Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

[Hardartery]

I bet they would claim that. It is also several hospitals, the claim was that they were conducting operations in tunnels under all of the hospitals not just Al-Shifa

Yeah, I'm sure the causalities are much higher if you broaden the criteria, but that wasn't what @mikeylikey was referring to.

it could actually easily be thousands that have been killed directly around and in the hospitals.

Could have? Like hypothetically? I haven't seen any reputable statistics that are even remotely close to that.

I have seen unofficial stuff, basically they don't know because no one knows for sure how many bodies are under rubble in the different locations. The other issue is that given that these are hospitals how do you know how many would have died anyway? How many died from all of the public services being cut off to the hospitals? No electricity is problematic if you are a hospital, so is no water. Hard numbers to tabulate or verify. I saw some cell phone stuff from the parking lots when bombs hit. I know there's one of one of those new R9X (I think that's what it's called, the Ninja bomb thingie) hitting an ambulance. The Israeli claim was that it was being used to transport Hamas guys, but the only body in it seemed to be what was left of the driver and there was carnage all around it. One guys leg looked like it went through a paper shredder as they were dragging him off to try an treat him.

[Hardartery]

It's not the number of weapons that matter. It's the nature and scope of Hamas operations in the hospital that matters.

Okay, so same question: Are you comfortable with several thousand women and children dying based on the nature and scope of Hamas operations in the hospital which are now evident?

Are you saying that that several thousand women and children were killed during Israel's siege and occupation of the hospital (al-Shifa)??? Because I don't think even Hamas has claimed that many.

I bet they would claim that. It is also several hospitals, the claim was that they were conducting operations in tunnels under all of the hospitals not just Al-Shifa and it could actually easily be thousands that have been killed directly around and in the hospitals.
Side note, I have been mostly off-line for a week and missed some of this thread, has anyone brought up the admission by Israel that they knew the tunnels were there because it was actually Israel that built them? Just curious.

I saw a minute of this on TV. Seemed unclear. Like maybe Israel was admitting to building some limited underground spaces next to the hospital, rather than a tunnel network. But wasn’t super clear (to me) either way.
Maybe it’s both, and the Hamas tunnels connect to the Israel built underground space?
Idk

I saw the bit in the interview with Amanpour. They built tunnels to increase hospital capacity because the hospitals can only go up or down, no more land for spreading out. Seriously, how hard could it really be to run in some troops and drop into those tunnels instead of lighting up the parking lots? I see the videos of the Israeli troops moving about, no one is so much as saying boo to them never find shooting at them or anything. And the Israelis are being dicks, throwing flash bangs into the Mosques during the call to prayer and randomly lighting off a case of tear gas in the general direction of wherever people happen to be.

[mikeylikey]

I bet they would claim that. It is also several hospitals, the claim was that they were conducting operations in tunnels under all of the hospitals not just Al-Shifa

Yeah, I'm sure the causalities are much higher if you broaden the criteria, but that wasn't what @mikeylikey was referring to.

it could actually easily be thousands that have been killed directly around and in the hospitals.

Could have? Like hypothetically? I haven't seen any reputable statistics that are even remotely close to that.

Most of the dead are from the barrage of air strikes. The air strikes were preparatory to the ground invasion, and the ground invasion had as it's primary objective seizing the hospital(s). As evidenced by the fact that Israel agreed to a ceasefire basically immediately upon having reached the hospital(s).

So yes I claim a large fraction of the some 12k+ dead in Gaza are properly attributed to the IDF's strategic goal of seizing the hospitals.

[aurelius]

I can't read the NY Times articles without paying or gymnastics and I don't care that much, the Times of Israel states 4 Hamas commanders were killed, it does not even infer that they were in or even around tunnels. Israel justified bombing hospitals, and to an extent the ground invasion itself as opposed to just bombing strikes as necessary because of those tunnels. Were they in the tunnels? Maybe, it would not be surprising, but actual evidence would make Israel look less like the assholes that they are. Either way, it is being used to kill civilians. And Israel is not trying to not kill civilians. Hamas is not better, but sinking to the level of the enemy is not the noble path, it is waterboarding and trying to weasel around agreements made with the world at large because they don't want prove they are in fact no better than the worst actor in the conflict.

I posted multiple articles from different sources to support my point. You largely avoid responding to the content of my post and have just kind of doubled down on this vague sense of outrage. Okay.

But with the underlined it seems you are being intentionally obtuse. The tunnel entrances are located under buildings. To bomb the tunnel entrances Israel must bomb buildings and must do so to obliterate the building. Israel can't just selectively bomb the tunnel entrances with some minimal approach. Hamas intentionally built the tunnel network this way.

Regarding the bolded. Yes, Israel is not trying all that hard to not kill civilians as compared to US military actions. Fair point. Also consider this: The Gaza Strip is home to 2 million people in some of, if not the highest, per capita density in the world. The fact the Gazan death count is ~10,000 people (worst case) shows Israel is taking some care.

To be clear Israel has NOT 'sunken' to the level of Hamas.
--Hamas intentionally targeted residential homes, schools, music festivals, and such with no other purpose than to kill civilians. Hamas killed 1,400 civilians and kidnapped 400 more.
--Israel is attacking viable Hamas military and command targets. Yes, civilians are being killed. But that is because Hamas is using Gazans as human shields. Israel would be more than happy to kill Hamas in an open field. Hamas is choosing the battlefield.
Do not equate the two actions. They are not the same.

All of this is in the context of I don't support Israel's current strategy. But we need to be working from the facts and be critical of the correct things.

[aurelius]

Something I have discovered, and this shows my ignorance, but 20% of Israels population is Palestinian Arabs descended from 150,000 Palestinians that were not relocated to the Gaza strip or the West Bank. They are full fledge Israelis citizens that vote, hold office, and serve in the military. I don't know what to do with this information other than to point out the Jews versus Palestinian narrative is more complicated.

[Hardartery]

I can't read the NY Times articles without paying or gymnastics and I don't care that much, the Times of Israel states 4 Hamas commanders were killed, it does not even infer that they were in or even around tunnels. Israel justified bombing hospitals, and to an extent the ground invasion itself as opposed to just bombing strikes as necessary because of those tunnels. Were they in the tunnels? Maybe, it would not be surprising, but actual evidence would make Israel look less like the assholes that they are. Either way, it is being used to kill civilians. And Israel is not trying to not kill civilians. Hamas is not better, but sinking to the level of the enemy is not the noble path, it is waterboarding and trying to weasel around agreements made with the world at large because they don't want prove they are in fact no better than the worst actor in the conflict.

I posted multiple articles from different sources to support my point. You largely avoid responding to the content of my post and have just kind of doubled down on this vague sense of outrage. Okay.

But with the underlined it seems you are being intentionally obtuse. The tunnel entrances are located under buildings. To bomb the tunnel entrances Israel must bomb buildings and must do so to obliterate the building. Israel can't just selectively bomb the tunnel entrances with some minimal approach. Hamas intentionally built the tunnel network this way.

Regarding the bolded. Yes, Israel is not trying all that hard to not kill civilians as compared to US military actions. Fair point. Also consider this: The Gaza Strip is home to 2 million people in some of, if not the highest, per capita density in the world. The fact the Gazan death count is ~10,000 people (worst case) shows Israel is taking some care.

To be clear Israel has NOT 'sunken' to the level of Hamas.
--Hamas intentionally targeted residential homes, schools, music festivals, and such with no other purpose than to kill civilians. Hamas kill 1,400 civilians and kidnapped 400 more.
--Israel is attacking viable Hamas military and command targets. Yes, civilians are being killed. But that is because Hamas is using Gazans as human shields. Israel would be more than happy to kill Hamas in an open field. Hamas is choosing the battlefield.
Do not equate the two actions. They are not the same.

To be clear, I am avoiding nothing, Hamas didn't intentionally build the tunnels that way, Israel did. Which was the point. If the tunnel goes somewhere outside of the hospital grounds they have the ability to bomb that spot and sever the connection without striking a hospital, they are choosing not to. They are openly using snipers on designated civilian routes to kill literally anyone on the road and leave the bodies lying in the open to rot - shooting anyone who might venture out to try and collect any of the bodies. They have bombed several convoys of evacuees and shown no actual evidence that there was anyone but civilians in the convoy. They are hitting clearly marked aid trucks and ambulances, and while I don't doubt Hamas will and does use civilians as shield Israel uses that as an excuse to straight up kill civilians. The Israeli army is moving about in Gaza freely and unmolested, they could simply fill the tunnel entrances with concrete the same way they have been filling wells on Palestinian territory for several years. They are using excuses to justify dishonourable behaviour, and not being held to account for the most part.
Just to be clear, they aren't killing civilians because Hamas uses them as human shields, they are killing civilians because they feel like they can get away with it. They have dehumanized the Palestinians in the same way they themselves have been dehumanized, which is a base action performed to permit atrocities. It's easier to do bad things to someone that you stop viewing as a person, and that is what hapens on both sides. Jihadists are proud to kill "Jews", the oppressors, and do not think of them as people and the Israeli's are at the same time doing the same mental conversion in relation to Palestinians and offering justifications to assuage negative international sentiment. They are acting on the same debased level, and doing so from the position of power not the position of weakness.

[ChasingCurls69]

I can't read the NY Times articles without paying or gymnastics and I don't care that much, the Times of Israel states 4 Hamas commanders were killed, it does not even infer that they were in or even around tunnels. Israel justified bombing hospitals, and to an extent the ground invasion itself as opposed to just bombing strikes as necessary because of those tunnels. Were they in the tunnels? Maybe, it would not be surprising, but actual evidence would make Israel look less like the assholes that they are. Either way, it is being used to kill civilians. And Israel is not trying to not kill civilians. Hamas is not better, but sinking to the level of the enemy is not the noble path, it is waterboarding and trying to weasel around agreements made with the world at large because they don't want prove they are in fact no better than the worst actor in the conflict.

I posted multiple articles from different sources to support my point. You largely avoid responding to the content of my post and have just kind of doubled down on this vague sense of outrage. Okay.

But with the underlined it seems you are being intentionally obtuse. The tunnel entrances are located under buildings. To bomb the tunnel entrances Israel must bomb buildings and must do so to obliterate the building. Israel can't just selectively bomb the tunnel entrances with some minimal approach. Hamas intentionally built the tunnel network this way.

Regarding the bolded. Yes, Israel is not trying all that hard to not kill civilians as compared to US military actions. Fair point. Also consider this: The Gaza Strip is home to 2 million people in some of, if not the highest, per capita density in the world. The fact the Gazan death count is ~10,000 people (worst case) shows Israel is taking some care.

To be clear Israel has NOT 'sunken' to the level of Hamas.
--Hamas intentionally targeted residential homes, schools, music festivals, and such with no other purpose than to kill civilians. Hamas killed 1,400 civilians and kidnapped 400 more.
--Israel is attacking viable Hamas military and command targets. Yes, civilians are being killed. But that is because Hamas is using Gazans as human shields. Israel would be more than happy to kill Hamas in an open field. Hamas is choosing the battlefield.
Do not equate the two actions. They are not the same.

All of this is in the context of I don't support Israel's current strategy. But we need to be working from the facts and be critical of the correct things.

The "human shield" argument removes all agency from the IDF and their actions. There are many choices leading to "bomb civilians to the point you kill 12k in 7 weeks," and those choices could go other ways. It reminds me of am argument made about the Russia-Ukraine war that basically says Russia "had" to invade Ukraine because of NATO pressure.

[aurelius]

The "human shield" argument removes all agency from the IDF and their actions. There are many choices leading to "bomb civilians to the point you kill 12k in 7 weeks," and those choices could go other ways. It reminds me of am argument made about the Russia-Ukraine war that basically says Russia "had" to invade Ukraine because of NATO pressure.

But Hamas IS using Gazans as human shields. That is their strategy and an undisputed fact. Hamas has agency and are responsible for their tactics too. Yes?

False equivalency. Ukraine was not a threat to Russia, did not oppose Russia, state they will wipe out Russia, and did not attack Russia. NATO is a defensive alliance that opposes Russian aggression/expansion. NATO is only a threat to the Russian vision of conquering other nations and regaining the territory lost with the fall of the USSR.

Israel's stated purpose is to eliminate Hamas. Entering the Gaza strip and dismantling the tunnel network is required to achieve that goal. Unless you know of some other way Israel can achieve their objective.

I do not believe that this current action will be successful. I believe it will empower Hamas and lead to a more determined resistance against Israel. And other options should have been pursued. I believe we agree on that.

[aurelius]

To be clear, I am avoiding nothing, Hamas didn't intentionally build the tunnels that way, Israel did. Which was the point. If the tunnel goes somewhere outside of the hospital grounds they have the ability to bomb that spot and sever the connection without striking a hospital, they are choosing not to. They are openly using snipers on designated civilian routes to kill literally anyone on the road and leave the bodies lying in the open to rot - shooting anyone who might venture out to try and collect any of the bodies. They have bombed several convoys of evacuees and shown no actual evidence that there was anyone but civilians in the convoy. They are hitting clearly marked aid trucks and ambulances, and while I don't doubt Hamas will and does use civilians as shield Israel uses that as an excuse to straight up kill civilians. The Israeli army is moving about in Gaza freely and unmolested, they could simply fill the tunnel entrances with concrete the same way they have been filling wells on Palestinian territory for several years. They are using excuses to justify dishonourable behaviour, and not being held to account for the most part.
Just to be clear, they aren't killing civilians because Hamas uses them as human shields, they are killing civilians because they feel like they can get away with it. They have dehumanized the Palestinians in the same way they themselves have been dehumanized, which is a base action performed to permit atrocities. It's easier to do bad things to someone that you stop viewing as a person, and that is what hapens on both sides. Jihadists are proud to kill "Jews", the oppressors, and do not think of them as people and the Israeli's are at the same time doing the same mental conversion in relation to Palestinians and offering justifications to assuage negative international sentiment. They are acting on the same debased level, and doing so from the position of power not the position of weakness.

Significant claims. What are your sources for this information?

In general: When is any nation held accountable for dishonorable actions in war? Will the Russian army that systemically raped Ukrainians and killed civilians be held accountable? People say these things like this ever happens. The winning side, when there is one, makes a show trial of a few of the defeated.

Hamas has spent 20 years building the tunnel network for this very scenario. Israel cannot just bomb portions of the tunnel as they don't have a map of the tunnel network. The tunnel network is underground. Making it very resilient to bombing. The entrances are the weak points in the tunnel network. I think you underestimate the difficulty facing the IDF in taking on the Hamas tunnel network. Essentially, they are knowingly entering a trap.

I think we can both agree that Israel's actions are not measured enough and long-term will cause more harm.

[Hardartery]

To be clear, I am avoiding nothing, Hamas didn't intentionally build the tunnels that way, Israel did. Which was the point. If the tunnel goes somewhere outside of the hospital grounds they have the ability to bomb that spot and sever the connection without striking a hospital, they are choosing not to. They are openly using snipers on designated civilian routes to kill literally anyone on the road and leave the bodies lying in the open to rot - shooting anyone who might venture out to try and collect any of the bodies. They have bombed several convoys of evacuees and shown no actual evidence that there was anyone but civilians in the convoy. They are hitting clearly marked aid trucks and ambulances, and while I don't doubt Hamas will and does use civilians as shield Israel uses that as an excuse to straight up kill civilians. The Israeli army is moving about in Gaza freely and unmolested, they could simply fill the tunnel entrances with concrete the same way they have been filling wells on Palestinian territory for several years. They are using excuses to justify dishonourable behaviour, and not being held to account for the most part.
Just to be clear, they aren't killing civilians because Hamas uses them as human shields, they are killing civilians because they feel like they can get away with it. They have dehumanized the Palestinians in the same way they themselves have been dehumanized, which is a base action performed to permit atrocities. It's easier to do bad things to someone that you stop viewing as a person, and that is what hapens on both sides. Jihadists are proud to kill "Jews", the oppressors, and do not think of them as people and the Israeli's are at the same time doing the same mental conversion in relation to Palestinians and offering justifications to assuage negative international sentiment. They are acting on the same debased level, and doing so from the position of power not the position of weakness.

Significant claims. What are your sources for this information?

In general: When is any nation held accountable for dishonorable actions in war? Will the Russian army that systemically raped Ukrainians and killed civilians be held accountable? People say these things like this ever happens. The winning side, when there is one, makes a show trial of a few of the defeated.

Hamas has spent 20 years building the tunnel network for this very scenario. Israel cannot just bomb portions of the tunnel as they don't have a map of the tunnel network. The tunnel network is underground. Making it very resilient to bombing. The entrances are the weak points in the tunnel network. I think you underestimate the difficulty facing the IDF in taking on the Hamas tunnel network. Essentially, they are knowingly entering a trap.

I think we can both agree that Israel's actions are not measured enough and long-term will cause more harm.

My sources are the news and some personal cell phone uploads. Place like DW News, Al Jazeera (Biased, much like Western media but in the other direction), BBC World Service, etc..
Not bold claims, commenting on some common and easy to find information. If you are curios, the expats that live in Israel use i24 News for their information https://www.i24news.tv/en
The notion that Hamas has built anything resilient to bombing is pretty funny, and tunnels are the stupidest thing to use in this scenario. They are good for moving people and stuff outside of easy detection, terrible for actual defense or hiding in actual combat. Things like tear gas or water will clear them pretty quickly without actually endangering your own forces. That's just a bullshit smokescreen from Israel. And given that Israel literally has the plans for the system under the hospitals....

As far as accountability, The Hague exists for this reason, and Israel should certainly be well acquainted with it given how many Nazis they delivered to it over the decades following WW2. Kind of the point, the Allies behaved better during and following WW2. It won respect for them from other countries for rising above. What Israel is doing is very much the opposite, and terrorists aren't going to be able to do much to lower their international standing and by definition are not acting with that in mind.

[JonA]

As far as accountability, The Hague exists for this reason, and Israel should certainly be well acquainted with it given how many Nazis they delivered to it over the decades following WW2. Kind of the point, the Allies behaved better during and following WW2. It won respect for them from other countries for rising above. What Israel is doing is very much the opposite, and terrorists aren't going to be able to do much to lower their international standing and by definition are not acting with that in mind.

Sorry, you lost me here. You are suggesting that Israel's leadership should be tried in war crimes court, just like the Nazis?

[coldfire]

Something I have discovered, and this shows my ignorance, but 20% of Israels population is Palestinian Arabs descended from 150,000 Palestinians that were not relocated to the Gaza strip or the West Bank. They are full fledge Israelis citizens that vote, hold office, and serve in the military. I don't know what to do with this information other than to point out the Jews versus Palestinian narrative is more complicated.

Minor correction - the Arabs don't serve in the military (unless they want to), the Druze do.

[Hardartery]

As far as accountability, The Hague exists for this reason, and Israel should certainly be well acquainted with it given how many Nazis they delivered to it over the decades following WW2. Kind of the point, the Allies behaved better during and following WW2. It won respect for them from other countries for rising above. What Israel is doing is very much the opposite, and terrorists aren't going to be able to do much to lower their international standing and by definition are not acting with that in mind.

Sorry, you lost me here. You are suggesting that Israel's leadership should be tried in war crimes court, just like the Nazis?

That was a response to "In general: When is any nation held accountable for dishonorable actions in war? Will the Russian army that systemically raped Ukrainians and killed civilians be held accountable? People say these things like this ever happens. The winning side, when there is one, makes a show trial of a few of the defeated.". And I have no issue with them being charged with any war crimes that they have committed and be fully prosecuted. Same goes for Russia, Ukraine and Hamas. No point in laws and courts if there is no enforcement.

[Renascent]

Just to be clear, they aren't killing civilians because Hamas uses them as human shields, they are killing civilians because they feel like they can get away with it. They have dehumanized the Palestinians in the same way they themselves have been dehumanized, which is a base action performed to permit atrocities.

Kind of the point, the Allies behaved better during and following WW2. It won respect for them from other countries for rising above. What Israel is doing is very much the opposite...

[JonA]

the Allies behaved better during and following WW2. It won respect for them from other countries for rising above.

Umm...hmmm....well, I got some bad news for you. Things didn't go well for civilians in Berlin, Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki during or at the end of WW2.

But at least the US and USSR won respect from ...umm... which countries was it again? I'm sure they respected them for rising above, for sure. /s

Eta: or maybe you were talking about after the war; after the surrenders when the Allies occupied and ruled with military force and imposed their own ideas of government, politics, and economy on their defeated counterparts, ensuring that they were entirely demilitarized and compliant before withdrawing. Is that the behavior you think Israel should emulate?

[aurelius]

Umm...hmmm....well, I got some bad news for you. Things didn't go well for civilians in Berlin, Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki during or at the end of WW2.

But at least the US and USSR won respect from ...umm... which countries was it again? I'm sure they respected them for rising above, for sure. /s

Eta: or maybe you were talking about after the war; after the surrenders when the Allies occupied and ruled with military force and imposed their own ideas of government, politics, and economy on their defeated counterparts, ensuring that they were entirely demilitarized and compliant before withdrawing. Is that the behavior you think Israel should emulate?

If I am remembering correctly the Russians were part of the Allied forces and their treatment of POWs and civilians was less than stellar. /s

[aurelius]

@Hardartery yeah I checked out i24, Al Jazeera, and bbc world…I could not find articles that support the claims you made. I have seen this stuff circulating on social media. Information on social media is not convincing to me.

I am not a fan of what Israel is doing. I have written about that previously. But making Hamas the good guys and pretending Israel are monsters is some serious bullshit.

[ChasingCurls69]

As far as accountability, The Hague exists for this reason, and Israel should certainly be well acquainted with it given how many Nazis they delivered to it over the decades following WW2. Kind of the point, the Allies behaved better during and following WW2. It won respect for them from other countries for rising above. What Israel is doing is very much the opposite, and terrorists aren't going to be able to do much to lower their international standing and by definition are not acting with that in mind.

Sorry, you lost me here. You are suggesting that Israel's leadership should be tried in war crimes court, just like the Nazis?

Yes.

[ChasingCurls69]

The "human shield" argument removes all agency from the IDF and their actions. There are many choices leading to "bomb civilians to the point you kill 12k in 7 weeks," and those choices could go other ways. It reminds me of am argument made about the Russia-Ukraine war that basically says Russia "had" to invade Ukraine because of NATO pressure.

But Hamas IS using Gazans as human shields. That is their strategy and an undisputed fact. Hamas has agency and are responsible for their tactics too. Yes?

False equivalency. Ukraine was not a threat to Russia, did not oppose Russia, state they will wipe out Russia, and did not attack Russia. NATO is a defensive alliance that opposes Russian aggression/expansion. NATO is only a threat to the Russian vision of conquering other nations and regaining the territory lost with the fall of the USSR.

Israel's stated purpose is to eliminate Hamas. Entering the Gaza strip and dismantling the tunnel network is required to achieve that goal. Unless you know of some other way Israel can achieve their objective.

I do not believe that this current action will be successful. I believe it will empower Hamas and lead to a more determined resistance against Israel. And other options should have been pursued. I believe we agree on that.

Hamas does have agency, but the way they are using civilians as "human shields" is inherently a passive action. They are baiting Israel into committing war crimes and ruining Israel's public image in the international community. Israel could just not take the bait, but they are in 9/11 mode.

Israel's stated goal is to eliminate Hamas, even if it takes a genocide. They've occupied Gaza for almost two decades and now they decide it's the time to indiscriminately bomb to tunnel network.

We are 100% agreed on your last paragraph. This will not be successful and hopefully ruins Israel's international standing. Empowered Hamas will continue to resist but still won't have enough international political power or military power to do anything besides bait Israel with civilians, and they were never a good option. A bunch of people will die as pawns between Israel and Hamas, and no one will touch the handful of people responsible for making these kinds of decisions.

[Hardartery]

@Hardartery yeah I checked out i24, Al Jazeera, and bbc world…I could not find articles that support the claims you made. I have seen this stuff circulating on social media. Information on social media is not convincing to me.

I am not a fan of what Israel is doing. I have written about that previously. But making Hamas the good guys and pretending Israel are monsters is some serious bullshit.

I think that I have been pretty clear all along that there are no "Good guys" here. Both sides are terrible bastards. Justifying Israel's actions is at best problematic, they are not better than Hamas in this they are merely the side that possesses the more powerful position. Nobody is making Hamas out to be any kind of anything good.