Training around back injury

[AlexG332]

I've been dealing with lower back pain for about 3 years straight now. I've had some periods where I can train "normally" but I'd say that probably totals 8 months of the last 3 years. Outside of that it's been rehab, failing to rehab or not training at all
Most of the time when I pick up some steam in training I end up reinjuring my back and having to restart. Even though I like squatting and deadlifting, and I know there's nothing inherently wrong with them, it's always squats and deadlifts that cause my injury to flare up again.
Is it maybe time to just put them aside so I can get back to regular training? I've done any sort of leg training outside of squats and deadlifts before.

[Hardartery]

I've been dealing with lower back pain for about 3 years straight now. I've had some periods where I can train "normally" but I'd say that probably totals 8 months of the last 3 years. Outside of that it's been rehab, failing to rehab or not training at all
Most of the time when I pick up some steam in training I end up reinjuring my back and having to restart. Even though I like squatting and deadlifting, and I know there's nothing inherently wrong with them, it's always squats and deadlifts that cause my injury to flare up again.
Is it maybe time to just put them aside so I can get back to regular training? I've done any sort of leg training outside of squats and deadlifts before.

You should stop doing whatever hurts you, figure out why it hurts you, and do something to fix the underlying problem. Not so much because you HAVE to squat or deadlift, but because it will just degrade until it bites your ass later even when you are not squatting or deadlifting.

[janoycresva]

If you have access to a commercial gym you could always just spam leg extensions and leg curls, and maybe add in some single leg work. I'd probably avoid leg press, which can be pretty fucking nasty on your back if you move the wrong way or if the machine is just a piece of shit (and 99% of leg presses are, unfortunately). Belt squats are a good option if they're available. I probably wouldn't drop squats or deadlifts entirely, but just set a low threshold weight and just go in and hit that weight at RPE 5 a couple times a week or something.

[AlexG332]

If you have access to a commercial gym you could always just spam leg extensions and leg curls, and maybe add in some single leg work. I'd probably avoid leg press, which can be pretty fucking nasty on your back if you move the wrong way or if the machine is just a piece of shit (and 99% of leg presses are, unfortunately). Belt squats are a good option if they're available. I probably wouldn't drop squats or deadlifts entirely, but just set a low threshold weight and just go in and hit that weight at RPE 5 a couple times a week or something.

Yeah I have access to a few basic machines (extension/curl combo, leg press, back extensions. I think that's it.) But I've never done them before and I'm not really sure how to program them

[MarkKO]

I've been dealing with lower back pain for about 3 years straight now. I've had some periods where I can train "normally" but I'd say that probably totals 8 months of the last 3 years. Outside of that it's been rehab, failing to rehab or not training at all
Most of the time when I pick up some steam in training I end up reinjuring my back and having to restart. Even though I like squatting and deadlifting, and I know there's nothing inherently wrong with them, it's always squats and deadlifts that cause my injury to flare up again.
Is it maybe time to just put them aside so I can get back to regular training? I've done any sort of leg training outside of squats and deadlifts before.

You should stop doing whatever hurts you, figure out why it hurts you, and do something to fix the underlying problem. Not so much because you HAVE to squat or deadlift, but because it will just degrade until it bites your ass later even when you are not squatting or deadlifting.

I second this.

Typically IME if your back keeps going out if you squat or deadlift regularly a good place to start is to look at how well you brace and how strong your midsection is. That's assuming your technique is OK. If your technique is at least reasonable, then there's a decent chance the issue is either bracing or midsection.

[AlexG332]

I've been dealing with lower back pain for about 3 years straight now. I've had some periods where I can train "normally" but I'd say that probably totals 8 months of the last 3 years. Outside of that it's been rehab, failing to rehab or not training at all
Most of the time when I pick up some steam in training I end up reinjuring my back and having to restart. Even though I like squatting and deadlifting, and I know there's nothing inherently wrong with them, it's always squats and deadlifts that cause my injury to flare up again.
Is it maybe time to just put them aside so I can get back to regular training? I've done any sort of leg training outside of squats and deadlifts before.

You should stop doing whatever hurts you, figure out why it hurts you, and do something to fix the underlying problem. Not so much because you HAVE to squat or deadlift, but because it will just degrade until it bites your ass later even when you are not squatting or deadlifting.

I second this.

Typically IME if your back keeps going out if you squat or deadlift regularly a good place to start is to look at how well you brace and how strong your midsection is. That's assuming your technique is OK. If your technique is at least reasonable, then there's a decent chance the issue is either bracing or midsection.

I don't think my technique is too bad. This issue feels a bit random at times. The last time it reflared, I had squatted 150kg x 3 the week before just fine, then when I'm going to do my warm ups with the empty bar it comes up again and suddenly I'm limping for a week

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

@AlexG332 What is the goal of your training ? Do you care specifically about squat and deadlift performance ?

If you do not care you could just stop squatting and deadlifting and be just fine.

If you do care then I guess its more complicated. Some questions that might help you find the answer to your problem:

- what is the typical frequency, volume, set and reps for squat and deadlift ?
- how close to failure do you typically go ?
- do you train your abs and your lower back ?
- do you have other things in life that stress your lower back ?
- are variations that put less stress on the lower back (high bar, RDLs, etc) less injurious or are they just as bad ?

No joke, I never had back pain ever with squats and deads, but I had terrible back pain sitting in a car for 5 hours doing nothing.

[AlexG332]

@CheekiBreekiFitness
Frequency of Squatting was 3x a week, Deadling 2x a week. Sets and Reps were quite variable, but usually something like 4-6 sets of 6-3 reps @ 70-80%
I don't go very close to failure unless I'm doing doubles or singles. Usually every six weeks or so I'd do something like 5 doubles @ 85% or 5 singles @ 90%
No, not often. I know I'm supposed to but when it comes to non-compounds I'm kind of lazy
No, nothing that I can think of
I normally do high bar squats. Front squats seem around the same, maybe a little better. RDLs are usually worse

I'd say part of the problem is that my main concern (was) squat and dl performance, which is why I never wanted to get rid of them, but I'm kind of getting over that now. I just want to train and make any sort of progress now

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

@AlexG332

So yeah lower back and ab work might provide you with more stability if you choose to return to doing squats and deads (at least thats how i felt when i started working abs more seriously). Plus torso strength is useful in almost any activity. I like weighted decline situps, standing ab wheel, back extensions and kettlebell swings but any exercise that you can train without pain and overload should do the trick.

[Wilhelm]

I figured out how to do back extensions at home, and have been spamming them daily.
Badly tweaked (injured) my back Aug 19th 2022, let it fix itself, did a meet March 2023, re-injured the back in training this last May, and realized i needed to be more proactive.
I've gone to a 35 and a 25 as counterweight since i made this vid.
IF you do this, start out your first rep of the first set slowly to dial in proprioception.
It's easy to get a drift to one side with the feet being close together under the bench.
I also do a hold on the last rep of each set, "20 one thousand"

[MarkKO]

I've been dealing with lower back pain for about 3 years straight now. I've had some periods where I can train "normally" but I'd say that probably totals 8 months of the last 3 years. Outside of that it's been rehab, failing to rehab or not training at all
Most of the time when I pick up some steam in training I end up reinjuring my back and having to restart. Even though I like squatting and deadlifting, and I know there's nothing inherently wrong with them, it's always squats and deadlifts that cause my injury to flare up again.
Is it maybe time to just put them aside so I can get back to regular training? I've done any sort of leg training outside of squats and deadlifts before.

You should stop doing whatever hurts you, figure out why it hurts you, and do something to fix the underlying problem. Not so much because you HAVE to squat or deadlift, but because it will just degrade until it bites your ass later even when you are not squatting or deadlifting.

I second this.

Typically IME if your back keeps going out if you squat or deadlift regularly a good place to start is to look at how well you brace and how strong your midsection is. That's assuming your technique is OK. If your technique is at least reasonable, then there's a decent chance the issue is either bracing or midsection.

I don't think my technique is too bad. This issue feels a bit random at times. The last time it reflared, I had squatted 150kg x 3 the week before just fine, then when I'm going to do my warm ups with the empty bar it comes up again and suddenly I'm limping for a week

Probably wouldn't hurt to look at your bracing and midsection strength in that case. Even as simple as doing a bunch of back extensions and leg raises for a few months could end up doing a lot of good.

[DCR]

@AlexG332, a few things:

1. I don’t think you need to “program” those alternative movements. Pick any bodybuilding routine from whomever you like and do a simple double progression until you can’t anymore. Then figure out what you have to do to make further progress. I know that’s handwavy but if you keep in mind that you can detour as you like so long as you’re always coming back to “more weight for the same reps” (say for a set of 10), you’ll be fine.

2. Not to assume the cause(s) of your issue based on my own n=1 problems, but I’d bet good money that the problem is more weak anterior rather than posterior.

3. If you’d film and post some videos of your squats especially, and your deadlifts, we’d have a much better idea of what’s what. If you do so, don’t change anything in response to this thread. Do what you normally do (but with lighter weight so that you don’t fuck yourself up).

4. What does your warm up look like?

5. As others have alluded to, anything else in your life that may be not helping, such as (again from my own experience) a piece of shit mattress?

[janoycresva]

I've been dealing with lower back pain for about 3 years straight now. I've had some periods where I can train "normally" but I'd say that probably totals 8 months of the last 3 years. Outside of that it's been rehab, failing to rehab or not training at all
Most of the time when I pick up some steam in training I end up reinjuring my back and having to restart. Even though I like squatting and deadlifting, and I know there's nothing inherently wrong with them, it's always squats and deadlifts that cause my injury to flare up again.
Is it maybe time to just put them aside so I can get back to regular training? I've done any sort of leg training outside of squats and deadlifts before.

You should stop doing whatever hurts you, figure out why it hurts you, and do something to fix the underlying problem. Not so much because you HAVE to squat or deadlift, but because it will just degrade until it bites your ass later even when you are not squatting or deadlifting.

I second this.

Typically IME if your back keeps going out if you squat or deadlift regularly a good place to start is to look at how well you brace and how strong your midsection is. That's assuming your technique is OK. If your technique is at least reasonable, then there's a decent chance the issue is either bracing or midsection.

I don't think my technique is too bad. This issue feels a bit random at times. The last time it reflared, I had squatted 150kg x 3 the week before just fine, then when I'm going to do my warm ups with the empty bar it comes up again and suddenly I'm limping for a week

I dealt with a similar issue for probably about 2 years. I wish I could offer some advice on not flaring it up, but it seemed completely random for me as well - some days I could train heavy with no pain at all, other days I would be in pretty severe pain even with like 135lbs. Over time it just went away, and statistically it's very likely your issue will also just fuck off one day. I think the best thing you can do is probably just stay active with movements that don't flare it up and gradually reintroduce sq/dl (if you care about those) later, or just train them below a threshold you know will not flare anything up if there is one.

[asdf]

Frequency of Squatting was 3x a week, Deadling 2x a week.

I suffered from low back pain for years. What finally solved the problem for me was a reduction in volume, intensity, and frequency. I was doing too much, too heavy, to often. In your case, maybe consider dropping squats to 1x or 2x per week rather than 3, and deadlifts to 1x rather than 2.

I would be particularly cautious about adding additional low-back work, such as back extensions, without reducing existing work. I tried that, and it made things worse.

[quikky]

Frequency of Squatting was 3x a week, Deadling 2x a week.

I suffered from low back pain for years. What finally solved the problem for me was a reduction in volume, intensity, and frequency. I was doing too much, too heavy, to often. In your case, maybe consider dropping squats to 1x or 2x per week rather than 3, and deadlifts to 1x rather than 2.

I would be particularly cautious about adding additional low-back work, such as back extensions, without reducing existing work. I tried that, and it made things worse.

I second all of this. Try doing less and see if it allows you to do more. If you find that it does, but that you still need more work, add the extra work via non-squat/deadlift exercises.

[Famendoza1981]

I've been dealing with lower back pain for about 3 years straight now. I've had some periods where I can train "normally" but I'd say that probably totals 8 months of the last 3 years. Outside of that it's been rehab, failing to rehab or not training at all
Most of the time when I pick up some steam in training I end up reinjuring my back and having to restart. Even though I like squatting and deadlifting, and I know there's nothing inherently wrong with them, it's always squats and deadlifts that cause my injury to flare up again.
Is it maybe time to just put them aside so I can get back to regular training? I've done any sort of leg training outside of squats and deadlifts before.

You should stop doing whatever hurts you, figure out why it hurts you, and do something to fix the underlying problem. Not so much because you HAVE to squat or deadlift, but because it will just degrade until it bites your ass later even when you are not squatting or deadlifting.

I second this.

Typically IME if your back keeps going out if you squat or deadlift regularly a good place to start is to look at how well you brace and how strong your midsection is. That's assuming your technique is OK. If your technique is at least reasonable, then there's a decent chance the issue is either bracing or midsection.

Definitely seconded on the bracing technique. It can be quite an experiment, from own experience. Finally found the right cues to get a good brace going, especially with all in response to all the high rep sets I’ve wanted to do without back tweaks.

[DCR]

Definitely seconded on the bracing technique. It can be quite an experiment, from own experience. Finally found the right cues to get a good brace going, especially with all in response to all the high rep sets I’ve wanted to do without back tweaks.

What are they?

[Famendoza1981]

Definitely seconded on the bracing technique. It can be quite an experiment, from own experience. Finally found the right cues to get a good brace going, especially with all in response to all the high rep sets I’ve wanted to do without back tweaks.

What are they?

Hey, sorry it took a while to respond to this. Was trying to see I could summarize without using an authoritative voice, since it's only my experience. I don't train other people so this may come off as navel gazing. Before you read, I only do high bar squat, and these cues have helped make this a relatively painless experience.

The most important cue for me ended up being the three points of contact on the floor for both feet. Without being able to do this both while standing and while moving through the squat (descending and ascending) the squat, for years and even up to the beginning of 2023, used to be a ticking time bomb where I'd eventually get a back tweak on a random squat rep.

As a recap, the three points of contact are
- big toe
- little toe
- heel
with a slight arch in the foot overall. Assuming you can do this, your lift can be balanced throughout the movement.

The thing is, the way you implement that cue depend on the current state of your feet. I have a flat left foot and right foot that seems to have a slightly higher arch. I also have slightly less dorsiflexion in my left ankle. In addition, my observation is that the left flat foot had "closed up" my left hip. This means in the past, I had trouble applying pressure evenly on the three points, particularly the left pinky toe.

So, given the above constraints, the way I implement it is
- raise left hip (glute activation??) to open up left leg
- apply pressure on left big toe and left pinky
- bring heel down by applying a squeezing pressure inwards to my centerline from my left leg, as though I'm trying to pull down a cable with my left ankle.
- Do the same inward pressure step 3 for the right leg to slightly bring down the higher arch.

Now I have three points of contact on both feet. The pressure feels even now. For me the cue "open left hip and stack left half of hip on right half of hip" does all these steps at once in my mind.

Given this setup, I can then stack my ribs as per the common advice to keep ribs down, and apply pressure outwards from my belly to my sides.
For the ribs down setup, I setup my arms so that I keep pressure near the lats by squeezing my arms to wards my sides, and my belly towards my arms. The grip on the barbell is minimal (just my four fingers with my thumb resting under the bar). I don't try to squeeze the bar, my focus is on getting my arms to the sides of my belly, and getting my belly to the sides of my arms.

I then squat and try to maintain
- open left hip and stack left half of hip on right half of hip (have this cue down pat almost mindlessly)
- squeeze armpits to sides, expand belly to arms (constant reminder since my arms like to wing out backwards at times)

With this I can remain more vertical with the squat throughout the motion and have avoided getting back tweaks or even dreading their return. I've also eliminated the pinching pressure on my right hip with this that I've had for a decade squatting.

Some other things that help
- Now I only squat when I feel jumpy and ready to squat. Sometimes it takes 3-4 days between sessions, sometimes it takes 7 or more days. I suspect it's because I'm recovered enough from fatigue that I'm ready, and my mind wants to try to break barriers. I know I'm ready when I stand up from my desktop at work (WFH) and start squatting randomly in my living room, and my mind/body doesn't feel slow or tired when doing so.
- testing my readiness through the warmups. If I'm not feeling good by 175lbs or earlier, I stop and rest.
- finding the right grip on the barbell to prioritize squeezing the armpits as opposed to squeezing the bar. Originally had full grip, then finger + thumb over bar, then chose my current grip which is just four fingers and thumb under relaxed. This likely works because I'm doing high bar.

What hasn't helped as much:
- attempting to increase flexibility or increase dorsiflexion. I haven't done either and improved the squat technique I have massively with my cues. Flexibility is a checklist item that most fitfluencers peddle, since it's easy to visually digest, but doesn't seem to address anything I've found as problems. I'm still considering it for other things though.
- only doing the ribs down cue. I found it wasn't possible to successfully do ribs down, expand belly without first fixing foot pressure. I'd often lose balance and regain it by extending the back more during the lift. A recipe for increased risk of back tweaks.

I'm sure there are things I missed but I think that addresses most of what I've done that has been successful to me.

[DCR]

The most important cue for me ended up being the three points of contact on the floor for both feet. Without being able to do this both while standing and while moving through the squat (descending and ascending) the squat, for years and even up to the beginning of 2023, used to be a ticking time bomb where I'd eventually get a back tweak on a random squat rep.

As a recap, the three points of contact are
- big toe
- little toe
- heel
with a slight arch in the foot overall. Assuming you can do this, your lift can be balanced throughout the movement.
...
Given this setup, I can then stack my ribs as per the common advice to keep ribs down

Yes - this is my experience as well, that foot pressure is the biggest key to being able to keep things stacked and avoid needing to go into extension to keep some kind of stability when the brace is lost. I concentrate solely on the big toes being pressed down, for the entirety of the descent and ascent. If I do so, the little toes take care of themselves, and my issue always has been ending up on my heels, not my toes, and so I don't need to think about my heels. I posted this in my log recently and think it's very helpful on the point of foot pressure being necessary for proper bracing: https://tonygentilcore.com/2019/01/big-toe-squat/

I'm also with you on not squeezing the bar, including with LBBS. Squeezing just leads to elbow pain.

[fit40strong]

Definitely seconded on the bracing technique. It can be quite an experiment, from own experience. Finally found the right cues to get a good brace going, especially with all in response to all the high rep sets I’ve wanted to do without back tweaks.

What are they?

Hey, sorry it took a while to respond to this. Was trying to see I could summarize without using an authoritative voice, since it's only my experience. I don't train other people so this may come off as navel gazing. Before you read, I only do high bar squat, and these cues have helped make this a relatively painless experience.

The most important cue for me ended up being the three points of contact on the floor for both feet. Without being able to do this both while standing and while moving through the squat (descending and ascending) the squat, for years and even up to the beginning of 2023, used to be a ticking time bomb where I'd eventually get a back tweak on a random squat rep.

As a recap, the three points of contact are
- big toe
- little toe
- heel
with a slight arch in the foot overall. Assuming you can do this, your lift can be balanced throughout the movement.

The thing is, the way you implement that cue depend on the current state of your feet. I have a flat left foot and right foot that seems to have a slightly higher arch. I also have slightly less dorsiflexion in my left ankle. In addition, my observation is that the left flat foot had "closed up" my left hip. This means in the past, I had trouble applying pressure evenly on the three points, particularly the left pinky toe.

So, given the above constraints, the way I implement it is
- raise left hip (glute activation??) to open up left leg
- apply pressure on left big toe and left pinky
- bring heel down by applying a squeezing pressure inwards to my centerline from my left leg, as though I'm trying to pull down a cable with my left ankle.
- Do the same inward pressure step 3 for the right leg to slightly bring down the higher arch.

Now I have three points of contact on both feet. The pressure feels even now. For me the cue "open left hip and stack left half of hip on right half of hip" does all these steps at once in my mind.

Given this setup, I can then stack my ribs as per the common advice to keep ribs down, and apply pressure outwards from my belly to my sides.
For the ribs down setup, I setup my arms so that I keep pressure near the lats by squeezing my arms to wards my sides, and my belly towards my arms. The grip on the barbell is minimal (just my four fingers with my thumb resting under the bar). I don't try to squeeze the bar, my focus is on getting my arms to the sides of my belly, and getting my belly to the sides of my arms.

I then squat and try to maintain
- open left hip and stack left half of hip on right half of hip (have this cue down pat almost mindlessly)
- squeeze armpits to sides, expand belly to arms (constant reminder since my arms like to wing out backwards at times)

With this I can remain more vertical with the squat throughout the motion and have avoided getting back tweaks or even dreading their return. I've also eliminated the pinching pressure on my right hip with this that I've had for a decade squatting.

Some other things that help
- Now I only squat when I feel jumpy and ready to squat. Sometimes it takes 3-4 days between sessions, sometimes it takes 7 or more days. I suspect it's because I'm recovered enough from fatigue that I'm ready, and my mind wants to try to break barriers. I know I'm ready when I stand up from my desktop at work (WFH) and start squatting randomly in my living room, and my mind/body doesn't feel slow or tired when doing so.
- testing my readiness through the warmups. If I'm not feeling good by 175lbs or earlier, I stop and rest.
- finding the right grip on the barbell to prioritize squeezing the armpits as opposed to squeezing the bar. Originally had full grip, then finger + thumb over bar, then chose my current grip which is just four fingers and thumb under relaxed. This likely works because I'm doing high bar.

What hasn't helped as much:
- attempting to increase flexibility or increase dorsiflexion. I haven't done either and improved the squat technique I have massively with my cues. Flexibility is a checklist item that most fitfluencers peddle, since it's easy to visually digest, but doesn't seem to address anything I've found as problems. I'm still considering it for other things though.
- only doing the ribs down cue. I found it wasn't possible to successfully do ribs down, expand belly without first fixing foot pressure. I'd often lose balance and regain it by extending the back more during the lift. A recipe for increased risk of back tweaks.

I'm sure there are things I missed but I think that addresses most of what I've done that has been successful to me.

Your detailed account of your squatting journey and the cues that have made a significant impact on your technique is incredibly valuable. Your emphasis on the three points of contact for both feet and the adjustments you've made to address any imbalances in your arches and dorsiflexion is a great example of tailoring technique to individual needs. It's a reminder that there's no one-size-fits-all approach to lifting, and sometimes it takes personal experimentation and attention to detail to achieve optimal form.

Your focus on stacking the ribs and maintaining a strong core while squatting is also noteworthy. Many lifters struggle with maintaining proper posture throughout the squat, and your description of how you engage your arms and core to achieve this balance is a practical cue that others can benefit from. Moreover, your insights into flexibility and its role in squatting shed light on the fact that not all common recommendations work universally for everyone. Your ability to discern what truly matters for your progress is a valuable lesson in itself.

Sharing your experiences and the cues that have worked for you not only helps others who might be facing similar challenges but also highlights the importance of self-awareness and adaptability in strength training. Keep up the great work, and thank you for sharing your journey and insights with the lifting community!