Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

[GlasgowJock]

And what if you are a Palestinian living in Gaza who would like to live in Israel? Is there a meaningful pathway to doing that?

Other than perhaps a woman marrying an Israeli citizen then none that I can conceive of, Gazans were limited to entering Israel purely for regular/ specialist medical treatment and commuting for work.

[dw]

Also regarding whether extremism is being exaggerated or not, do you believe that the elements of the left in question routinely refer to Israel as genocidal? Because I do see that a lot.

Again with these nebulous claims. Sure, there are 'elements' that say all kinds of crazy shit all the time. And? It is the fucking internet age man. Point to me a prominent left or left-leaning leader, politician, analyst that is saying that. Provide a link. And do they represent the majority. I mean, Jesus Christ, Biden is fucking flying to Israel right now. Fuck me. This shit gets old.

I'm not talking about democratic leaders. I'm talking about young progressives.

I think this position is more common and from a more important group that Pizzagate, and certainly has a degree of intellectual rigor behind it that that did not.

I don't understand what you and Mikey think the point of disagreement here is.

[GlasgowJock]

Interview with a former Israeli intelligence officer now analyst. Obviously Pro-Israel but I think he remains objective. What is interesting is his framing of this as an extension of Iran's goals of hegemony in the Middle East.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/15/opinions ... index.html

That was informative btw, thanks.

I read a viewpoint by the Independent's Patrick Cockburn that seemed balanced and stated similar in some parts as the article you linked.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/israel-avoi ... 11-2675046

[dw]

Since there is some demand for sources....

I don't know how to link reddit but I searched for Israel and went with the second post that showed up in my app (the first had a video attachment and wouldn't let me search comments).

It's in r/mapporn, completely neutral sub. The topic is International Recognition of Israel.

You can search comments for "genocide". I scanned and saw numerous comments accusing Israel of being genocidal, a smaller number denying that charge.

Is that sufficient evidence of whatever is being doubted? Or the people of Reddit just random crazies that pull their opinions out of the ether? Or something else?

[aurelius]

Other than perhaps a woman marrying an Israeli citizen then none that I can conceive of, Gazans were limited to entering Israel purely for regular/ specialist medical treatment and commuting for work.

I don't know what specific point I have. Just intrigued by the question: what participation does Israel allow Palestinians in the broader economy? Israel uses Palestinians to perform unskilled labor in undesirable jobs. Similar to how the US uses Mexican migrant labor.

Palestinian Population: 2.1 million live in the West Bank and 1.8 million live in Gaza. Israel permits 55,200 unskilled jobs for Palestinians primarily in the agriculture and construction industries. It is estimated 30,000 Palestinians work illegally in Israel. In any given year Israel employs 70 to 80 thousand Palestinians. Unemployment rate in West Bank is 25% and Gaza 50%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestini ... _in_Israel

[aurelius]

I think this position is more common and from a more important group that Pizzagate, and certainly has a degree of intellectual rigor behind it that that did not.

QAnon got Donald Trump elected President of the United States. I think you are grossly underestimating their importance.

I don't understand what you and Mikey think the point of disagreement here is.

You, and others, have continually assigned this point of view broadly to 'liberals'. When that is objectively false. All you can really say is that a few sub-reddits you selected to get involved in has had people you describe as young progressives voice this opinion.

[aurelius]

Is that sufficient evidence of whatever is being doubted? Or the people of Reddit just random crazies that pull their opinions out of the ether? Or something else?

You are joking right? Shit man, I can directly quote Donald Trump, Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor, Lauren Boebert, and on and on crazy shit about name the topic. And I don't (at least yet) assign the garbage that comes out of their mouths to conservatives. And you are going down some random internet message board?



I am no longer taking this line of discussion seriously.

[mikeylikey]

Are you talking about right to work or citizenship?

I'm talking about living in the places their ancestors lived, working, buying property, raising their families, and having rights as community members. I think this is a reasonable thing to support all human beings having at least a possible pathway to. So yeah I guess citizenship ultimately. There would need to be a process. It would be difficult and expensive. These people would be starting with nothing. This is pragmatic, it's not "fair". That should self-regulate the concern(?) that all 5 million Palestinians are going to nullify the Jewish cultural majority.

[aurelius]

Since there is some demand for sources....

Provides no sources.



Yes, I recognize I responded to this post twice. Did it both ways.

[dw]

@aurelius

I think perhaps the issue is that you think that what matters is Republicans and Democrats and liberals and conservatives, and so you feel accused when someone attributes an opinion to some on "the left", which to your mind is a reference to the political party to which you feel some attachment.

But the topic of discussion is a school of thought not closely connected with American politics, though it has considerable importance in European politics. Regardless it a very influential source of opinions on the current conflict and I think worth addressing for that reason.

Also it's never too late to slow down. You don't have to heap bluster upon bluster when you sense you've gotten off on the wrong foot.

[hector]

Bizarre to imagine that students could so casually go from calling those they disagree with “Nazis” one day to cheering the murder of Jews the next.

This is not bizarre at all and I'd argue should be expected.

You could be right, especially if you understand college students better than me. Which I’m guessing you do.

For me, the anti-Nazi position and the dont-slaughter-Jews position go hand in hand.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but can you guys be more specific on where you are seeing Americans "cheering the murder of Jews" you are referring to? You guys seem to be implying that it is fairly widespread, which differs from my perception.

Absolutely not what I mean to imply. I think this is the far left of the far left.

[hector]

Judging from my quick Google scan there are something like 5m Palestinians in the whole greater Israel region (so including Israel and the occupied territories) and something like 7m Jewish Israelis.

So insofar as Israel wants to be a Jewish state (let's describe that as having a very large Jewish majority), they can't integrate with the Palestinian population.

I think you are missing the point. Nobody is saying assimilate all 5 million Palestinians. And speaking for myself at least, not saying 'give' them the land back. Fair or not that ship has sailed. But let them have the option to work, earn money, and rent or purchase homes. How many are realistically going to be able to afford to buy homes in Israel? But having the right to do so would take away a major talking point for the Palestinians and the Arab countries who oppose Israel.

Are you talking about right to work or citizenship?

I don't know what the rules are with respect to land ownership tbh but I know there are Palestinian day workers.

But regardless afaik the big "talking point" is military occupation of the occupied territories, which doesn't seem related to this. There is never going to be peace as long as that remains, so the end point is either a one or two state solution (or simply no end point at all).

Yep. I think it’s a slow burn that will go on indefinitely. No end in sight.

[mikeylikey]

Yep. I think it’s a slow burn that will go on indefinitely. No end in sight.

This week I have read/heard interviews with diplomat types on both sides who worked on various attempts at peace over the years. And them recalling having believed during the 70s and 80s that the situation would be mostly resolved in a few years at that time. As well as archived interviews with contemporaneous statements to that effect. That's very depressing.

[aurelius]

I think perhaps the issue is that you think that what matters is Republicans and Democrats and liberals and conservatives, and so you feel accused when someone attributes an opinion to some on "the left", which to your mind is a reference to the political party to which you feel some attachment.

I have voted Republican 3 out of 6 Presidential elections I have been eligible to vote in. My attachment to a political party is zilch. What I am tired of is conservatives, I mean 'independent' thinkers, creating a straw boogeyman 'Left' to argue against. It's lazy, non-constructive, and allows conservatives to create entire arguments in a vacuum in which they are always right. That is how extremism happens.

I could spend maybe 5 minutes on message boards and find literal Nazis and say, "Everyone. Look here. Look what the right thinks!" It's silly.

But the topic of discussion is a school of thought not closely connected with American politics, though it has considerable importance in European politics. Regardless it a very influential source of opinions on the current conflict and I think worth addressing for that reason.

You have not demonstrated this despite being asked to several times. And it is in direct contrast to the actions of the West which has been to immediately support Israel. The liberal, leftist leader of the West is flying to Israel to show support. What more do you want?

Admittedly, the US left is more like European center so I will give you that.

Also it's never too late to slow down. You don't have to heap bluster upon bluster when you sense you've gotten off on the wrong foot.

Alternatively, you could just admit that you read a few message boards and attributed what a few posters representing minority fringe groups said to 'liberals' and 'the left' because it confirmed your biases. All I'm doing is laughing now because that is really all that is left.

But come on man, a Big Lebowski AND Brooklyn 99 reference??? Gold! I could not pass that up.

[mikeylikey]

WRT Pro-Palestinian types not condemning the 10/7 atrocities, or condemning with insufficient fervor.

Imagine you are a cop in this country. You deal with drunks and wife beaters and child abusers and gang bangers all day long, and for the most part nobody cares, but as soon as there is a questionable police shooting everybody wants to know if you have the "right" opinion. In fairness to cops, I bet that is exhausting.

I imagine it is similar for an advocate for Palestine (like, an actual advocate who does actual work and not just comment on the internet when it's trending) to feel like people are only interested in your opinion when it's to see if you have the correct amount of condemnation for Hamas when they act up every couple of years.

[mikeylikey]

I think this position is more common and from a more important group that Pizzagate, and certainly has a degree of intellectual rigor behind it that that did not.

O-contrayr mine friend. Pizzagate reflects the sincere and examined opinions of a sizeable and influential fraction of The Right and has a direct bearing on policy and other tangible outcomes. Don't believe me? Yeah well I looked at the comments on some youtube videos the other day, and trust me, there were a lot of pizzagate type statements. I mean, not literally... I can't like, "link" to them, or "copy and paste"... but you could tell, reading between the lines, that's what these people think. I want this to be true, because it makes me feel better about my own opinions. And that's good enough for me.

[BostonRugger]

My preference to nobody's surprise is that we no US $ and no US troops. Good luck with your warring.

IRT the perception of public opinion, my feel for the board is that we're largely millennial and older white guys. US opinion is strongly with Israel (blame Cyrus Scofield), but younger people and minorities are more likely than older White people to stand with Palestine.

Here's an NPR poll of 1K people to support my statement.

[aurelius]

IRT the perception of public opinion, my feel for the board is that we're largely millennial and older white guys. US opinion is strongly with Israel (blame Cyrus Scofield), but younger people and minorities are more likely than older White people to stand with Palestine..

I had to Google Cyrus Scofield. You made me learn. You bastard.

Overall, 65% said the U.S. should support Israel publicly. That was true of big majorities of both parties — 77% of Republicans and 69% of Democrats.

Notably, independents were less likely to believe this — 54% thought the U.S. should publicly support Israel, but a third said the U.S. shouldn't say or do anything.

It is the independents that are the Hamas loving bastards. @mikeylikey! You have some explaining to do.

[mikeylikey]

It is the independents that are the Hamas loving bastards. @mikeylikey! You have some explaining to do.

Sorry guys. Not sure what happened here. I'll bring this to the grand poobah's attention at the next club meeting.

[aurelius]

Sorry guys. Not sure what happened here. I'll bring this to the grand poobah's attention at the next club meeting.

I can't wait for this guy to weigh in.