5/3/1 boring but big?

[Robster]

Anyone run this with success? Im just not seeing the results id hoped while running hypertrophy specific programs the last 20-30 weeks or so. I feel like i really just need to get back into heavy barbell movements and get stronger. This program has intrigued me for awhile. Or any other suggestions?

[mgil]

I ran it for a little while about 8 years ago.

It’s an okay template to put on bulk. I’d probably supplement the layout with some extra work.

Like:
531 squats
5x10 DL (BBB block)
3xAMRAP lightish leg press or similar
3xAMRAP lightish rows

531 Bench
5x10 OHP
3xAMRAP lat pulldowns
Biceps/triceps direct work

531 DL
5x10 Squats
Lunges
Quad/hammy exercises

531 OHP
5x10 bench
Light direct shoulder stuff
Biceps/triceps
Shrugs

Ideally the 2-3 extra things add 15-20 minutes to your session and just provide volume to muscles you’ve already warmed up and hit. Just a few bodybuilding exercises added to the BBB template, as it were. That should fill it out okay and provide volume for growth provided you’re eating for it properly.

There are other powerbuilding templates that have come out in the decade that BBB has been around. The 531 approach is a bit more bare bones but needs accessories.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Anyone run this with success? Im just not seeing the results id hoped while running hypertrophy specific programs the last 20-30 weeks or so. I feel like i really just need to get back into heavy barbell movements and get stronger. This program has intrigued me for awhile. Or any other suggestions?

If your goal is to get stronger I wouldn't do a program that's explicitly biased towards hypertrophy (it's literally in the name of the program). Do a stength biased program if you want to get stronger.

[gymdad150]

I ran 5/3/1 after I stopped the SS programming.

I enjoyed the program, but ran into plateaus on Squat and Deadlift. I kept banging my head into these same plateaus for quite a while, and it wasn't until I changed gyms, and got a coach to program for me that I started making progress again.

And no, don't ask me about my Bench...

[asdf]

I've been running the original version of 5/3/1 for the last 6 months. I'd say that I've also been doing the Boring But Big accessory work as well, although not exactly as prescribed. I haven't made any progress. Weights have gone up, but reps have come done. e1RM stayed pretty constant. Certainly haven't gotten any bigger. But I'm old and I do a lot of other stuff (Olympic lifting, trail running, track intervals). Not sure what's even possible for me at this point in terms of hypertrophy. Regardless, I'm abandoning 5/3/1 and going back to Starr-style ramping sets. I found that having an AMRAP set every week was psychological stressful and also incredibly fatiguing -- especially deadlifts and squats. Since part of the reason I moved to 5/3/1 was to intentionally lower the volume and fatigue, the AMRAP sets are counterproductive.

[mgil]

I forgot about the AMRAP on 531.

I canned those. Not useful other than calibration, and that can be done (kinda) on the “deload” weeks.

Thing is, barbell work alone is kinda sucky for hypertrophy.

[Robster]

Anyone run this with success? Im just not seeing the results id hoped while running hypertrophy specific programs the last 20-30 weeks or so. I feel like i really just need to get back into heavy barbell movements and get stronger. This program has intrigued me for awhile. Or any other suggestions?

If your goal is to get stronger I wouldn't do a program that's explicitly biased towards hypertrophy (it's literally in the name of the program). Do a stength biased program if you want to get stronger.

Well i figured 5/3/1 part was pretty much strength and the BBB accessory lifts added in to aid in a bit more hypertrophy. So hopefully gaining some size along with strength.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Anyone run this with success? Im just not seeing the results id hoped while running hypertrophy specific programs the last 20-30 weeks or so. I feel like i really just need to get back into heavy barbell movements and get stronger. This program has intrigued me for awhile. Or any other suggestions?

If your goal is to get stronger I wouldn't do a program that's explicitly biased towards hypertrophy (it's literally in the name of the program). Do a stength biased program if you want to get stronger.

Well i figured 5/3/1 part was pretty much strength and the BBB accessory lifts added in to aid in a bit more hypertrophy. So hopefully gaining some size along with strength.

Meh. Here's my broscience. Your typical 531 BBB day goes roughly like AMRAPx75%e1RM then 5x10x60%e1RM. The AMRAPs are fine for hypertrophy but they encourage bad technique and they depress your strength by being excessively fatiguing. The sets of 10 are fine for hypertrophy but they won't do much for strength because the weight is too light. Its a fine program for base building/hypertrophy, not for strength.

If you actually want to get stronger and you want a template there's a lot to choose from: BBM strength/powerbuilding templates, RTS templates, SBS 28 free programs, Calgary Barbell 16 weeks, Candito 6 weeks, Hanley's templates, etc the list goes on and on.

[Philbert]

Anyone run this with success? Im just not seeing the results id hoped while running hypertrophy specific programs the last 20-30 weeks or so. I feel like i really just need to get back into heavy barbell movements and get stronger. This program has intrigued me for awhile. Or any other suggestions?

If your goal is to get stronger I wouldn't do a program that's explicitly biased towards hypertrophy (it's literally in the name of the program). Do a stength biased program if you want to get stronger.

Well i figured 5/3/1 part was pretty much strength and the BBB accessory lifts added in to aid in a bit more hypertrophy. So hopefully gaining some size along with strength.

Original 5/3/1 is not a strength program at all. It is a program for maintaining some exposure to the big 3 while focusing on other aspects of fitness. See Wendler's original explanation of why he started programming for himself that way. The intensity on both original 5/3/1 and the BBB add on is too low for sustaining strength gains. The 5s week you have a single set at 76% 1rm after warmup. 3s week a set at 72% and a set at 81%. 1s week a triple at 76% and an AMRAP at 86% Total 5 sets of meaningful strength work over 3 weeks. A week of Texas Method is more strength stimulus. If you are considering one of the newer versions with joker sets etc then disregard the above. I have no experience with or opinions on those.

[asdf]

Original 5/3/1 is not a strength program at all. It is a program for maintaining some exposure to the big 3 while focusing on other aspects of fitness.

I agree, but the title of the book is "The Simplest and Most Effective Training System to Increase Raw Strength."

[Hardartery]

Anyone run this with success? Im just not seeing the results id hoped while running hypertrophy specific programs the last 20-30 weeks or so. I feel like i really just need to get back into heavy barbell movements and get stronger. This program has intrigued me for awhile. Or any other suggestions?

If your goal is to get stronger I wouldn't do a program that's explicitly biased towards hypertrophy (it's literally in the name of the program). Do a stength biased program if you want to get stronger.

Well i figured 5/3/1 part was pretty much strength and the BBB accessory lifts added in to aid in a bit more hypertrophy. So hopefully gaining some size along with strength.

Original 5/3/1 is not a strength program at all. It is a program for maintaining some exposure to the big 3 while focusing on other aspects of fitness. See Wendler's original explanation of why he started programming for himself that way. The intensity on both original 5/3/1 and the BBB add on is too low for sustaining strength gains. The 5s week you have a single set at 76% 1rm after warmup. 3s week a set at 72% and a set at 81%. 1s week a triple at 76% and an AMRAP at 86% Total 5 sets of meaningful strength work over 3 weeks. A week of Texas Method is more strength stimulus. If you are considering one of the newer versions with joker sets etc then disregard the above. I have no experience with or opinions on those.

5/3/1 is a strength program. It is the distillation of what Wendler brought from Westside and how he and many other guys trained specifically for PL. The system is fine and generally effective when done the way they did it. The issue usually lies in the application. What you do and how you actually do it are different things to different people, it requires a lot of self-awareness and lifting maturity to use well or a coach to guide you initially. People tweak things in ways that might seem like a good idea but really are not.

[houzi]

A copy and paste of my answer from the other 531 thread. I ran 531 when I first "properly" started lifting, and I got a lot stronger.

Just to throw in my two cents... and not really help answer the original question either...

531 was the first program I ever ran, and I made a bunch of progress and enjoyed it. I remember I used the original 531 set up with Boring But Big 5x10 back off work. I would go to near failure on the AMRAP set every week. I remember my legs being sore constantly, and I ate in a surplus. My squat went from 130-140kg to 170kg, and deadlift from 180kg to (a very ugly) 215kg, all beltless, over the span of 10 months.

I think if I ever ran 531 again, I would probably use an alternating A/B scheme 2 days a week to ensure I can go hard on the AMRAPs, and then 2 days per week for just volume.

Day 1:
Bench Press wk A / CGBP wk B
531 AMRAP scheme, followed by 5x5 and accessory

Day 2:
Squat wk A / Deadlift wk B
531 AMRAP scheme, followed by 5x5 and accessory


Day 3:
Bench Press 5x10 BBB
OHP 5X10 BBB
Accessory

Day 4:
Squat 5x10 BBB
RDL 5X10 BBB
Accessory


This would mean one "531" cycle of the main movements on the first 2 days would last 6 weeks instead of three. I would just start with the 90% TM and at the end of each 6 weeks increase the TM as wendler outlines. Dont reset until the 531 sets start to get close to those numbers - 5, 3 and 1.
Might want to cut the BBB sets from 5x10 to 3x10, but whatever.

Just a suggestion, based on my own preferences.

[Philbert]

Anyone run this with success? Im just not seeing the results id hoped while running hypertrophy specific programs the last 20-30 weeks or so. I feel like i really just need to get back into heavy barbell movements and get stronger. This program has intrigued me for awhile. Or any other suggestions?

If your goal is to get stronger I wouldn't do a program that's explicitly biased towards hypertrophy (it's literally in the name of the program). Do a stength biased program if you want to get stronger.

Well i figured 5/3/1 part was pretty much strength and the BBB accessory lifts added in to aid in a bit more hypertrophy. So hopefully gaining some size along with strength.

Original 5/3/1 is not a strength program at all. It is a program for maintaining some exposure to the big 3 while focusing on other aspects of fitness. See Wendler's original explanation of why he started programming for himself that way. The intensity on both original 5/3/1 and the BBB add on is too low for sustaining strength gains. The 5s week you have a single set at 76% 1rm after warmup. 3s week a set at 72% and a set at 81%. 1s week a triple at 76% and an AMRAP at 86% Total 5 sets of meaningful strength work over 3 weeks. A week of Texas Method is more strength stimulus. If you are considering one of the newer versions with joker sets etc then disregard the above. I have no experience with or opinions on those.

5/3/1 is a strength program. It is the distillation of what Wendler brought from Westside and how he and many other guys trained specifically for PL. The system is fine and generally effective when done the way they did it. The issue usually lies in the application. What you do and how you actually do it are different things to different people, it requires a lot of self-awareness and lifting maturity to use well or a coach to guide you initially. People tweak things in ways that might seem like a good idea but really are not.

I am referring to the original version, as described by Wendler in an interview on Tnation in the early 2000s. I took a quick look and couldn't find it today. Specifically, he started doing 5/3/1 because he was not training for powerlifting. Later, he made a lot of adjustments and additions.

[Philbert]

Original 5/3/1 is not a strength program at all. It is a program for maintaining some exposure to the big 3 while focusing on other aspects of fitness.

I agree, but the title of the book is "The Simplest and Most Effective Training System to Increase Raw Strength."

Book titles are, I believe, widely understood to be promotional advertising and not statements of fact.

[James]

First chapter in the first 531 book goes over the time line.

Wender fat fucks himself and quits powerlifting.
Wendler gets in shape and drops 25lbs fast but gets weak.
Wendler wants to get strong again but he has shit to do and can't put a lot of effort into programming or being the the gym for three hours.
Wendler makes 531 and gets to the numbers he wants in less than a year.

[Hardartery]

Anyone run this with success? Im just not seeing the results id hoped while running hypertrophy specific programs the last 20-30 weeks or so. I feel like i really just need to get back into heavy barbell movements and get stronger. This program has intrigued me for awhile. Or any other suggestions?

If your goal is to get stronger I wouldn't do a program that's explicitly biased towards hypertrophy (it's literally in the name of the program). Do a stength biased program if you want to get stronger.

Well i figured 5/3/1 part was pretty much strength and the BBB accessory lifts added in to aid in a bit more hypertrophy. So hopefully gaining some size along with strength.

Original 5/3/1 is not a strength program at all. It is a program for maintaining some exposure to the big 3 while focusing on other aspects of fitness. See Wendler's original explanation of why he started programming for himself that way. The intensity on both original 5/3/1 and the BBB add on is too low for sustaining strength gains. The 5s week you have a single set at 76% 1rm after warmup. 3s week a set at 72% and a set at 81%. 1s week a triple at 76% and an AMRAP at 86% Total 5 sets of meaningful strength work over 3 weeks. A week of Texas Method is more strength stimulus. If you are considering one of the newer versions with joker sets etc then disregard the above. I have no experience with or opinions on those.

5/3/1 is a strength program. It is the distillation of what Wendler brought from Westside and how he and many other guys trained specifically for PL. The system is fine and generally effective when done the way they did it. The issue usually lies in the application. What you do and how you actually do it are different things to different people, it requires a lot of self-awareness and lifting maturity to use well or a coach to guide you initially. People tweak things in ways that might seem like a good idea but really are not.

I am referring to the original version, as described by Wendler in an interview on Tnation in the early 2000s. I took a quick look and couldn't find it today. Specifically, he started doing 5/3/1 because he was not training for powerlifting. Later, he made a lot of adjustments and additions.

Wendler wrote 5/3/1 while working for Dave Tate at EliteFTS. EliteFTS was involved with the original publishing, maybe the subsequent ones. Wendler quit PL because he hit his Squat goal and walked away from Westside with no interest in continuing to push himself and then he was in a motorcycle accident that basically killed that ever happening anyway. He, according to him in a Table Talk, was basically summing up what they did and what worked but in a more concise form. Louie was extremely technical and not general public friendly in his coaching or presentation. This was Wendler did to build strength, what it has morphed into now is much less a strength program and mostly a program for training high school football athletes.

[mgil]

The Wendler anecdote I remember was him coming back to the gym after benching something ridiculous (in triple ply) and then him getting gassed trying to do 95x10 on OHP.

The intent was a more holistic approach to training, but still trying to get people (agreed primarily teen males) stronger.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Are we discussing 5/3/1 as a system or original 5/3/1 BBB with AMRAPS (which is just one template within the 5/3/1 universe) ? There are (many) templates that are more geared towards strength, and also a lot of the templates actually do not have amraps, instead just doing sets of 5 all the way through. If you want to find the right template you have to read Wendler's book, and use good judgement on what options you want to take.

I think 5/3/1 is great whether you're after strength or hypertrophy or whatever but one weakness is that you have to read Wendler's stuff and decipher whether or not what he's proposing applies to your situation.

Wendler is a great coach and lifter and his system is great but I think he's a really, really bad writer and communicator (I bought and read a few of his books so I'm not writing this just to be a hater). You have to do your homework (read his books, browse reddit, discuss on forums etc). Googling a 5/3/1 excel spreadsheet and just plugging away without having read anything is, I think, a recipe for not very good results.

Also, as far as the relationship between 5/3/1 system and Westside system, to me they are literally polar opposites.

[AlanMackey]

I've been running the original version of 5/3/1 for the last 6 months. I'd say that I've also been doing the Boring But Big accessory work as well, although not exactly as prescribed. I haven't made any progress. Weights have gone up, but reps have come done. e1RM stayed pretty constant. Certainly haven't gotten any bigger. But I'm old and I do a lot of other stuff (Olympic lifting, trail running, track intervals). Not sure what's even possible for me at this point in terms of hypertrophy. Regardless, I'm abandoning 5/3/1 and going back to Starr-style ramping sets. I found that having an AMRAP set every week was psychological stressful and also incredibly fatiguing -- especially deadlifts and squats. Since part of the reason I moved to 5/3/1 was to intentionally lower the volume and fatigue, the AMRAP sets are counterproductive.

Maybe the 5S Pro + 5x5 FSL using a TM ~80% might work for you.

[Philbert]

Are we discussing 5/3/1 as a system or original 5/3/1 BBB with AMRAPS (which is just one template within the 5/3/1 universe) ?

My comments pertain to 5/3/1 original BBB, because that is the original topic of this thread.

Googling a 5/3/1 excel spreadsheet and just plugging away without having read anything is, I think, a recipe for not very good results.

Can confirm.