Shoulder health and pressing a ton

[perman]

I've always struggled with this. Is there an element to keeping the upper back tight besides just arching, using leg drive, and keeping the shoulders back? I've never really found a good cue or drill for this. The best I have so far is "row the bar to the chest." KOTJ also suggested tempo benches with a pause at the bottom in another thread and I've been meaning to try those.

This guy's tips helped me:

I think testing various set-up procedures from different powerlifters may help you here. There seems to be a large degree of individualization in achieving a good, tight bench press setup.

[Skid]

My shoulders used to bother me a bit when benching. I found that doing a warm up 500 Meter row on a rowing machine really helps me. I also do face pulls on a cable occasionally if my shoulders start to act up. The important thing is to bench correctly. A cue that really works for me is to pull my shoulder blades together into my spine and then down into my back pockets (figuratively) when benching.

[Wilhelm]

My shoulders used to bother me a bit when benching. I found that doing a warm up 500 Meter row on a rowing machine really helps me. I also do face pulls on a cable occasionally if my shoulders start to act up. The important thing is to bench correctly. A cue that really works for me is to pull my shoulder blades together into my spine and then down into my back pockets (figuratively) when benching.

I'm going to repeat my thanks to you here for the help on my arm position in the bench.

[CoconutChris]

Lots of good advice here. I'll add that if you are using a narrow grip on Bench Press, loss of upper back tightness is often preceded by flaring the elbows early on the concentric portion of the lift.

[GrizzlyAdam]

I hurt my right shoulder years ago doing heavy dumbbell presses. If I lift with good form, it's just mildly annoying. If I grind my benches or presses it gets inflamed/impinged, and the pain can hang around for months. A while back it was killing me and I asked Jordan about it on an Instagram live. His advice was to (1) be sure to fully lock out presses with a shrug and (2) do a shit ton of chins and pullups.

[chromoly]

I have an easily irritated right shoulder. It used to be very easily irritated, and then I started adding in a bunch of extra pulling movements-- pull-ups, chin-ups, rows, more deadlifts-- and now it is just "easily" irritated.

If you have extra time to spend in the gym, it certainly wouldn't hurt to have a more balance push/pull volume ratio, a la "conventional wisdom."

[KyleSchuant]

The harm is in having to put in more rowing or chinning where you would otherwise put in more benching or pressing, thus getting lagging progress.

I've not found that, quite the opposite. Remember that many of the same muscles are involved. For example, in a chinup you're also using the pectoralis major and the triceps long head.

As well, my primary concern is health. Health first, performance second, looks last. You don't bench much if you get an impinged or torn supraspinatus, in fact most people stop lifting at all. I've not found it leads to slower progress, but I wouldn't care if it did: I'd rather a person bench X without pain than X+1 with pain.

Powerlifting programming gets seriously hamstrung if you legitimately try to acheive >= 1 ratio

I don't care about ratios at this stage. From people working with throwers of all kinds (discus, cricket ball, whatever) - who tend to lots of shoulder problems - it seems less important a ratio and more important a certain strength standard, like my cricket team friend talking about the bodyweight bench pull. Of course, they all have different standards, not just between but within throwing sports. Nonetheless, it gives us some guidance: less important than a strength ratio is the absolute strength.

I also don't care about powerlifting. Again, my primary concern - and the question of the OP - is health. A competitive athlete will sacrifice health for performance. Benching 200kg is not healthy, running a sub-3hr marathon is not healthy, ballet dancing is not healthy, swimming the English Channel is not healthy. At some point of performance a person is sacrificing their health for their performance. I'm not interested in that. I don't give advice about how to get the best bench, I give advice about how to get the best bench with minimum risk of hurting yourself.

For that, doing a decent amount of pulls seems to contribute a lot.

[KyleSchuant]

This is somewhat off topic, but how much of the benefit of loaded carries do you think can be had from, for example, holding a deadlift rep at lockout (or some suitable unilateral variation)? I'm wondering how you would do these in a small and crowded garage gym.

It can't hurt. But we just walk out onto the driveway. Bluebutton used to go for a walk down her street with a bar on her back.

[platypus]

I tore my supraspinatus tendon last July. I had stalled on LP at 192.5lbs on bench then dropped down to 170 the next bench workout. I somehow managed to tear my shoulder with the lighter weight.

Went to the doctor, got it diagnosed, and was told not to lift weights until the pain went away. I couldn't change my shirt without help for about two weeks, then the pain lessened a bit to where I could get it off myself by grabbing the back of the collar with both hands and pulling. But moving my arms was still excruciatingly painful.

After about two months of just living in pain, I decided screw it- I'm lifting anyway. I started dumbbell presses for high reps with 15lbs. Pressing hurt, and the day after my shoulder hurt much worse, but the second day after I pressed the pain had subsided a great deal. Excited by this turn of events, I worked my way up through the dumbbells until I could press the bar again. I worked back up to 95x5 (previously I 'd done 117.5x5), but I was stupid and thought I shouldn't go heavy till it healed. After another month or so of no more healing happening, I resumed LP using just the press and sailed smoothly up to a painless 125x5 before I stalled again.

I tried benching every now and then and in March I could bench again without hurting. I learned the following things from this experience:
1) Never tear your supraspinatus.
2) Presses are awesome for my shoulders.
3) Videotape my form, because apparently my bench form was horrendous and everyone was too polite to say anything to me about it.

[perman]

The harm is in having to put in more rowing or chinning where you would otherwise put in more benching or pressing, thus getting lagging progress.

I've not found that, quite the opposite. Remember that many of the same muscles are involved. For example, in a chinup you're also using the pectoralis major and the triceps long head.

As well, my primary concern is health. Health first, performance second, looks last. You don't bench much if you get an impinged or torn supraspinatus, in fact most people stop lifting at all. I've not found it leads to slower progress, but I wouldn't care if it did: I'd rather a person bench X without pain than X+1 with pain.

So less benching and more chinning and or rowing generally leads to equal or better benches then? I would disagree with that, and I know most powerlifter programs reflect my stance with regards to specificity.

Now you can talk all you want about how you care more about health than performance, that does not mean being conservative with regards to shoulder injury potential will generally lead to better bench or press performance, because you won't necessarily get a shoulder issue if you don't chin/row "enough" or if don't have "enough" pulling strength, just as how chinning/rowing "enough" or having "enough" pulling strength won't necessarily prevent a shoulder issue. Practicing doing lifts more often can in fact lead to better technique, which prevents shoulder issues.

Now I'm not saying your stance here is exactly wrong, I just don't perceive that much risk in programs that don't have much chins/rows personally, and in fact unbalanced programming tends to be necessary when things stall in the intermediate/advanced stage.

I don't care about ratios at this stage. From people working with throwers of all kinds (discus, cricket ball, whatever) - who tend to lots of shoulder problems - it seems less important a ratio and more important a certain strength standard, like my cricket team friend talking about the bodyweight bench pull. Of course, they all have different standards, not just between but within throwing sports. Nonetheless, it gives us some guidance: less important than a strength ratio is the absolute strength.

Yeah, that makes more sense to me too.

Massive scientfic studies on shoulder issues would be interesting to investigate stuff like this. If someone could legitimately correlate risk for shoulder issue to pulling strength, technique requirements, training age, and so on, one could figure out which factors actually matter most.

[DoctorWho]

OHP just about cured my chronic shoulder problem. Hurt it wrestling decades ago, and it was diagnosed before the days of the mri as chronic tendinitis and chronic bursitis, and a few other things that I think were incorrect. Hurts where the supraspinatus attaches. Couldn't throw a baseball or paint overhead. Couldn't get under a barbell, but got some PT and eventually was able to squat. But as soon as my OHP started to increase, my shoulder improved.

[KyleSchuant]

So less benching and more chinning and or rowing generally leads to equal or better benches then? I would disagree with that

I think I laid it out clearly. When you factor in the times when someone's injuries make their lifts zero, a more cautious approach with supporting exercises will lead to more sustainable numbers.

you won't necessarily get a shoulder issue if you don't chin/row "enough" or if don't have "enough" pulling strength, just as how chinning/rowing "enough" or having "enough" pulling strength won't necessarily prevent a shoulder issue.

You can always find someone who did dumb shit for twenty years and was fine, and a 20yo who herniated three discs deadlifting 60kg - I fixed one up a year or two back, in fact. This is the "but my uncle ate a pound of tobacco and smoked a pound of lard a day and lived to 98" story. Nobody cares: we care about probabilities. We strive to make injuries less likely.

Practicing doing lifts more often can in fact lead to better technique, which prevents shoulder issues.

You're assuming all injuries are due to poor technique. In fact they can be due to previous injuries flaring up again, and quite commonly due to overuse. That's why I began with the example of the cricketers - their shoulders don't get fucked up because of poor throwing, they get fucked up because of throwing 10,000 times a year. The typical national-level swimmer in their early 20s does 9 miles a day and has 2,500 revolutions of their shoulder. A day. Would you suppose any injuries they get are from poor technique? Their technique was sorted out ten years ago, the issues now are overuse.

Now I'm not saying your stance here is exactly wrong, I just don't perceive that much risk in programs that don't have much chins/rows personally, and in fact unbalanced programming tends to be necessary when things stall in the intermediate/advanced stage.

I don't think there's huge risk, either. Likewise, there's not much risk when I'm driving - but I still wear my seatbelt.

If someone could legitimately correlate risk for shoulder issue to pulling strength, technique requirements, training age, and so on, one could figure out which factors actually matter most.

Unfortunately we'll never get them, only observational studies. One of the reasons exercise science studies are almost always on noobs is that... well, if you got a dozen good athletes, would you experiment with their training for the sake of some study? Hell no, you've got a season to win!

[KyleSchuant]

Just popped up in my FB feed, from an interview with Ed Coan.

TF: What are some of the most common novice mistakes you see in lifting?

EC: They don't take their time. They don't look at the long term goals, the big picture. I'll ask kids an old question that every old guy asks: "Where do you want to be in five years? Where do you see yourself?" If I apply that question to lifting, a lot of people don't get it. They're only thinking, "What am I going to do within six months?" They don't realize that if you make the whole body strong in every aspect that you possibly can over a period of just three years, you've created an impenetrable machine that won't get hurt, that won't break down, that you can have for the rest of your life because you followed what you're supposed to at the beginning.

I'd say he overestimates it, most don't even look ahead six months, more like 6 weeks. Or at most 12.

[JC]

Background: two really fucking shitty impinged shoulders, to the point I was running SS as two seperate sessions on lifting days, cos I couldn't bench and squat within six hours of each other - arms would go weak and I'd get partial sensation loss for a few hours

BUT

Manly strong men find a way to carry on and work through, right?

Yeah, don't do that!

I been getting physio on and off for years, mostly it's generic shit cos they just guess, but for me it's very specifically lateral rotation of the humeral heads that pings shit all to fuck, but of course you tell the physio that you deliberately avoid all external rotation and lift heavy, they all assume what you need is to not lift heavy and do shitloafs of external rotations!

I get free therabands and stuff from them though (when I can summon enough UGHS to bother), but for me things like face pulls and broomstick dislocations fuck it all up

If I can bench elbows in, and close grip helps, but really a football bar was a godsend, I can lift for as much volume as I like (which to be fair isn't a great deal, I try to keep volume down and spend as little time lifting as possible, because mythical efficiency chasing), but I am also a BIG believer in chinups, pull-ups, that kind of thing, done for plenty of submaximal sets whenever you can - cos I keep the intensity low (say, if I'm capable of 18 chins, I'll only do sets of 10 unless I'm deliberately aiming for a tough set), I can do 8 sets across the day with no hindrances whatsoever to my lifting the following day - I must say though, we have a stretching rig at work I can chin off of, so I can spread those sets out across 7-8 hours if I need, and mostly I can't be arsed doing that many, but if I'm feeling twingy in the shoulders that is a pretty simple fix, for me


Ps used to bench 3 plates for sets of 5 paused close grip, I haven't benched at all in probably a year or so, but my overhead press isn't suffering much if any (although I think the stronger triceps from heavy benching might also help at this stage, frankly I can't be arsed with that either! Maybe in the future...)

[JC]

OhShitNiks, erm...

I'm pretty certain that it's a legit subacromial impingement of the [I wanna say median nerve primarily, but it's been a fair old while since I even bothered naming it], but I can also make them click and twang real loud (and numbing-painfully if I do if repeatedly) if I but my arm up and externally rotate, like I was at the midway stage of some flaired dumbbell shoulder presses, then bring the arms straight down as if I'm doing some pulldowns, something pings real bad doing that

But all I have to do is not do that, and watch real close to keep my elbows tucked and I can lift fine, so I'm by no means a real sufferer I don't think

(Btw palming the steering wheel on a lorry is excruciating when it's playing up, but luckily I don't have to do that no more!)