Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

[dw]

For me, the anti-Nazi position and the dont-slaughter-Jews position go hand in hand.

I think you are missing the extremism of the oppressor/oppressed narrative. The narrative is essentially Israel are Nazis running an apartheid state which justifies any and all of Palestinian actions against it. The reality is much more complex with entrenched, powerful groups on both sides that don't recognize the right of the other to exist. There are no good guys in this fight.

Agree with the bolded about the anti-colonialist position.

As for mikeylikey, I specifically see this on Reddit and the big daily threads about the conflict that are in neutral subreddits (i.e. not in r/Israel or r/Marxism or wherever). Which imo is fairly representative of the opinion of a certain demographic - let's say youngish and college educated. You are certainly correct that the US political establishment in general is pro-Israel.

[aurelius]

Interview with a former Israeli intelligence officer now analyst. Obviously Pro-Israel but I think he remains objective. What is interesting is his framing of this as an extension of Iran's goals of hegemony in the Middle East.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/15/opinions ... index.html

[Culican]

Bizarre to imagine that students could so casually go from calling those they disagree with “Nazis” one day to cheering the murder of Jews the next.

This is not bizarre at all and I'd argue should be expected.

"Where mass movements are in violent
competition with each other, there are not infrequent instances of
converts—even the most zealous—shifting their allegiance from one
to the other. A Saul turning into Paul is neither a rarity nor a
miracle."

Eric Hoffer, The True Believer

[mikeylikey]

I specifically see this on Reddit and the big daily threads about the conflict that are in neutral subreddits (i.e. not in r/Israel or r/Marxism or wherever). Which imo is fairly representative of the opinion of a certain demographic - let's say youngish and college educated. You are certainly correct that the US political establishment in general is pro-Israel.

Reiterating that I'm sure the quantity is not zero, "I've seen comments on reddit" does not sufficiently persuade that there is a noteworthy contingent of Americans who are, as has been implied here, literally "cheering the murder of Jews".

There are probably more than zero Americans who alternatively support (absolutely literally) nuking Gaza, but they are few and far enough removed from meaningful influence on the debate as to be ignored in serious discussion. I perceive a rough parity between the two sides in terms of the fringes, evidence to the contrary welcomed.

I worry that what may be happening is some conflating of strong support for palestine / criticism of Israel, with bloodlust for Jewish people.

[Hardartery]

I have a friend that is like an adopted son that has Israeli citizenship and lived there in Haifa for several years (Moved back to the US about 2 years ago. I also know some Palestinians, and my BIL's best friend died of cancer back living in Gaza with his family and new wife a little before Covid hit. He was a very nice guy that lived in California and Ontario and his ex-wife and two kids live in Ontario currently. I've been to Israel, and seen Gaza first hand. Both sides are miserable bastards. The political arms/government are fairly disconnected from most of the actual residents and largely driven by extremists on both sides. Palestinians want to live normal peaceful lives, Hamas wants to kill all of the Jews. Israelis want to live normal peaceful lives, the hardline/right wing government wants to make life so miserable that all the Palestinians would rather relocate. The easiest thing to get as a Palestinian is a passport if you say that you want to leave the country. And they get help to do it within certain bounds. If you are Jewish and want to move to Israel, they will provide some fairly extraordinary help for you to do that. There is no right side to be on in this thing, only wrong sides.

[mikeylikey]

I have a friend that is like an adopted son that has Israeli citizenship and lived there in Haifa for several years (Moved back to the US about 2 years ago. I also know some Palestinians, and my BIL's best friend died of cancer back living in Gaza with his family and new wife a little before Covid hit. He was a very nice guy that lived in California and Ontario and his ex-wife and two kids live in Ontario currently. I've been to Israel, and seen Gaza first hand. Both sides are miserable bastards. The political arms/government are fairly disconnected from most of the actual residents and largely driven by extremists on both sides. Palestinians want to live normal peaceful lives, Hamas wants to kill all of the Jews. Israelis want to live normal peaceful lives, the hardline/right wing government wants to make life so miserable that all the Palestinians would rather relocate. The easiest thing to get as a Palestinian is a passport if you say that you want to leave the country. And they get help to do it within certain bounds. If you are Jewish and want to move to Israel, they will provide some fairly extraordinary help for you to do that. There is no right side to be on in this thing, only wrong sides.

And what if you are a Palestinian living in Gaza who would like to live in Israel? Is there a meaningful pathway to doing that?

[aurelius]

And what if you are a Palestinian living in Gaza who would like to live in Israel? Is there a meaningful pathway to doing that?

This ^

There are a lot of parallels between Israel/Palestinians and the US/Native Americans. One fundamental difference is a Native American can leave a reservation and live anywhere in the US with the rights and privileges afforded a citizen. One (if only) thing the US got right is giving the choice for Native Americans to assimilate.

[mikeylikey]

And what if you are a Palestinian living in Gaza who would like to live in Israel? Is there a meaningful pathway to doing that?

This ^

There are a lot of parallels between Israel/Palestinians and the US/Native Americans. One fundamental difference is a Native American can leave a reservation and live anywhere in the US with the rights and privileges afforded a citizen. One (if only) thing the US got right is giving the choice for Native Americans to assimilate.

I have to imagine it's a unique kind of suck to have to go out and work your whole life to maybe afford to buy back some piece of the land that was <stolen> <appropriated> <gotten under very questionable circumstances> <abandoned under duress> <pick one> from your ancestors to leave to your children, but yeah - simply having that option seems like sort of a baseline level of human decency.

[dw]

I specifically see this on Reddit and the big daily threads about the conflict that are in neutral subreddits (i.e. not in r/Israel or r/Marxism or wherever). Which imo is fairly representative of the opinion of a certain demographic - let's say youngish and college educated. You are certainly correct that the US political establishment in general is pro-Israel.

Reiterating that I'm sure the quantity is not zero, "I've seen comments on reddit" does not sufficiently persuade that there is a noteworthy contingent of Americans who are, as has been implied here, literally "cheering the murder of Jews".

There are probably more than zero Americans who alternatively support (absolutely literally) nuking Gaza, but they are few and far enough removed from meaningful influence on the debate as to be ignored in serious discussion. I perceive a rough parity between the two sides in terms of the fringes, evidence to the contrary welcomed.

I worry that what may be happening is some conflating of strong support for palestine / criticism of Israel, with bloodlust for Jewish people.

I didn't recall what exactly you were looking for. No I don't see many people calling for the extinction of the Jews, but I do see many implicitly defending Hamas since "the Palestinians are striking back against oppression in the only way they know how" or similar.

My point is the prevalence of the anti-colonialist paradigm among young progressives, the implication of which, though they may not grasp it, seems to be that Israel "the colonizer" should leave - meaning cease to exist. (I don't think they generally make any distinction between pre and post 67).

[GlasgowJock]

My point is the prevalence of the anti-colonialist paradigm among young progressives, the implication of which, though they may not grasp it, seems to be that Israel "the colonizer" should leave - meaning cease to exist. (I don't think they generally make any distinction between pre and post 67).

This is a line of reasoning many 'progressive'/ left leaning Scottish & Irish people on the British Isles are using to justify the actions of Hamas too due to the perceived parallels with British/ European colonialism regardless of it being more nuanced, and that Israel is exclusively 'white' and 'rich' so it's totally fine.

[mikeylikey]

My point is the prevalence of the anti-colonialist paradigm among young progressives, the implication of which, though they may not grasp it, seems to be that Israel "the colonizer" should leave - meaning cease to exist. (I don't think they generally make any distinction between pre and post 67).

Is it necessary to assume that the anti-colonialist position has as its only logical conclusion the termination of the state of Israel?

This is a line of reasoning many 'progressive'/ left leaning Scottish & Irish people on the British Isles are using to justify the actions of Hamas too due to the perceived parallels with British/ European colonialism regardless of it being more nuanced, and that Israel is exclusively 'white' and 'rich' so it's totally fine.

Where. Where are these people who are saying what Hamas did is "totally fine"? Links.

Absent evidence I am going to remain convinced that this is a hyperbolic interpretation secondary to your strong support for Israel. The latter is fine and your prerogative, the former is not constructive.

[aurelius]

I have to imagine it's a unique kind of suck to have to go out and work your whole life to maybe afford to buy back some piece of the land that was <stolen> <appropriated> <gotten under very questionable circumstances> <abandoned under duress> <pick one> from your ancestors to leave to your children, but yeah - simply having that option seems like sort of a baseline level of human decency.

For those lacking basic human decency: just taking a pragmatic view, allowing assimilation seems to result in people improving their lives by participating in the broader economy versus terrorism.

[dw]

And what if you are a Palestinian living in Gaza who would like to live in Israel? Is there a meaningful pathway to doing that?

This ^

There are a lot of parallels between Israel/Palestinians and the US/Native Americans. One fundamental difference is a Native American can leave a reservation and live anywhere in the US with the rights and privileges afforded a citizen. One (if only) thing the US got right is giving the choice for Native Americans to assimilate.

Judging from my quick Google scan there are something like 5m Palestinians in the whole greater Israel region (so including Israel and the occupied territories) and something like 7m Jewish Israelis.

So insofar as Israel wants to be a Jewish state (let's describe that as having a very large Jewish majority), they can't integrate with the Palestinian population.

[aurelius]

So insofar as Israel wants to be a Jewish state (let's describe that as having a very large Jewish majority), they can't integrate with the Palestinian population.

BINGO! And now you know why many people think Israel is an oppressive state that should not get Western support. There are no good guys in this fight.

The West supports Israel as part of an axis that includes Saudi Arabia to counter Iranian Hegemony. Israel could be North Korea. The West really doesn't care. It just helps that Israel is white, routinely exports prominent super models, and has the whole 'you owe us guys, remember we were almost exterminated 75 years ago?" This is a bit tongue in cheek.

Hamas is 100% a religious, fanatical organization willing to use their own people as human shields. They are the crazies and need to be put down. Don't let that blind you to what Israel is.

[dw]

My point is the prevalence of the anti-colonialist paradigm among young progressives, the implication of which, though they may not grasp it, seems to be that Israel "the colonizer" should leave - meaning cease to exist. (I don't think they generally make any distinction between pre and post 67).

Is it necessary to assume that the anti-colonialist position has as its only logical conclusion the termination of the state of Israel?

If you accept that (1) colonizers are bad and colonized are good, and (2) that the Zionists invaded the region in 48 to establish their state on lands occupied by the Palestinians, then yes I think so.

Its the same reasoning that supported the European powers leaving their colonies. Of course Israel is not a colony of another country, it is that country itself, but I don't see how you preserve that distinction once you decide Israel is the colonizer and the Palestinians the colonized.

Of course one could say well, de facto Israel exists and it is unreasonable to expect them to stop existing, but then you're abandoning the whole analysis in question and just being realistic.

Also regarding whether extremism is being exaggerated or not, do you believe that the elements of the left in question routinely refer to Israel as genocidal? Because I do see that a lot.

[mikeylikey]

Judging from my quick Google scan there are something like 5m Palestinians in the whole greater Israel region (so including Israel and the occupied territories) and something like 7m Jewish Israelis.

So insofar as Israel wants to be a Jewish state (let's describe that as having a very large Jewish majority), they can't integrate with the Palestinian population.

I think you are missing the point. Nobody is saying assimilate all 5 million Palestinians. And speaking for myself at least, not saying 'give' them the land back. Fair or not that ship has sailed. But let them have the option to work, earn money, and rent or purchase homes. How many are realistically going to be able to afford to buy homes in Israel? But having the right to do so would take away a major talking point for the Palestinians and the Arab countries who oppose Israel.

[mikeylikey]

Of course one could say well, de facto Israel exists and it is unreasonable to expect them to stop existing, but then you're abandoning the whole analysis in question and just being realistic.

The NERVE!

Also regarding whether extremism is being exaggerated or not, do you believe that the elements of the left in question routinely refer to Israel as genocidal? Because I do see that a lot.

More than zero. Not enough to be worthy of my time or yours. I posit similar in number and importance to those who believe Hillary is a lizard who eats baby spleens on pizza.

I cant' really argue the topic any more without examples and links.

[aurelius]

Also regarding whether extremism is being exaggerated or not, do you believe that the elements of the left in question routinely refer to Israel as genocidal? Because I do see that a lot.

Again with these nebulous claims. Sure, there are 'elements' that say all kinds of crazy shit all the time. And? It is the fucking internet age man. Point to me a prominent left or left-leaning leader, politician, analyst that is saying that. Provide a link. And do they represent the majority. I mean, Jesus Christ...Biden, the Liberal Anti-Christ who simultaneously is running the world through a pedophile ring/yet suffering from dementia and incompetent, is fucking flying to Israel to show support. Fuck me. This shit gets old.

[GlasgowJock]

Where. Where are these people who are saying what Hamas did is "totally fine"? Links.

Absent evidence I am going to remain convinced that this is a hyperbolic interpretation secondary to your strong support for Israel. The latter is fine and your prerogative, the former is not constructive.

Understandable and on reflection I am probably guilty of hyperbole as I am readily equating an absence of condemnation of the actions of Hamas among various groups as being pro-Hamas and their actions, I mean, why would they not openly condemn it, or am I being Kafkaesque in my logic whereby people are entitled to a neutral/ non-opinion on the matter?

[dw]

Judging from my quick Google scan there are something like 5m Palestinians in the whole greater Israel region (so including Israel and the occupied territories) and something like 7m Jewish Israelis.

So insofar as Israel wants to be a Jewish state (let's describe that as having a very large Jewish majority), they can't integrate with the Palestinian population.

I think you are missing the point. Nobody is saying assimilate all 5 million Palestinians. And speaking for myself at least, not saying 'give' them the land back. Fair or not that ship has sailed. But let them have the option to work, earn money, and rent or purchase homes. How many are realistically going to be able to afford to buy homes in Israel? But having the right to do so would take away a major talking point for the Palestinians and the Arab countries who oppose Israel.

Are you talking about right to work or citizenship?

I don't know what the rules are with respect to land ownership tbh but I know there are Palestinian day workers.

But regardless afaik the big "talking point" is military occupation of the occupied territories, which doesn't seem related to this. There is never going to be peace as long as that remains, so the end point is either a one or two state solution (or simply no end point at all).