Two questions about Wendler's 531

[asdf]

Two questions.

Q1: What's your criterion for resets on 531?

In the original book, Wendler said to reset your training max (TM) when you can no longer hit the prescribed reps, which I take to mean: keep increasing your TM each cycle until you can no longer get your top set of 5 in week 1, or 3 in week 2, or 1 in week 3. Wendler recommended that you begin his program using 90% of your 1RM for your TM. He said that if you do that, it will take 5-7 cycles before you need to reset your TM.

But now Wendler says that you should always be able to hit a minimum of 5 reps at 95% of your TM. If you can't, your TM is too high and you need to reset.

That single shift on when to reset really changes the program. If you take his updated advice, you'll be resetting more often, your reps will always stay at or above 9/7/5, and the program should no longer be called 531, since you'll never get there.

Part of what I enjoy about the original 531 is that the reps do go down over time, and I find a new 1RM. So I don't think I'd like the updated prescription.

Further, if I did want to keep reps closer to a fixed target (531 or 10/8/6), I think I'd just use Starr-style ascending sets at the target reps, rather than continually tweaking my TM to try to stay in the right rep range. I'd progress the loads at each rep target separately, and I wouldn't fuss about the percentages of the ramping sets. My goal would just be to gradually increase the top set for each week, each cycle.

Q2: Has anyone tried that?

W1: Ascending sets of 5 (or 10)
W2: Ascending sets of 3 (or 8)
W3: Ascending to a top set of 1 (or 6)

Add weight when you can.

[Zak]

I corresponded with Jim a bunch in the past and was a member of his forum for a while. A lot of the stuff he's written/talked about over the last few years is pretty much defensive medicine. He thinks uninformed newer lifters have misinterpreted his writing over the years and given his ideas a bad name and he seems sensitive about this.

I think you have to understand the context with some of the recommendations you mentioned. He works with high school athletes as a volunteer strength coach now, either exclusively or almost exclusively. He's really into this and the information he has put out over the past five years or so is based on what he does with this population. He likes the 5 at 95% to keep bar speed very high and all lifts crisp which is important to him.

However, if limit strength is what you want and you're at least somewhat experienced, his recommendations are very different. I'll try to summarize.

Base/Offseason Period
1. Work up to your training max x1. You can take this as many times as you want, but Jokers (singles above the TM) either sparingly or not at all.
2. 85%/90%/95% set (after the TMx1) for a PR set or 3-5 reps, always up to you.
3. Any supplemental work (down sets with the lifts or close variation) can be done if needed, generally 70-75%/3-5 sets of 5-8.
4. Assistance work completely lifter-specific, you need to experiment.

Meet Period (2-3 cycles pre-meet)
1. TMx1 and Jokers as needed. Don't miss.
2. The 85-95% sets after the TM usually for a couple sets of 2-3 reps here, may have to individualize for each lift.
3. Less/no supplemental.
4. Easier/less assistance.

That was the basic formula for what he was advising strength athletes to do, and obviously these guidelines can result in vastly divergent programs.

For my part, I had good success using the "training maximally" approach in his Beyond 5/3/1 book which is now like a decade old. It involved a lot of working up to heavy singles, doubles, triples, pretty limited assistance, and very little fiddling with the training max. For instance, the first time I squatted 500 I think my training max was like 375.

The very low training max is there to ensure you can always get good work in. That's part of the basis for the "5 reps at 95%" thing. I.e., on your shittiest day you can complete the program minimum.

I don't use Jim's methodology anymore but for the most part it was good to me.

[Philbert]

I think Wendler's programming suffers from being branded 531. 531 was originally Wendler's own program for maintaining some exposure to SBD while taking a break from powerlifting and focusing on other aspects of fitness. As such, it required a lot of modification to be good for anything else. Trying to keep the 5,3,1 as a meaningful part of the program leads to some strange descriptions of otherwise reasonable programming.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Base/Offseason Period
1. Work up to your training max x1. You can take this as many times as you want, but Jokers (singles above the TM) either sparingly or not at all.
2. 85%/90%/95% set (after the TMx1) for a PR set or 3-5 reps, always up to you.
3. Any supplemental work (down sets with the lifts or close variation) can be done if needed, generally 70-75%/3-5 sets of 5-8.
4. Assistance work completely lifter-specific, you need to experiment.

Interesting. In RPE-speak something like 1@8 5@9 5x5x75% and the 1@8 weight is basically your training max. It's funny how training methodologies are so similar in the end.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

I think Wendler's programming suffers from being branded 531. 531 was originally Wendler's own program for maintaining some exposure to SBD while taking a break from powerlifting and focusing on other aspects of fitness. As such, it required a lot of modification to be good for anything else. Trying to keep the 5,3,1 as a meaningful part of the program leads to some strange descriptions of otherwise reasonable programming.

I think a lot of the more recent templates don't even have sets of 5,3,1 anymore, it's just sets of 5 all the way. Technically it should be called Wendler's 5/5/5 but I guess it sounds a bit funny.

[AlanMackey]

Two questions.

Q1: What's your criterion for resets on 531?

In the original book, Wendler said to reset your training max (TM) when you can no longer hit the prescribed reps, which I take to mean: keep increasing your TM each cycle until you can no longer get your top set of 5 in week 1, or 3 in week 2, or 1 in week 3. Wendler recommended that you begin his program using 90% of your 1RM for your TM. He said that if you do that, it will take 5-7 cycles before you need to reset your TM.

But now Wendler says that you should always be able to hit a minimum of 5 reps at 95% of your TM. If you can't, your TM is too high and you need to reset.

That single shift on when to reset really changes the program. If you take his updated advice, you'll be resetting more often, your reps will always stay at or above 9/7/5, and the program should no longer be called 531, since you'll never get there.

Part of what I enjoy about the original 531 is that the reps do go down over time, and I find a new 1RM. So I don't think I'd like the updated prescription.

Further, if I did want to keep reps closer to a fixed target (531 or 10/8/6), I think I'd just use Starr-style ascending sets at the target reps, rather than continually tweaking my TM to try to stay in the right rep range. I'd progress the loads at each rep target separately, and I wouldn't fuss about the percentages of the ramping sets. My goal would just be to gradually increase the top set for each week, each cycle.

Q2: Has anyone tried that?

W1: Ascending sets of 5 (or 10)
W2: Ascending sets of 3 (or 8)
W3: Ascending to a top set of 1 (or 6)

Add weight when you can.

If I recall correctly, Wender's lastest advice is to follow a 5sPro progression (all sets are five reps) using 80%-85% as your TM (or even lower percentages).

5/3/1 5s Pro + 5x5 FSL is a nice, low fatigue template worth exploring.

[augeleven]

If I recall correctly, Wender's lastest advice is to follow a 5sPro progression (all sets are five reps) using 80%-85% as your TM (or even lower percentages).

5/3/1 5s Pro + 5x5 FSL is a nice, low fatigue template worth exploring.

For 80% tm, the first week’s workload would be 5x62% of actual max, then 5x5 at 52%. I tried 5s pro 5x5 FSL at 90% and lost strength rapidly. Maybe this approach for slow twitchers?

[asdf]

I think you have to understand the context with some of the recommendations you mentioned.

I appreciate your detailed response and perspective. I have no problem with program variations. It's just unfortunate that in this case the program was named after a rep scheme, which has since been abandoned. Personally, I think he should have renamed his variation "10/8/6", similar to how someone else created a variation named 8/6/3.

[AlanMackey]

For 80% tm, the first week’s workload would be 5x62% of actual max, then 5x5 at 52%. I tried 5s pro 5x5 FSL at 90% and lost strength rapidly. Maybe this approach for slow twitchers?

Not a peaking program, for sure, but I like to slowly nudge my weights up.

[houzi]

Just to throw in my two cents... and not really help answer the original question either...

531 was the first program I ever ran, and I made a bunch of progress and enjoyed it. I remember I used the original 531 set up with Boring But Big 5x10 back off work. I would go to near failure on the AMRAP set every week. I remember my legs being sore constantly, and I ate in a surplus. My squat went from 130-140kg to 170kg, and deadlift from 180kg to (a very ugly) 215kg, all beltless, over the span of 10 months.

I think if I ever ran 531 again, I would probably use an alternating A/B scheme 2 days a week to ensure I can go hard on the AMRAPs, and then 2 days per week for just volume.

Day 1:
Bench Press wk A / CGBP wk B
531 AMRAP scheme, followed by 5x5 and accessory

Day 2:
Squat wk A / Deadlift wk B
531 AMRAP scheme, followed by 5x5 and accessory


Day 3:
Bench Press 5x10 BBB
OHP 5X10 BBB
Accessory

Day 4:
Squat 5x10 BBB
RDL 5X10 BBB
Accessory


This would mean one "531" cycle of the main movements on the first 2 days would last 6 weeks instead of three. I would just start with the 90% TM and at the end of each 6 weeks increase the TM as wendler outlines. Dont reset until the 531 sets start to get close to those numbers - 5, 3 and 1.
Might want to cut the BBB sets from 5x10 to 3x10, but whatever.

Just a suggestion, based on my own preferences.

[asdf]

Dont reset until the 531 sets start to get close to those numbers - 5, 3 and 1.

You did answer the original question! Interesting arrangement. Thanks for your input.