Overhead Press Thread

[Hardartery]

I feel weird giving any kind of advice given that your bigger than me but from watching those clips:

From the side you look way too loosey goosey and leaned back. Yeah it's 315 but watch your feet when you shove it up. Especially during a strict press I have to consciously think about flexing the shit out of my quads... your feet should never move once they get set even if you lean back a bit and move 'around' the bar a bit...

From the back, again... it's 315 and I haven't touched 300 on a bar (OK, I only ever touched it on an axle) in a while but I don't dig your wrists. Looks like the bar is sitting too far back in your palm. At times I find it helpful to use a thumbless grip to keep my forearms stacked under the bar... consider wrapping them...

Maybe that's helpful, maybe it isn't...

Don't have much to offer programming wise other than I typically do all of my pressing volume as strict presses because I'm not a particularly explosive dude and need to be able to finish overhead with raw power most of the time, legs are just to get it through the 'easy' part...

I was debating using the wraps. I didn't bring any, but my forearms are being a little bitchy and it would probably help that. I am startled how not heavy it feels, which is part of the loosy goosy look I think, I have never been much of a conscious bracer. When it gets heavy, I tend to lock up and flex everything from my toes up - at least historically. I haven't tried anything even close to this heavy in a very long time and my lifetime PR press is a 305 push press on Axle and Log. Same number on Axle and Log. The fact that I move that bar at all from my shoulders in a strict press makes zero sense, even less that I have the same ROM with 335. I was expecting that feeling of my chest being crushed and my head trying to explode, and I am almost relaxed holding that racked. I feel like if I program right, I have at least a 315 strict press in my immediate future but I am at a loss as to exactly what that should be. Thus my meathead plan of just walking it out and going for it every week until it goes. That seems like a dumb plan, but if it works I won't think it's dumb.

Don't feel weird about advice, I am a shit OH presser and am confident that you and several other guys have valuable insight for me.

[Renascent]

Okay, here's the current bright idea, let's call it a live human experiment. I am hoping it is an adventure and not a tragedy, we'll see if it works to my good or detriment.
I am planning on walking out the weight just like in the video and giving it a couple of hard shoves every week. The goal is for the shoves to go higher over time until it's an actual full press. I am open to suggestions on what I should be doing supplementally to improve the OHP. You can see pretty clearly where I currently fail.

Probably operating outside of my wheelhouse, but would a bulldog grip be uncomfortable for your wrists/shoulders?

[DCR]

Probably operating outside of my wheelhouse, but would a bulldog grip be uncomfortable for your wrists/shoulders?

Same, and seconded. It is the way.

[Hardartery]

Okay, here's the current bright idea, let's call it a live human experiment. I am hoping it is an adventure and not a tragedy, we'll see if it works to my good or detriment.
I am planning on walking out the weight just like in the video and giving it a couple of hard shoves every week. The goal is for the shoves to go higher over time until it's an actual full press. I am open to suggestions on what I should be doing supplementally to improve the OHP. You can see pretty clearly where I currently fail.

Probably operating outside of my wheelhouse, but would a bulldog grip be uncomfortable for your wrists/shoulders?

I had never heard of a "Bulldog" grip, Googled it, still don't know what you mean. I saw two entirely different explanations, which seemed very different to each other. So, I guess it depends on what you mean by Bulldog grip.

[Hardartery]

Probably operating outside of my wheelhouse, but would a bulldog grip be uncomfortable for your wrists/shoulders?

Same, and seconded. It is the way.

So, depending on what is meant by that, I may on fact be doing something similar. The thing about my hand and wrist construction is, they are meaty. It's not viewable in the videos, but the bar is over part of my wrist. I have a lot of meat where the thumb is, and my wrists are just over 8 1/4" . Holding the hand any more upright puts the load on the thumb and not the palm..

[Renascent]

It's not viewable in the videos, but the bar is over part of my wrist.

Ah. That's what I was curious about.

Again, I may be in no place to dole out advice, so my comment was meant to be more of a question than anything else. In the video, it looked like your wrists were cranked back into extension. Bulldog grip is this...

I can't speak on suicide grip (I can't remember ever trying it, though I've been curious about it before), but bulldog grip helps me keep the weight (mostly) centered over the wrists and forearms, all the way through the elbows if my forearms are at the right width. It also seems to allow me to get my arms/shoulders into external rotation (or provides the sensation, at least) as I approach the top of the lift. Also seems to help with keeping my shoulders "stable," though I guess the benefits of the grip might differ from person to person.

[Hardartery]

It's not viewable in the videos, but the bar is over part of my wrist.

Ah. That's what I was curious about.

Again, I may be in no place to dole out advice, so my comment was meant to be more of a question than anything else. In the video, it looked like your wrists were cranked back into extension. Bulldog grip is this...

I can't speak on suicide grip (I can't remember ever trying it, though I've been curious about it before), but bulldog grip helps me keep the weight (mostly) centered over the wrists and forearms, all the way through the elbows if my forearms are at the right width. It also seems to allow me to get my arms/shoulders into external rotation (or provides the sensation, at least) as I approach the top of the lift. Also seems to help with keeping my shoulders "stable," though I guess the benefits of the grip might differ from person to person.

The bar is against my thumbs, it just doesn't look like it from that angle. I do not like Suicide grip at all, I have seen drops and it's really easy to get injured depending on where it is if it drops. No way would I do that without straps on the bar and even then it's pretty sketchy.

[Hardartery]

Just wanted to say again, there are some smart guys on here. Engineers and such, and some guys with a good grasp of muscular anatomy. How much YOU personally do or do not press is irrelevant, maybe you are topping out your genetic potential or at least have insight into overcoming sticking points. I am blasting off of the delts and stopping at what I assume is a transition. My approach is meathead, keep pounding that in the hopes that I can build enough speed to blast past the transition. That is the default move, not the smart one.

So, reverse grip DB Incline? Reverse Grip MP? Front Raises? With DB's? Cables? Which handle? Totally unqualified people produce videos on this every day, I have more confidence on the collective brain trust here tbh.

[mbasic]

I might be wrong. But it seems if you do NOT do the bulldog grip thing, and just deal with some wrist flexion, the bar (CG load) can be closer to the lifter and/or your forearms, elbows, etc can use some different angles that wouldn't be available doing the bulldog thing.

A lot of (you) people are using wrist wraps for support anyways.

Many olympic lifters get away with incredible wrist flexion, with very heavy massive jerk weights. loads. couldn't resist

I think this is one of those things most people can adapt too.

I don't by FoRcE TrAnSmiSSIoN either.

[Hardartery]

I might be wrong. But it seems if you do NOT do the bulldog grip thing, and just deal with some wrist flexion, the bar (CG load) can be closer to the lifter and/or your forearms, elbows, etc can use some different angles that wouldn't be available doing the bulldog thing.

A lot of (you) people are using wrist wraps for support anyways.

Many olympic lifters get away with incredible wrist flexion, with very heavy massive jerk weights. loads. couldn't resist

I think this is one of those things most people can adapt too.

I don't by FoRcE TrAnSmiSSIoN either.

I have some wrist flexion for sure, I never got much out of worrying about vertical hands in previous training, but the bar is contacting the thumbs. I have very fat hands and very meaty palms. I have never achieved a successful hook grip because of it, stubby fingers. If I add tape I can just get the index finger over the end of the thumb with a little traction. So I don't disagree with you, except that I generally don't bother with wrist wraps unless the wrists hurt.

Are you suggesting that I rely on the push to give me the force I need, or try and adapt a jerk? The end goal is Log, but I am not opposed to improving across all implements.

[DCR]

Again, I may be in no place to dole out advice, so my comment was meant to be more of a question than anything else. In the video, it looked like your wrists were cranked back into extension. Bulldog grip is this...

That’s what it looked like to me as well. Rippetoe explains the grip beginning at 1:55 here

Ignore everything else in that video lol.

[DCR]

So, reverse grip DB Incline? Reverse Grip MP? Front Raises? With DB's? Cables? Which handle?

I was shocked to find out in the past few days that my press is not significantly below my lifetime max, despite that I didn’t press heavy for a year (maybe more). I’m crediting a recent foray into very heavy incline benching, nothing special. Very heavy meaning working up to top singles, or sets of less than five reps to failure, or both in some sessions.

[Hardartery]

Again, I may be in no place to dole out advice, so my comment was meant to be more of a question than anything else. In the video, it looked like your wrists were cranked back into extension. Bulldog grip is this...

That’s what it looked like to me as well. Rippetoe explains the grip beginning at 1:55 here

Ignore everything else in that video lol.

That was a lot of pfaffing about to end up with exactly the same grip, just to be brutally honest about it. The bar was not situated differently in the "Bulldog" grip, he rotated it right back to where it was to start with, And for all of that, the bar isn't sitting any differently in my hands. The only real difference is I have regained the flexibility to rack it in contact with the chest and delts. Seriously, there is no strain on my wrists at all, nor is there any on my forearms for the movement currently. The fact that I can drive it from the rack position that hard with no push is evidence that I am in a power position at the bottom. I am confident that a reasonable push will place it higher before the fail, and the log starts up there in the ROM.

That whole video is a shit show, btw. How are there people following him?

[Renascent]

How are there people following him?

He seems to have a way with rubbing some people the right way. If it feels good...

With that said, I get the impression that some of his "followers" aren't following him for lifting advice.

[DCR]

Again, I may be in no place to dole out advice, so my comment was meant to be more of a question than anything else. In the video, it looked like your wrists were cranked back into extension. Bulldog grip is this...

That’s what it looked like to me as well. Rippetoe explains the grip beginning at 1:55 here

Ignore everything else in that video lol.

That was a lot of pfaffing about to end up with exactly the same grip, just to be brutally honest about it. The bar was not situated differently in the "Bulldog" grip, he rotated it right back to where it was to start with, And for all of that, the bar isn't sitting any differently in my hands. The only real difference is I have regained the flexibility to rack it in contact with the chest and delts. Seriously, there is no strain on my wrists at all, nor is there any on my forearms for the movement currently. The fact that I can drive it from the rack position that hard with no push is evidence that I am in a power position at the bottom. I am confident that a reasonable push will place it higher before the fail, and the log starts up there in the ROM.

That whole video is a shit show, btw. How are there people following him?

Yes, it is a shit show otherwise, hence my saying to ignore everything else in it. That said, nah, he's not ending up in the exact same grip. It's not a great angle but you can see in the initial "what people usually" do example that his wrists are materially more in extension than they are after he "corrects" it. It's a very different feel in the hand - I actually had to quit the bulldog grip on bench (and stopped pressing a barbell overhead entirely) because with overuse the grip gave me arthritis-y symptoms across the bottom portion of my palms. Really nasty shit. Switching back to the usual in the fingers grip cures the issue immediately, but takes pounds off my lifts. I've been back to bulldogging bench for awhile, and am juuuust slowly reintroducing the press, hoping that I won't have the same problem if I don't do the movements constantly like an idiot. (I probably will.)

[Renascent]

Seriously, there is no strain on my wrists at all, nor is there any on my forearms for the movement currently.

In that case, upon looking at the side-view video again, I'll second what mouse said about quads (or hip flexors in general, for that matter).

Again, I don't feel wholly comfortable in my ability to give the right advices, but, anecdotally, the first time I pressed above my bodyweight, I remember flexing the shit out of my quads to the point where they were shaking and nearly cramping. That was the day it really sank in that overhead press is much more of a whole-body movement than I realized.

My layback tends to be a lot more egregious when I slack off on hip flexor accessories (but maybe that's just me).

Some light, targeted trap-work might help with thoracic extension too, so you don't have to compensate with more lumbar extension than what might be necessary.

[Skid]

Do a couple sets of 2-3 rep heavy negatives and let the bar down slowwwly. Push press them back up. Make sure you set the safeties a few inches under your starting height cause you're moving lots of weight. Follow up with some DB presses in the 5-8 rep range. Like I said earlier strap a belt on tight too and be as stiff as possible.

Also, I have never felt unsafe with a suicide grip in the press. I can pretty much guarantee you will lift heavier using that way. It just stacks the joints up stiffer and better.

This isn't the article I was looking for but it gets it mostly right - https://www.t-nation.com/training/naili ... ead-press/

[Hardartery]

Do a couple sets of 2-3 rep heavy negatives and let the bar down slowwwly. Push press them back up. Make sure you set the safeties a few inches under your starting height cause you're moving lots of weight. Follow up with some DB presses in the 5-8 rep range. Like I said earlier strap a belt on tight too and be as stiff as possible.

Also, I have never felt unsafe with a suicide grip in the press. I can pretty much guarantee you will lift heavier using that way. It just stacks the joints up stiffer and better.

This isn't the article I was looking for but it gets it mostly right - https://www.t-nation.com/training/naili ... ead-press/

I have no access to a power rack atm, no safeties to set. I like the idea, I also would like to do some pin presses, it just isn't an option. I might see about using the push and negative approach, I just have to be a "Risk taker" in some opinions. No belt in the country with me, and even if I wanted to buy one there are none of my size or any quality available. All I have seen are the cheap leather Walmart grade belts, and I never got anything out of a belt (Which I know is weird). I own a 13mm Inzer lever, it just isn't here and still looks like new.

I have only used the suicide grip a little, and never overhead, I've seen the bar jump out of it and it can really mess you up. I'm not going to a hospital here, so I am careful regarding serious risks. I have been throwing around the idea of mixing in DB work. Are you thinking Seated? Incline? Standing? Neutral grip, pronated, supinated? I credit my newfound comfort with the bar racked purely to Incline Bench work, I think that is kind of a secret magic. Hooper started doing it because Trey Mitchell swears by it, so I figured it was worth a shot. And for me it is worth it, maybe not for everyone but definitely for me.

[dlocas7]

There doesn't seem to be much carry-over between horizontal pressing and overhead pressing, besides the effects of newbie muscle building. I've always been very comfortable with strict pressing overhead. During the time I increased my Press from 185 to 240 lbs, I overhead pressed a lot, like 3-4 times a week for a lot of sets, with occasional floor presses or dumbbell presses thrown in.

Whenever my Press improved, I was overhead pressing at least two or three times more than floor pressing. Sometimes, I only pressed overhead, alternating between barbell and dumbbells. On some weeks, I did muscle snatches, which is another overhead lift that gives some rest to elbows. Over the long haul, my triceps tendons tend to take a beating from hammering the same lifts over and over, but my shoulders have always been fine.

I've read a bit about training in the 1940's and 1950's when the Press was contested, and in general, lifters back then felt that the way to a bigger press is to press a heck of a lot. Frank Spellman was a middleweight who strict pressed 290 lbs at a bodyweight of 165 during the 1956 Olympic Try-Outs. His go-to training protocol was 10 sets of 3 with a weight that went from moderate to extremely challenging. He would lift three times a week. It may sound insane as per today's standards, but it clearly worked for him. Between 1948 and 1956, Pete George brought up his Press from 230 to the 270's by following a similar volume-heavy method.

Some lifters preferred to ramp-up their weights, such as James Bradford and Egypt's El-Touni. The "Egyptian style" consisted of starting very light with sets of 3 and adding 10 pounds over a great many sets until one was forced to only do doubles and singles. They redid the whole thing two days later. Bradford trained like this three days a week for most of his career. This video lasts only five seconds, but I saved it on my computer. It was an amazing press, a true strict press at 175 kilos / 385 lbs...



This is the old "lay-back" style where the lifter moderately lays back and keeps the torso still during the entire lift. As a young man in the late 40's and early 50's, Bradford trained a lot near John Davis, another heavy weight who also used that lay-back style. This is unfortunate that we don't have any footage of Davis pressing 375 in the gym, or of his 350-press in Quebec City.

This is him pressing 331 for a new Olympic record in Helsinki...


This is him at the 1956 Try-Outs, where he pressed 350 (at 9:30)...


Frank Spellman (3:05) and Pete George (4:30) also appear among other legends like Paul Anderson, Tommy Kono and Clyde Emrich.

There are a lot of articles about the art of barbell overhead pressing on Tight Tan Slacks Of Dezso Ban. There's even a 1949 article about the clean specific to the press.

[Hardartery]

Here is my stand on forms of pressing in training and carry-over. In the early 2000's I was actively competing and almost everyone was avoiding any form of fixed pressing like flat bench, floor press and incline. The reason for this was specificity, it was the "fashion" to abandon those things in favour of direct triceps work as accessory and OH work. For a while no one was really even strict pressing, it was all push or maybe jerking if you could depending on the implement. There's the background.

I was benching once a week, and doing OH from the rack once a week, there may or may not have been a third hit on the triceps only with DB's or something depending on the week. This got me to 275 lbs for sets of 5, BTN or in front - same thing no difference. I was flat benching 385 for sets of 5. I was absolutely not maxing period. I got serious with the Strongman stuff and dropped bench entirely and not too long after dropped most strict pressing. This was not my idea, I had a training partner that was a certified trainer and spent all of his time reading stuff or training people. The net result was a 1 RM of 305. My OH never budged an ounce upward from the time I dropped strict pressing and benching. I did tons and tons of triceps volume, we did OH work 1-2 times a week on various implements, with bands, from the floor, from the rack, everything but strict work. My Viking Press got better, but the rest of my pressing stayed unchanged. The max pressers were around 400 lbs in the pro's, a HW amateur really needed to be 335+ to get anywhere. 365 might win an event at a show (Pro or Am) and would certainly give decent points, if Schoonie or Zydrunas was there it was going to take over 400 to win the event.

Jump to today. Now we are talking about 500 lbs at the top, and if you can't press 440 your points are going to suck at the pro level. I can tell you what the difference is, and it isn't PEDs. The guys that were at the top back then were strict pressing, some form of bench in particular. Hugo, Schoonie, Zydrunas - I talked to all of them back then and the thing I picked up was the strict work. Jesse Marunde had added it in and his OH was getting serious (Then he died, unfortunately). Dolan had Thrower's Shoulder, so he was using reverse grip on the flat bench as accessory pressing, even though he exclusively Jerked in competition. My dumb ass started strict pressing again and discovered that in spite of all the work I now had trouble strict OH pressing 225, with a 305 PP.

I would like to throw in, I know that in one specific instance Hugo, Schoonie and a couple of other "Pressers" were training before a contest and decided to see you could get the most reps on BP, with 600 lbs. It was not a single digit number that won and they all hit multiple reps RAW. There was distinct murmur of "Why would they bother doing that? That's just going to hurt their performance at the contest". Almost 20 years later it would be insane to see multiple guys repping 600 in t-shirts just to push each other. We never saw what these guys could really press OH because they all sucked at the clean, comparatively, and were worn out by the time they got it to their shoulders.

o here is where I am at today, as an old man. They young guys pushing stupid numbers fancy the incline bench as the best carryover. I have been doing a very old school basic linear progression with incline like I did with flat bench and OH back when I started. My OH feels better than it has ever felt, and I suspect that I am on the verge of a 315 strict press which would quickly become 330 or so. With shoulder a left shoulder full of bone spurs and arthritis all around, and an almost daily routine of flexibility work to be able to do things like wipe my own backside when I use the toilet. The Floor Press probably has more carryover to Log than other stuff, but I am not removing what is working. I was pressing high volume multiple times a week during the pandemic, it did sweet dick all for my OH strength so I am not bothered to fool with that any more.

My main pursuit id the thing that pushes me over the edge to hit that lifetime PR way past my "Prime",