Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 7:26 am
Leaving false strength conventions behind
https://www.exodus-strength.com/forum/
Bollocks to this nonsense.ChasingCurls69 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:10 amHamas does have agency, but the way they are using civilians as "human shields" is inherently a passive action. They are baiting Israel into committing war crimes and ruining Israel's public image in the international community. Israel could just not take the bait, but they are in 9/11 mode.
Israel's stated goal is to eliminate Hamas, even if it takes a genocide. They've occupied Gaza for almost two decades and now they decide it's the time to indiscriminately bomb to tunnel network.
Should US leadership that authorized the carpet bombings, fire bombings, and nuclear bombings of cities in WW2 be trialed for war crimes? They did have a military objective: lower enemy morale.
Do you really believe Hamas would be satisfied with that?mikeylikey wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 7:26 amBesides letting the citizens of Gaza have basic human, civil and economic rights... obvs.
Reasonable take. I think Hamas has to turn over all of the hostages for this to stick.mikeylikey wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 7:39 am RE: this truce. I'm going out on a limb and saying I think major hostilities are probably over, for at least a couple years.
Murdering 1400 civilians and taking hundreds of hostages is not being passive.ChasingCurls69 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:10 am Hamas does have agency, but the way they are using civilians as "human shields" is inherently a passive action.
The goal is not to satsify Hamas. The goal is for Hamas not to exist, as you said. Can't be unsatisfied if you don't exist.
You seem to be implying that it is Israel that is denying them this, rather than Hamas and the PA, which have been governing them for 15+ years.mikeylikey wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 9:38 am I think the best way for Hamas not to exist is to give Palestinians human, civil and economic rights.
Agreed.mikeylikey wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 9:38 amI think the best way for Hamas not to exist is to give Palestinians human, civil and economic rights.
Not only would I imply this, I would readily state it as an affirmative proposition.JonA wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:25 amYou seem to be implying that it is Israel that is denying them this,mikeylikey wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 9:38 am I think the best way for Hamas not to exist is to give Palestinians human, civil and economic rights.
Hamas is at best responsible for some of the internal administrative functions in Gaza.
aurelius wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 11:51 amAgreed.mikeylikey wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 9:38 amI think the best way for Hamas not to exist is to give Palestinians human, civil and economic rights.
Devil's advocate: Hamas leadership is decimated and operational capacity significantly reduced for the next 5+ years. Which actually puts Israel in a better position to achieve a political victory (what you are describing). Israel now essentially occupies north Gaza. It has the opportunity to implement a Marshall Plan of its own in Northern Gaza. Leading to an independent Northern Gaza. This is a 20+ year plan (the Marshall Plan wasn't an overnight success). But Israel is in a better position to implement this today than before October 7th.
Now is that Israel's plan? I don't know. It would require a level of political wherewithal and empathy towards Gazans Israel has yet to demonstrate in this decades long conflict.
Hamas rules within the Gaza strip. Yes, Israel controls the border and (some would say illegally) limits what crosses that border. Yet somehow Hamas has gotten thousands of rockets, firearms, and such through. Hamas has ruled the Gaza strip through terror, extortion, and violence for 17 years.mikeylikey wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:14 pmHamas is at best responsible for some of the internal administrative functions in Gaza.
aurelius wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:11 pmHamas rules within the Gaza strip. Yes, Israel controls the border and (some would say illegally) limits what crosses that border. Yet somehow Hamas has gotten thousands of rockets, firearms, and such through. Hamas has ruled the Gaza strip through terror, extortion, and violence for 17 years.mikeylikey wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:14 pmHamas is at best responsible for some of the internal administrative functions in Gaza.
Hamas itself, a 30,000 person organization, is relatively wealthy while the majority of the Gazans live in poverty:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza ... rcna121099
An overview of the billions in aid given by the international community:
https://apnews.com/article/business-mid ... 9f4fae6a90
Under Hamas rule the Gaza strip has deteriorated and the plight of the Gazans worsened. To make your point from the other direction, imagine if Hamas their resources had focused on building a viable economy, infrastructure, civil services, and schools when they took over in 2007. Where would the Gaza strip be today?
This simply isn't true. Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip in 2006. It does not have a presence within the Gaza Strip. I agree that Israel controls Gaza's borders and limits the mobility of Gazans. But prior to this military action there was not an Israeli presence within the Gaza strip. Hamas had complete control of all resources, civil services, the economy, and on and on...Hamas rules within the Gaza strip. One of the articles I posted describes how Hamas levies taxes and fees to generate a $450 million per year income from the Gaza strip. I don't know how Hamas accomplishes the October 7th attack if Israel is in control of the Gaza strip. You describe it as a prison...well whose fault is that? Certainly Israel has some liability but Hamas has been in control for 17 years, been given billions in aid, what has it done to improve the Gaza strip?mikeylikey wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:23 pmSaying Hamas 'governs' Gaza is like saying the Crips 'govern' San Quentin prison. It touches a part of the truth but it is far from the full story.
You say that like it's a minor thing... imagine if Canada controlled the coming and going of Americans.
I don't mean to downplay the role of Hamas in Gaza, it is substantial at least with respect to those aspects of life there where they have power. Again, Israel controls many aspects which are as, or more, fundamental to basic human rights and dignity of the people.Maybe we are quibbling but I feel like you are seriously downplaying the Hamas rule in the Gaza strip. They aren't a gang. Hamas is an elected government that came into power in 2007.
aurelius wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 7:49 amBollocks to this nonsense.ChasingCurls69 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:10 amHamas does have agency, but the way they are using civilians as "human shields" is inherently a passive action. They are baiting Israel into committing war crimes and ruining Israel's public image in the international community. Israel could just not take the bait, but they are in 9/11 mode.
Israel's stated goal is to eliminate Hamas, even if it takes a genocide. They've occupied Gaza for almost two decades and now they decide it's the time to indiscriminately bomb to tunnel network.
--Genocide (the implication is the elimination of the Gazan population)? 10,000-15,000 out of 2,000,000 Gazans have been killed as collateral damage in one of the highest per capita density urban areas on the planet. We can have all kinds of discussion regarding proportionality and ethics but to pretend this is a pogrom to wipe out the Gazans is a farce.
--Hand waiving Hamas tactics as 'passive' is just so much bullshit.
--Israel decided to attack the Gaza strip all of a sudden? Israel turned over internal control to Gazans 20 years ago. Hamas seized control. Israel is now responding to a targeted attack by Hamas on their civilian population on October 7th. Why didn't Israel attack the preceding 20 years? Because Hamas didn't attack them!
These narratives and arguments running wild on social media are fraught with bias, taking agency away from Hamas, and simply dishonest.
10-15k people, over half of whom are women and children, in the most densely populated location on earth with an average age of 19 years old. Killing .5-75% of the total population in less than 2 months is still fucking insane on Israel's part. ~1.7 million are displaced on top of that
Israel "handed over" control of Gaza to Hamas and yet still controls their borders (with Egypt) including along the sea, controls their access to fuel, water, and electricity (which they cut off to fuck with the ones they haven't outright bombed yet, and didn't reinstate out of the kindness of their hearts). Israel is toeing the line as much as they can, and by the actual definitions of genocide that were brought up earlier in this thread, their actions in Gaza 100% qualify.
Hamas' agency is only limited insofar as they have a weird psuedo-government in a psuedo-nation that has minimal outside support.
I heard on a podcast the other day that, controlling for population size, the 10/7 attacks would be comparable to if 9/11 had killed 30,000 Americans. And the Israeli attacks on Gaza, if they happened in America, would be like ~ 200,000 American children being killed.ChasingCurls69 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:59 pm
10-15k people, over half of whom are women and children, in the most densely populated location on earth with an average age of 19 years old. Killing .5-75% of the total population in less than 2 months is still fucking insane on Israel's part. ~1.7 million are displaced on top of that
That sentence specifically refers to the "human shield" thing. It does not refer to the attacks on Israel directly, which were not passive and were heinous. Killing 15k civilians doesn't bring the 1200 people back or make Israel safer; going back 20 years and not supporting Hamas over secular parties because the secular parties were less favourable to the Israeli right wing might've been a good start.JonA wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 9:02 amMurdering 1400 civilians and taking hundreds of hostages is not being passive.ChasingCurls69 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:10 am Hamas does have agency, but the way they are using civilians as "human shields" is inherently a passive action.
Launching over 5000 rockets from behind human shields is not passive.
Jfc, yeah scaling it to the US population makes both attacks sound even more egregious. Things get weird with large numbers, especially when those large numbers are people getting killed.mikeylikey wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:02 pmI heard on a podcast the other day that, controlling for population size, the 10/7 attacks would be comparable to if 9/11 had killed 30,000 Americans. And the Israeli attacks on Gaza, if they happened in America, would be like ~ 200,000 American children being killed.ChasingCurls69 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:59 pm
10-15k people, over half of whom are women and children, in the most densely populated location on earth with an average age of 19 years old. Killing .5-75% of the total population in less than 2 months is still fucking insane on Israel's part. ~1.7 million are displaced on top of that
Yes, large numbers are hard to compare intuitively. A better way to put it is, basically everyone would be personally affected or else know people who were.ChasingCurls69 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:07 pm Jfc, yeah scaling it to the US population makes both attacks sound even more egregious. Things get weird with large numbers, especially when those large numbers are people getting killed.