Trap Bar: Yea Or Nay?

[asdf]

Found an article from Ma Weightlifting that states:

...the hook grip creates a secure grip by:
1. Assisting internal rotation of your hand and forearm.
2. Producing a shape change in the hand for your thumb to apply force into the bar directly.
3. Creating a double layer of resistance against the bar.
4. Creating an interlocking system to prevent the bar from rolling.
5. Equalizing pressure in your hand to restrict the bar’s movement.

The article explains each of the five points.

https://chineseweightlifting.com/hook-grip/

Not saying any of this is correct (or that I'm right about the dowels above), but I now have answers to the question I posed, so I'm good.

Sorry for the derail. I probably should have posted this in the Stupid Questions thread.

[mbasic]

Bar rotation aside, wouldn't a hook grip still be beneficial, in the same way that straps are?

IMO, the hookgrip doesn't feel right with a trap bar. The way your hand is turned neutral seem to mute the gripping effect of hookgrip a bit. It seems the more pronated your hand the better (like in a conv.barbell lift). I have fucked around with a supine hook-gripped hand on occasion and it is yucky. Seems the more pronated the better, the more supinated the worse it works.

Many trap bar handles aren't the thin 28mm IWF oly bar spec., and definitely not 25mm for non-penis-havers.
Hook definitely work better on smaller bar diameters. If you have long fingers I guess it doesn't matter.

With a hook, you are essentially grabbing the bar with your thumb and the first two fingers ... that is what does all the work with heavy weights. In my mind "center-of-pull" is about between your 1st and 2nd knuckle. With a standard full grip (straps or not) center of pull is more in the center fist. If you grab a trap bar a little off, the bar rotates in a weird way. Not hard to do, but with a true hookgrip, you had better offset your grip a bit to compensate.

Hook crushes your thumbs. Many people deadlift more weight on trap bars because of the high-handles ....this adds to the pain/fuckery of hook. People are also using trap-bars as a sorta of hack to push quasi-deadlift volume .... basically doing more load, or volume that what they could do other wise deadlifting with a straight bar.

Knurling varies quite a bit on trap bars, from cheese-grater to almost bare. If you are used to (what should be) high end quality Olympic lifting bars .... you are going to be disappointed most times.

There is no competition trap bar deadlift contests/events where lifting barehand is a requisite. (other than US military ....lolz) So why train for that skill/ability.

[asdf]

@mbasic You make a lot of good points. Especially the first one about the declining effectiveness of the hook grip as the hand moves from pronated to neutral to supinated.

"Hook definitely work better on smaller bar diameters."

USA Masters Weightlifting states, "Men are allowed to use the 15 kilo bar (or 10kg) if needed." I don't know what "if needed" means, but I'd like to snatch with a women's bar, haha. Can't imagine how that would work in competition. They'd set up a whole new bar in the middle of the men's comp? Or they'd just have me lift with the women? Perhaps they just mean that a man could use a women's bar if starting with a 20kg bar would be too heavy for his opener. (Imagine an 80-year-old 55kg lifter.)

Edited to add: Actually, I saw a one-armed lifter at last year's master's world championships. He might really benefit from using a women's bar, even though he'd lose the center knurling.

[mbasic]

@mbasic You make a lot of good points. Especially the first one about the declining effectiveness of the hook grip as the hand moves from pronated to neutral to supinated.

"Hook definitely work better on smaller bar diameters."

USA Masters Weightlifting states, "Men are allowed to use the 15 kilo bar (or 10kg) if needed." I don't know what "if needed" means, but I'd like to snatch with a women's bar, haha. Can't imagine how that would work in competition. They'd set up a whole new bar in the middle of the men's comp? Or they'd just have me lift with the women? Perhaps they just mean that a man could use a women's bar if starting with a 20kg bar would be too heavy for his opener. (Imagine an 80-year-old 55kg lifter.)

Edited to add: Actually, I saw a one-armed lifter at last year's master's world championships. He might really benefit from using a women's bar, even though he'd lose the center knurling.

They might mean to keep at least some standard height bumpers plates on the bar (maybe for REALLY old folks ....70s 80s? ) by making the bar lighter.....to keep from using the 20kg bar with small diameter change plate (with blocks or something).

Full height greens plus collars plus mens bar = 45 kilos
....you can't go any lighter with standard height plates.

Greens plus collars play 10kg bar = only 35 kilos

Its either that, or drag out those lightweight training plates that are full diameter ..... those are actually hard to come by, and may not meet any standard.

I've seen people set a bar with change plates up on a plinth at a meet to get to standard height for kids ....but then, what if the athlete walks/wobbles around a bit while performing a lift. That's a hazard.

[Michiganian]

Sorry for the derail. I probably should have posted this in the Stupid Questions thread.

No worries. I got the info/feedback I was seeking. Derail away

FWIW: Maybe because I'm not lifting much weight, but so far the only lift for which I've needed grip assistance has been RDLs. Though lifting less weight, they're higher rep count (eight vs. five) and there's no reset at each lift like there is with DLs.

I've tried the hook grip. Too uncomfortable and didn't seem to give me much advantage. Traditional lifting straps: Too fiddly getting the second strap right with the other hand already tied down. Lifting hooks got the job done, but, if you want to do anything else with your hands with those dangling off your wrists they're not handy. Latest experiment:



Harbinger Lifting Grips. Perhaps these'll be The Ones?

Full height greens plus collars plus mens bar = 45 kilos
....you can't go any lighter with standard height plates.

My Oly bar + a pair of Vulcan 10 lb. bumper plates + Lock-Jaw collars comes to 67 lbs. - a bit over 30 kilos.

[asdf]

By the way, I checked the rules/specifications for the Army Combat Fitness Test which (currently) includes a 3-rep max trap bar deadlift. The grip diameter is 34mm, so a hook grip is probably out of the question for most people regardless of whether or not it's effective.

[asdf]

drag out those lightweight training plates that are full diameter

Yep. The IMWA rules state: "For men and women in age groups 70 and above, the minimum weight on the bar shall be 15 kg (10-kg bar and two full-sized 2.5-kg discs, with clips instead of collars). If the desired weight is 20 kg, a 15-kg bar may be used."

[mbasic]

By the way, I checked the rules/specifications for the Army Combat Fitness Test which (currently) includes a 3-rep max trap bar deadlift. The grip diameter is 34mm, so a hook grip is probably out of the question for most people regardless of whether or not it's effective.

thats funny, I wonder if uterus-haver soldiers use the same bar?

anyway, IIRC the standard is super low.....like anyone in this forum would score in the top 0.5% or something. IOW its not hard

EDIT: this is interesting (and new)

https://www.army.mil/article/264933

The study looked at the relationship between body fat and fitness levels, with the understanding that results could inform changes to the Army Body Composition Program. It was the largest and most comprehensive assessment of Soldier body composition and fitness to date.

The study found that Soldiers with a high volume of lean muscle mass were still at risk of failing the body fat assessment as prescribed in Army Regulation 600-9. To avoid erroneously flagging those Soldiers, one recommendation of the study was to exempt those who scored exceptionally high on the ACFT. Army senior leaders approved the exemption for Soldiers scoring 540 points, with a minimum of 80 in each event.

[mgil]

By the way, I checked the rules/specifications for the Army Combat Fitness Test which (currently) includes a 3-rep max trap bar deadlift. The grip diameter is 34mm, so a hook grip is probably out of the question for most people regardless of whether or not it's effective.

That’s the diameter I have. I forgot the particulars.

The Wright bar I have was built to those specs, the ones Rip claimed would make equipment manufacturers millions of dollars.

@mbasic your point about pronation and supination is correct. The more supine the hand, the shorter the biceps is going to be, which then tends to pull the fingers and thumb into flexion.

[Hardartery]

If the straps transfer the weight to your wrists you are wearing them wrong. The point of the straps is simply to remove the limit of grip strength which mostly comes down to the ability to keep the fingers curled up into a fist. I have never seen a trap bar with rotating handles, so there is no rotation to prevent. period.

If you try to pick up a trap bar with one hand what will that handle do? Rotate. The hand on the other side stops this. How do the straps remove the limit of your fingers to curl? Moving the weight to your wrists. That is literally the only way for them to do that.

Have you ever picked one up? Just asking. Or actually used straps? Again, just asking. The straps put the weight on the back of the palms of your hands, which is below the wrists, relying on the widening section of hand to anchor the loop on the hand. Picking up a trap bar with one hand is a nonsense argument, which I think that you know. The handles are fixed, meaning you are no preventing rotation which is facilitated by means of bushings or bearings on conventional bars. The fixed nature means that force is applied straight down, and that the bar is not attempting to roll out of the hand as would be normal on a conventional bar. The use of the mixed grip provides counter balancing force against the natural rotation which means that the bar is essentially pulling straight down against the your ability to curl the fingers into a fist. The neutral grip of the trap bar is biomechanically advantageous to your grip versus pronated/supinated gripping of a conventional bar in any case in addition to the fixed nature of the grips. When using straps, the force used to maintain grip on the bar is friction in the case of conventional straps achieved by overlapping the somewhat self adhesive material and allowing the bar to pull that friction tighter to greater effect - requiring very little hand pressure to maintain the lock. In the even that you use figure-8 straps, you can literally let go of the bar and still maintain it within the straps.

If you don't understand how the bar is attempting to unclench the fist of your grip while lifting, there isn't much I can do for you. It's pretty basic. When the grip starts to fail you will feel the fingers straighten against your will and the bar slide down them, the ability to hold them curled is what keeps that bar in your hand without straps.

[James]

That's a lot of words to say "straps don't hang the bar from the wrists they hang it from the back of the hand". Fair point I guess, I was technically wrong which is the worst kind of wrong. It still doesn't change the fact that the main function of straps is shifting the load away from your fingers.

Also even if the handles are fixed it will still rotate because of leverage unless your grip is so strong you can shovel deadlift a trap bar. The other handle creates counter rotational force like that of a supinated hand in a mix grip.

[mbasic]

while we are talking about straps, and how they are a cheat code for grip, etc ....

I find that the very simple textbook old style (thinner) olympic lifting straps that lifters use .... are ...funny enough ....not very good for heavy pulls for a traditional gym rat situation. AND, therefore, you actually still get quite a bit of grip work. IOW: you still have to squeeze the bar quite a bit to make them work. So you actually do get some grip work.

It was more common in the old days for the straps to made of only 1" or 1-1/4" wide material. It works fine for almost anything an olympic lifter would typically do.... EXCEPT say heavy RDLs with high reps (6-8), so say heavy snatch deadlifts, maybe touch and go ..... they slowly come undone.
Say (not that I do them) super heavy shrugs for high reps.

Everything else they are fine.

The newer iterations of the Olympic lifting straps are thicker and longer. They work better in this regard.

[Hardartery]

That's a lot of words to say "straps don't hang the bar from the wrists they hang it from the back of the hand". Fair point I guess, I was technically wrong which is the worst kind of wrong. It still doesn't change the fact that the main function of straps is shifting the load away from your fingers.

Also even if the handles are fixed it will still rotate because of leverage unless your grip is so strong you can shovel deadlift a trap bar. The other handle creates counter rotational force like that of a supinated hand in a mix grip.

I was probably being a little pissey, sorry about that. In my limited trap bar experience there was no noticeable rotational force at all. Granted, I think that I can shovel deadlift a trap bar, but I didn't use straps and no amount of weight we could manage to fit on the bar bothered my grip. The neutral position of the hand combined with the larger diameter just eliminated grip as a consideration entirely. The only reason straps get used on events like Car Deadlift (Reasonably similar and the reason I experimented with a trap bar to begin with) is that the handles there are smooth and smaller diameter, combined with usually being in blazing sun so sweat becomes an issue. Standard trap bar handles are just so much easier to hold onto.

[James]

Okay.

Edit: give me a minute accidentally hit submit

[hector]

By the way, I checked the rules/specifications for the Army Combat Fitness Test which (currently) includes a 3-rep max trap bar deadlift. The grip diameter is 34mm, so a hook grip is probably out of the question for most people regardless of whether or not it's effective.

Can the soldiers use chalk? Is chalk made available?

[asdf]

Can the soldiers use chalk? Is chalk made available?

My limited understanding is that chalk is definitely not made available and that it is not allowed, although not explicitly prohibited in the rules. The rules state, "Devices or equipment that offer any potential for unfair advantage during testing are not authorized (weight lifting belts, weight lifting gloves or wraps)."

[hector]

Can the soldiers use chalk? Is chalk made available?

My limited understanding is that chalk is definitely not made available and that it is not allowed, although not explicitly prohibited in the rules. The rules state, "Devices or equipment that offer any potential for unfair advantage during testing are not authorized (weight lifting belts, weight lifting gloves or wraps)."

It seems to me, if you’re testing outside somewhere hot and humid, and you’ve had a 100 sweaty soldiers grip the bar before you, that wiping off the handles and using chalk would be great. If everyone could do it then it wouldn’t be an unfair advantage. Idk.

[asdf]

100 sweaty soldiers grip the bar before you

Deadlift is the first test, and there shouldn't be more than 5 people lined up on a given bar. But I get your point about the chalk.

[Michiganian]

Update and Report on the REP Open Trap Bar

Unpacking, Assembly, and First Look

This is now the fifth major piece of gym equipment I've acquired. Other than my IM Super Bench Pro v2 and attachments, nothing came as well-boxed and well-protected as this bar. Every piece was individually bubble-wrapped. Everything in the box was well-protected from everything else. The sleeves were individually bubble-wrapped, zip-tied together, and boxed separately. Every piece survived shipping without a nick, scratch, scuff, or other blemish.

Assembly was straight-forward as it was simply attaching the sleeves to the main part of the bar, but I did run into one problem: A 17mm wrench is required, but not provided. My mm combo wrench set went from 15mm to 18mm, and there wasn't enough clearance for an adjustable wrench or a socket and handle to fit. Luckily, the nearby Ace Hardware stocks Craftsman hand tools and they had a 17mm combo wrench in stock.

Again: Other than my IM bench: This is about the nicest bit of gear in my gym. Fit, finish, and overall impression of material quality and fabrication are all quite nice. Some of the welding isn't flawless, but I saw nothing too terribly ugly or that raised concerns (no globs or gaps).

Using the bar.

It's everything I've hoped to realize with an open trap bar, and more. When I stopped doing BB DLs I was struggling to maintain good form at 190 lbs. I was easily able to go right to 185 lbs. on my first session with this bar, and increment 10 lbs. on each subsequent session with no problem. I'm feeling better activation in hams, glutes, quads, and back than I ever did doing BB DLs.

The handles have just the right knurling aggressiveness, IMO. Aggressive enough to provide for a really secure grip, but not so aggressive they'll chew your hands up. (N.B.: I do wear gloves.)

Beyond that: Between the built-in jacks and not having to don shin protectors: Setup and tear-down are a lot quicker and easier than they were for doing BB DLs.

And there are bonuses. Day before yesterday, taking an extra recovery day while something I tweaked in my right leg recovered, I decided to try a couple things with the bar that are in one of REP's videos and are covered in GGR's review: Chest-supported rows, using my bench, and squats. I'll definitely be using this bar for squats, going forward. It functions somewhat like a SSB. I'm able to get a deeper squat, with more weight, more comfortably, than I was with a BB. It works so well in this role I'm not sure I'll bother with an SSB.

Bottom line: If you're thinking about a trap bar, IMO you could hardly go wrong with this one.