Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

[dw]

I think this position is more common and from a more important group that Pizzagate, and certainly has a degree of intellectual rigor behind it that that did not.

O-contrayr mine friend. Pizzagate reflects the sincere and examined opinions of a sizeable and influential fraction of The Right and has a direct bearing on policy and other tangible outcomes. Don't believe me? Yeah well I looked at the comments on some youtube videos the other day, and trust me, there were a lot of pizzagate type statements. I mean, not literally... I can't like, "link" to them, or "copy and paste"... but you could tell, reading between the lines, that's what these people think. I want this to be true, because it makes me feel better about my own opinions. And that's good enough for me.

Mmm. Seems unfair since I took several minutes to walk you through how to find a ready example of the sorts of comments I had in mind. I don't see how to link direct threads from Reddit within the app, otherwise I would have. Is that really the issue here?

But more generally... do you actually believe that the anti-colonialist opinions, up the point of Israel being vaguely accused of being "genocidal", are rare among young progressives? If you think this is just made up I'd rather not bother trying to change your mind.

Another example that comes to mind is the graduation speech at...CUNY(?) I think a few months ago. Did you happen to follow that controversy?

[hector]

My preference to nobody's surprise is that we no US $ and no US troops. Good luck with your warring.

You wouldn’t support the current thing? (Presuming this becomes a current thing. Not sure.)
How dare you.

Also, we’re retarded enough to join any war. Hopefully if we step in we’ll at least postpone an even worse outcome.

[ChasingCurls69]

What would Israel have to do for their actions to be considered genocide instead of just apartheid/ethnic cleansing?

[mikeylikey]

But more generally... do you actually believe that the anti-colonialist opinions, up the point of Israel being vaguely accused of being "genocidal", are rare among young progressives? If you think this is just made up I'd rather not bother trying to change your mind.

There are a lot of young progressives who are very critical of Israel. Some of these young progressives may be too casual in their use of terms like genocide and apartheid. Depending on how you define those terms.

This discussion however, began with the assertion that these young liberals are, and I quote, "cheering the murder of Jews".

That wasn't your language, but I think if you read through the initial discussion, this direct quote was pretty clearly the subject of the discussion enough that if you wanted the goalposts in a different spot you probably should have indicated it. Hector, who originated that language, made it clear already that he intended it as a reference to the fringe of the fringe.

[hector]

Bizarre to imagine that students could so casually go from calling those they disagree with “Nazis” one day to cheering the murder of Jews the next.

This is not bizarre at all and I'd argue should be expected.

You could be right, especially if you understand college students better than me. Which I’m guessing you do.

For me, the anti-Nazi position and the dont-slaughter-Jews position go hand in hand.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but can you guys be more specific on where you are seeing Americans "cheering the murder of Jews" you are referring to? You guys seem to be implying that it is fairly widespread, which differs from my perception.

Absolutely not what I mean to imply. I think this is the far left of the far left.

This is the sort of thing I was referring to:

“ Some fringe-left groups are aligning with anti-Zionist organizations in the wake of Hamas's attack on Israel, by expressing support for Hamas’s atrocities in the name of “resistance” and “liberation.”

https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/frin ... cks-israel

[dw]

What would Israel have to do for their actions to be considered genocide instead of just apartheid/ethnic cleansing?

Something like systematically trying to eliminate the Palestinian population.

[dw]

Bizarre to imagine that students could so casually go from calling those they disagree with “Nazis” one day to cheering the murder of Jews the next.

This is not bizarre at all and I'd argue should be expected.

You could be right, especially if you understand college students better than me. Which I’m guessing you do.

For me, the anti-Nazi position and the dont-slaughter-Jews position go hand in hand.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but can you guys be more specific on where you are seeing Americans "cheering the murder of Jews" you are referring to? You guys seem to be implying that it is fairly widespread, which differs from my perception.

Absolutely not what I mean to imply. I think this is the far left of the far left.

This is the sort of thing I was referring to:

“ Some fringe-left groups are aligning with anti-Zionist organizations in the wake of Hamas's attack on Israel, by expressing support for Hamas’s atrocities in the name of “resistance” and “liberation.”

https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/frin ... cks-israel

Two points:

1. My comments about anti-colonialism preceded Hector's so although I apparently failed to perceive a drift in the topic it is not true that I arbitrarily moved the goal posts.

2. Both you and Aurelius have inserted "liberal" defensively, where neither Hector nor I nor I believe GlasgowJock used that term. None of us are talking about the US political establishment.

[ChasingCurls69]

What would Israel have to do for their actions to be considered genocide instead of just apartheid/ethnic cleansing?

Something like systematically trying to eliminate the Palestinian population.

Ah, so we're in agreement that they are doing a genocide then. You could just not respond if you don't want to give an actual answer.

[dw]

What would Israel have to do for their actions to be considered genocide instead of just apartheid/ethnic cleansing?

Something like systematically trying to eliminate the Palestinian population.

Ah, so we're in agreement that they are doing a genocide then. You could just not respond if you don't want to give an actual answer.

I don't understand. Is my answer bad or good?

[ChasingCurls69]

What would Israel have to do for their actions to be considered genocide instead of just apartheid/ethnic cleansing?

Something like systematically trying to eliminate the Palestinian population.

Ah, so we're in agreement that they are doing a genocide then. You could just not respond if you don't want to give an actual answer.

I don't understand. Is my answer bad or good?

It is bad. It doesn't answer my question because it does not address specific actions Israel would have to take to cross the threshold; you just gave the basic definition of genocide.

Clearly some people think that is currently happening, and some people don't, so I'm more interested in what would it would take for the latter group to decide they are actually committing genocide.

Or if you think it doesn't even meet the criteria for apartheid or ethnic cleansing, what additional actions would they have to take for you to change your mind?

[hector]

What would Israel have to do for their actions to be considered genocide instead of just apartheid/ethnic cleansing?

Something like systematically trying to eliminate the Palestinian population.

Ah, so we're in agreement that they are doing a genocide then. You could just not respond if you don't want to give an actual answer.

I don't understand. Is my answer bad or good?

It is bad. It doesn't answer my question because it does not address specific actions Israel would have to take to cross the threshold; you just gave the basic definition of genocide.

Clearly some people think that is currently happening, and some people don't, so I'm more interested in what would it would take for the latter group to decide they are actually committing genocide.

Or if you think it doesn't even meet the criteria for apartheid or ethnic cleansing, what additional actions would they have to take for you to change your mind?

I don’t know if what Israel is doing right now counts as a genocide. Not sure legally where that threshold lies. I know absolutely however the outcomes of their actions taken so far are horrific. And i suspect, when the facts come out, will prove disproportionate. (I may have a bias here.) The parts of the Israeli government that would commit a genocide have more of a green light now than they’ve ever had before.

That said, there are editorials in mainstream Israeli newspapers urging restraint. If a genocide occurs it won’t be with the consent of all Jewish Israelis.

[mikeylikey]

What would Israel have to do for their actions to be considered genocide instead of just apartheid/ethnic cleansing?

Something like systematically trying to eliminate the Palestinian population.

An actual Israeli citizen who works in my office said the following to me, in person, today: "I think we (Israel) should just settle all of Gaza. There are Arab countries all around, and they (the current, Palestinian residents) should move to one of those places." That is pretty close to verbatim.

Big giant "N=1" goes here, but still. I didn't read that on reddit it was said to my face.

Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide do not in my opinion (nor that of the UN and apparently, the dictionary) hang on the actual killing of a population. I believe the term is aptly also applied to "only" wiping the existence of a people from the planet through dispersion/displacement.

And for the record yes, the killing kind of genocide (yes, the kind Hamas seems to want) is worse than the scattering-to-the-corners-of-the-earth kind. Of course.

[dw]

With respect to genocide...hard to argue against that etymology.

ETA also it's historical origin in 1944 per Google.

[aurelius]

An actual Israeli citizen who works in my office said the following to me, in person, today: "I think we (Israel) should just settle all of Gaza. There are Arab countries all around, and they (the current, Palestinian residents) should move to one of those places." That is pretty close to verbatim.

Big giant "N=1" goes here, but still. I didn't read that on reddit it was said to my face.

Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide do not in my opinion (nor that of the UN and apparently, the dictionary) hang on the actual killing of a population. I believe the term is aptly also applied to "only" wiping the existence of a people from the planet through dispersion/displacement.

And for the record yes, the killing kind of genocide (yes, the kind Hamas seems to want) is worse than the scattering-to-the-corners-of-the-earth kind. Of course.

By the UN definition, using genocide to describe Israeli/Hamas actions is not hyperbole. Similarly, it could be said Russia is committing the genocide of Ukraine as it seeks to wipe out their identity.

I'd also add that what choice has Hamas given them? Hamas chose the battle ground and is using their civilian population as shields. Hamas also stopped their own civilian from leaving through the safety corridors. Narrowing the context to recent events, I fully blame Hamas for what is happening to the civilians in Gaza.

And for the record yes, the killing kind of genocide (yes, the kind Hamas seems to want) is worse than the scattering-to-the-corners-of-the-earth kind. Of course.

Hamas just wants to drive them into the sea, Mikey. It is a well known fact Jews are good swimmers.

[hector]

What would Israel have to do for their actions to be considered genocide instead of just apartheid/ethnic cleansing?

Something like systematically trying to eliminate the Palestinian population.

An actual Israeli citizen who works in my office said the following to me, in person, today: "I think we (Israel) should just settle all of Gaza. There are Arab countries all around, and they (the current, Palestinian residents) should move to one of those places." That is pretty close to verbatim.

Big giant "N=1" goes here, but still. I didn't read that on reddit it was said to my face.

Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide do not in my opinion (nor that of the UN and apparently, the dictionary) hang on the actual killing of a population. I believe the term is aptly also applied to "only" wiping the existence of a people from the planet through dispersion/displacement.

And for the record yes, the killing kind of genocide (yes, the kind Hamas seems to want) is worse than the scattering-to-the-corners-of-the-earth kind. Of course.

For years after 9/11 it was inside the Overton window, totally reasonable, to advocate for torture of suspected terrorists. In some corners, albeit quiet ones, it probably still is.
I’d even hear this position argued on NPR.
I can’t imagine NPR inviting anyone on to share that view today. I don’t hear people casually advocate for torture anymore.
Which is to say that I think we became a little more humane once we were significantly removed from 9/11. Hopefully the extremist sentiment you hear now will similarly dwindle with time.

[ChasingCurls69]

What would Israel have to do for their actions to be considered genocide instead of just apartheid/ethnic cleansing?

Something like systematically trying to eliminate the Palestinian population.

An actual Israeli citizen who works in my office said the following to me, in person, today: "I think we (Israel) should just settle all of Gaza. There are Arab countries all around, and they (the current, Palestinian residents) should move to one of those places." That is pretty close to verbatim.

Big giant "N=1" goes here, but still. I didn't read that on reddit it was said to my face.

Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide do not in my opinion (nor that of the UN and apparently, the dictionary) hang on the actual killing of a population. I believe the term is aptly also applied to "only" wiping the existence of a people from the planet through dispersion/displacement.

And for the record yes, the killing kind of genocide (yes, the kind Hamas seems to want) is worse than the scattering-to-the-corners-of-the-earth kind. Of course.

Holy shit, that statement from your coworker might be one of the most egregious things I've seen in the last week.

And yeah, I think when it comes to leftists that kind of gloss over the whole Hamas thing, it comes down to the fact that Hamas does not have the power to actually do what they want to do, and they did the bare minimum to adjust their charter so it includes some social justice language and replaces exterminate all jewish people with "zionists." There's even a bit where they claim they will be gracious enough to allow jewish and christian people who acknowledge the authority of the islamic state.

Which is not a justification for them, and I spent a significant amount of time last week pointing this out to people who were dismissive of the initial October 7th attack. But that's another layer on top of the settler-colonial state angle that's been mentioned already.

[mikeylikey]

The other thing that's going on here,

Typically the Palestinian question ends up in the news, and thus in the water cooler and online discussions, when violence blows up, which is usually acutely the result of Hamas or their predecessors acting out. The day-to-day, chronic-but-less-sensational mistreatment (IMHO) of the Palestinians by Israel doesn't really make headlines.

Ergo, the only time are ever paying attention to the discussion is in the aftermath of some particularly grievous harm to Israel. And in that light, even someone with a command of nuance and sensitivity is going to kindof seem like an asshole if they take up any position that is critical of Israel or supportive of the Palestinians. And most people commenting on Twitter do not have such a command of nuance and sensitivity.

[mikeylikey]

Holy shit, that statement from your coworker might be one of the most egregious things I've seen in the last week.

And yeah, I think when it comes to leftists that kind of gloss over the whole Hamas thing, it comes down to the fact that Hamas does not have the power to actually do what they want to do, and they did the bare minimum to adjust their charter so it includes some social justice language and replaces exterminate all jewish people with "zionists." There's even a bit where they claim they will be gracious enough to allow jewish and christian people who acknowledge the authority of the islamic state.

Which is not a justification for them, and I spent a significant amount of time last week pointing this out to people who were dismissive of the initial October 7th attack. But that's another layer on top of the settler-colonial state angle that's been mentioned already.

To your point there are definitely more than zero members of the actual Knesset who would agree with that statement from my coworker. And while the ruling Likud party might not say so, I'm not sure there is much daylight between the above and Likud's essentially unlimited settlement policy. In my understanding anyway.

And yes there is a reflexive tendency to assume that it goes without saying that 10/7 was horrid and without justification, and jump right into countering all the unquestioning pro-Israel rhetoric that follows every time this happens. I'm guilty of that.

inside the Overton window,

I like this. Excellent way to characterize an what I have been ineffectively trying to describe as "enough people believe it that we should care"

[KyleSchuant]

Which is to say that I think we became a little more humane once we were significantly removed from 9/11. Hopefully the extremist sentiment you hear now will similarly dwindle with time.

This would be good, yes.

This is one of the many reasons that any response to an act by another country or group, whether friendly or hostile, shouldn't be immediate. This is after all the Middle East. They've had a fairly steady series of conflicts for 75 years, only counting those since the existence of Israel. Gaza, Hamas and Israel aren't going anywhere soon, you can wait a bit and still bomb them tomorrow if you still think it's a good idea. You could wait a decade, even, and nothing will have substantially changed. No need to hurry.

[Hardartery]

I have a friend that is like an adopted son that has Israeli citizenship and lived there in Haifa for several years (Moved back to the US about 2 years ago. I also know some Palestinians, and my BIL's best friend died of cancer back living in Gaza with his family and new wife a little before Covid hit. He was a very nice guy that lived in California and Ontario and his ex-wife and two kids live in Ontario currently. I've been to Israel, and seen Gaza first hand. Both sides are miserable bastards. The political arms/government are fairly disconnected from most of the actual residents and largely driven by extremists on both sides. Palestinians want to live normal peaceful lives, Hamas wants to kill all of the Jews. Israelis want to live normal peaceful lives, the hardline/right wing government wants to make life so miserable that all the Palestinians would rather relocate. The easiest thing to get as a Palestinian is a passport if you say that you want to leave the country. And they get help to do it within certain bounds. If you are Jewish and want to move to Israel, they will provide some fairly extraordinary help for you to do that. There is no right side to be on in this thing, only wrong sides.

And what if you are a Palestinian living in Gaza who would like to live in Israel? Is there a meaningful pathway to doing that?

Gaza IS in Israel currently. Palestinians hold Israeli passports. So, no, there is no meaningful pathway as such for that right now. It is argued that creating a second State, the "Two State Solution" would resolve that, but there is no agreement on how to actually do that and Israel is not in favour of it.