy over here and you can advise him directly.

[mgil]

Well you said this was someone with "novice type gains to be had" so I assumed that meant it was a novice lifter. Late intermediate is a whole different situation.

Late intermediate squat, embarrassingly novice deadlift. And I mean really embarrassing... Like, said person's best deadlifts are my bench warm-ups.

I know who this is about. Maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention but I thought he was still doing the novice LP (squat included).

Currently moving to triples and using light days. TM too late.

Also, the DL work is to target form and build tolerable volume pulling.

[TimK]

Nah he's failing squats left and right. God knows what his actual programming is if his coach isn't just winging it.

His log has "SSNLP" in the title from a quick scroll through it looks like he's just trying all the various strategies of "milking" the end of the LP for all it's worth (light squats on wednesday, top set + backoffs, etc). Whether that's working out for him is another matter, but "failing squats left and right" doesn't make someone a "late intermediate". He could probably get a couple of months out of a weekly progression like a basic HLM routine at this point.

[d0uevenlift]

Nah he's failing squats left and right. God knows what his actual programming is if his coach isn't just winging it.

His log has "SSNLP" in the title from a quick scroll through it looks like he's just trying all the various strategies of "milking" the end of the LP for all it's worth (light squats on wednesday, top set + backoffs, etc). Whether that's working out for him is another matter, but "failing squats left and right" doesn't make someone a "late intermediate". He could probably get a couple of months out of a weekly progression like a basic HLM routine at this point.

I was probably thinking in SS terms as far as his training advancement in squat. I consider myself an intermediate and I'm on block programming right now. I can't make weekly gains anymore, really. Some define the milking of the last of novice gains still a novice, which includes garbage like TM.

And I haven't looked at his log because I haven't really been on the SS forums. Banned and no real desire to spend much time there poking around, but I've heard all about him via Exodus. Sad.

[mgil]

Nah he's failing squats left and right. God knows what his actual programming is if his coach isn't just winging it.

His log has "SSNLP" in the title from a quick scroll through it looks like he's just trying all the various strategies of "milking" the end of the LP for all it's worth (light squats on wednesday, top set + backoffs, etc). Whether that's working out for him is another matter, but "failing squats left and right" doesn't make someone a "late intermediate". He could probably get a couple of months out of a weekly progression like a basic HLM routine at this point.

I’d probably agree that HLM would be where he should be if the deficit of that degree didn’t exist.

Arguably anything to address the deficit would be useful.

Also, @TimK I meant to type “late novice” but typed “intermediate” in error while standing around in Lowe’s.

This also brings up the idea that the training spectrum is kinda just novice and not novice.

[Chebass88]

@mgil - I'd probably take a slightly different approach with a lifter whose deadlift was ~lagging his squat significantly.

1. Cut all pulling down to 1x/week. Same with squatting. His squat can afford to stagnate for a few weeks while the deadlift gets a little better.

2. The deadlift session needs to be higher volume. High enough volume to get away with only pulling once per week. Solid technique has to be built along with strength. The best way to do this is with a lot of reps. Maybe a weekly rep max followed by backoff sets at 5-8 reps. Or higher rep sets (12-15 reps), with the caveat that every rep has to be **perfect**.

3. Accessory work would include general back strength exercises. I would likely avoid barbell rows, but they are a good exercise. NOTE: I don't think they are a good exercise when done as a rest-pause herky-jerk from the floor as a bastardized clean. Do them just like the bros. Bent over, and strict, without putting it down. Other back work would help as well, depending on the equipment in the gym. These could be done after squats.

4. Since the squat is okay for the moment, I'd probably switch our hero to front squats - they can be challenging, yet won't interfere with the deadlift too much. Or higher rep back squats, using the deadlift focus period to generate some high rep PRs.

5. Depending on our hero's work capacity, maybe some higher rep RDLs might be in order. This would build hamstring strength (which will help the squat), as well as the hip hinge and lower back strength. The emphasis would be for our hero to attempt to put his brown eye on the wall behind him. Perfect reps only. Any back rounding means the set is over. No ego lifting here.

[AaronM]

I don't know much about these things, but is there a possibility that this special person just needs to pull sumo?

[Hanley]

I don't know much about these things, but is there a possibility that this special person just needs to pull sumo?

Maybe. I've trained a few outlying long-torso and short-armed peeps. I haven't figured out what's so fucked with this anthropometry using conventional pulling...but something's totally fucked. It's not a "weak lower back". I had one dude who could literally not reach the bar without t-spine flexion*. It's as if the stick figure trigonometry just doesn't work out.

*I first met him at a Seminar (Kyle S was there, too, as a matter of fact...maybe he knows who I'm talking about). No magic happened. Every single one of his pulls at the Seminar involved significant t-spine flexion.

[TimK]

I don't know much about these things, but is there a possibility that this special person just needs to pull sumo?

I had one dude who could literally not reach the bar without t-spine flexion*.

Hey that sounds like me. Minus the short arms. And long torso.