Things I believe but can't prove...

[mbasic]

Excuse me being a downer, but I believe that in a few decades we’re going to find out that HIT cardio, in all its forms, actually was a terrible idea that took years off peoples’ lives.

What, the whole left ventricle hypertrophy thing? (or whatever)
Its probably a thing, but I think if it had a severe effect, we would have seen "the data" on that materialize already.
Xfit caught fire in 2008-2012 ish? ...mostly 30-45 year olds from what I've seen.
Those peeps are 42-60-ish by now. I would think some data would've surfaced by now.

ehh, even if that pans out and they die a little early from a weirdo heart problem, maybe if they stick with their X-fit-esque HIT workouts while they're alive they are living a better life (healthspan vs lifespan thing).

But overall, I agree: people doing "heavy" weight training (or bodybuilder rep & set training /schemes ) are kinda already doing a form of quasi-HIT work, and should be doing some LISS cardio as their standard form of cardio. Not HIIT.

[DanCR]

Excuse me being a downer, but I believe that in a few decades we’re going to find out that HIT cardio, in all its forms, actually was a terrible idea that took years off peoples’ lives.

What, the whole left ventricle hypertrophy thing? (or whatever)
Its probably a thing, but I think if it had a severe effect, we would have seen "the data" on that materialize already.
Xfit caught fire in 2008-2012 ish? ...mostly 30-45 year olds from what I've seen.
Those peeps are 42-60-ish by now. I would think some data would've surfaced by now.

ehh, even if that pans out and they die a little early from a weirdo heart problem, maybe if they stick with their X-fit-esque HIT workouts while they're alive they are living a better life (healthspan vs lifespan thing).

I have no scientific reasoning. Just a visceral thing. I was thinking more of tabata type shit, but I guess that I did say “in all its forms” and you make a good point about the timing of CrossFit’s rise.

But overall, I agree: people doing "heavy" weight training (or bodybuilder rep & set training /schemes ) are kinda already doing a form of quasi-HIT work, and should be doing some LISS cardio as their standard form of cardio. Not HIIT.

In any event, yes.

Sorta detour here, but reminded me of something that I saw once: that if you claim to be engaging in bodybuilding training, and you’re fat, then you’re doing it all wrong. I can think of a bunch of obvious qualifiers / objections (e.g. fat ass off season BBers), but I kinda get it, and it plays into @Zak’s idea back on the first page re: food being anabolic, as opposed to a caloric surplus.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

@cole @DCR The point being, neither of you did an LP as beginners, and certainly not in your first 6 months of training. This illustrates my point.

[DanCR]

@cole @DCR The point being, neither of you did an LP as beginners, and certainly not in your first 6 months of training. This illustrates my point.

What I meant to convey above was that yes, I didn’t, but I’d have been better off if I had. I achieved some half decent lifts for a clueless bro, but when I finally jumped on an LP years later and stuck with it, I got far stronger, far faster, and believe that I’d have made even more progress had I done said LP when I was younger, with all the advantages that come with youth.

To put numbers on it, I eventually had a 355 squat at 40 years old. I’m very certain that had I done a good LP when I was 22, I’d have had 405 with no issue. I mean I managed 295 doing bodybuilding stuff.

[alphagamma]

1) Powerbuilding is a fad and there isn't much indication that they are any superior to any other types of programming. Similarly, the pendulum has swung way too far from "grinding RPE 11s is good" to now being scared of anything RPE 9/10 and the current obsession with powerbuilding and BB programs stem from that.

2) Those who are tall with long legs are probably better off not deadlifting, or at least choosing one of the two. It's just too hard to calibrate the right amount of volume/intensity for both lifts for proper recovery. I don't remember the last time I deadlifted and tbh I don't notice anything different aside from maybe different sticking points.

3) Texas Method gets a bad rep and is actually quite a good way to test 1RMs and provide a mental break after LP.

4) Fatigue resistant people (people with low vertical jumps basically) genuinely need difficult, high volume, highish intensity programs to make progress.

5) On that note, the SVJ is a great indicator of what programming works esp for outliers.

[AlanMackey]

5) On that note, the SVJ is a great indicator of what programming works esp for outliers.

That's interesting.

[GeoffBUK]

5) On that note, the SVJ is a great indicator of what programming works esp for outliers.

That's interesting.

Seconded, poor svj here even adjusting for age (46) Even at 22 I was slow and 'unathletic' also point 4. I assume it would be quite tricky to get sufficient stimulus without heaping up to much fatigue, my grasp of programming's pretty rudimentary, I've noticed for small areas like grip over reaching for a few workouts then taking a week break when strength trails off yields fresh pr's regularly, but small areas probably aren't as fatiguing overall, still I wonder about trying something similar on bigger lifts, I'm sure it's been tried before and there's a name for it, but I just haven't come across it

[Wilhelm]

7. Too many people train "hard" on the big lifts too often and should spend more time training heavier but easier. When the big lifts are hard, they should be hard because they're heavy, not because you're tired.

I'll buy that for a dollar.

[xuerebx]

5) On that note, the SVJ is a great indicator of what programming works esp for outliers.

What's SVJ please?

[dw]

5) On that note, the SVJ is a great indicator of what programming works esp for outliers.

What's SVJ please?

Standard vertical jump.

[Hardartery]

5) On that note, the SVJ is a great indicator of what programming works esp for outliers.

That's interesting.

Seconded, poor svj here even adjusting for age (46) Even at 22 I was slow and 'unathletic' also point 4. I assume it would be quite tricky to get sufficient stimulus without heaping up to much fatigue, my grasp of programming's pretty rudimentary, I've noticed for small areas like grip over reaching for a few workouts then taking a week break when strength trails off yields fresh pr's regularly, but small areas probably aren't as fatiguing overall, still I wonder about trying something similar on bigger lifts, I'm sure it's been tried before and there's a name for it, but I just haven't come across it

That's the principle behind peaking. You overtrain a little and then recover. The gains aren't made in the gym, they're made in the periods in between when you recover. I know, from a hypertrophic standpoint, that there is a practice amongst BBers of prefatiguing muscles. I believe that the idea is wear out the stronger/more developed stuff so that the other muscles have to step up during the compounds and other main movements. Kind of the opposite of approach of doing the compound and then performing isolation work on the weak links afterwards.

[hector]

1) Powerbuilding is a fad and there isn't much indication that they are any superior to any other types of programming. Similarly, the pendulum has swung way too far from "grinding RPE 11s is good" to now being scared of anything RPE 9/10.

2) Those who are tall with long legs are probably better off not deadlifting, or at least choosing one of the two. It's just too hard to calibrate the right amount of volume/intensity for both lifts for proper recovery. I don't remember the last time I deadlifted and tbh I don't notice anything different aside from maybe different sticking points.

3) Texas Method gets a bad rep and is actually quite a good way to test 1RMs and provide a mental break after LP.

4) Fatigue resistant people (people with low vertical jumps basically) genuinely need difficult, high volume, highish intensity programs to make progress.

5) On that note, the SVJ is a great indicator of what programming works esp for outliers.

This is me. My vertical is negative. I need preposterous volume to make gains. I never knew that low vertical was an indicator of a hard gainer. Is this common knowledge? Do people with endurance fibers (rather than fast twitch) put on muscle worse?
(I actually have fast twitch according to 23AndMe, but in sports I’ve always been better at endurance. Idk why.)

[hector]

Here's yet another one: I believe that the vast majority of content available about lifting on the internet is actively harmful, as in, reading this content will make your training worse.

Possibly. I'd say the most dangerous effect is anything stopping people training. Whether analysis paralysis stops them before they start, or a few months in when they've got stuck, or bad programming that hurts them.

Or perhaps I'm just viewing it that way because yesterday I visited my mother in aged care, and she was unwilling or unable to stand from a seated position on her bed.
"You should, if you can. Do you good, help you get out of your room. And the staff will help you if you need it."
"The physio gave me some exercises."
"You should do them."
"But I'm scared of falling."
"Well you'll certainly fall if you don't do them."

People get scared, for different reasons through their lives, of course. One's self-conscious about being fat, another about being clumsy, another weak, yet another's scared of being hurt. We can be all macho and say, "You have to squat or you're a pussy", and to be fair there's some truth to that. But though it might be true, it's not helpful. And probably a lot of the internet stuff doesn't help, as you said Cheeki.

I hope your mother does well in her facility. I’m glad she has a son like you to help her.

[alphagamma]

1) Powerbuilding is a fad and there isn't much indication that they are any superior to any other types of programming. Similarly, the pendulum has swung way too far from "grinding RPE 11s is good" to now being scared of anything RPE 9/10.

2) Those who are tall with long legs are probably better off not deadlifting, or at least choosing one of the two. It's just too hard to calibrate the right amount of volume/intensity for both lifts for proper recovery. I don't remember the last time I deadlifted and tbh I don't notice anything different aside from maybe different sticking points.

3) Texas Method gets a bad rep and is actually quite a good way to test 1RMs and provide a mental break after LP.

4) Fatigue resistant people (people with low vertical jumps basically) genuinely need difficult, high volume, highish intensity programs to make progress.

5) On that note, the SVJ is a great indicator of what programming works esp for outliers.

This is me. My vertical is negative. I need preposterous volume to make gains. I never knew that low vertical was an indicator of a hard gainer. Is this common knowledge? Do people with endurance fibers (rather than fast twitch) put on muscle worse?
(I actually have fast twitch according to 23AndMe, but in sports I’ve always been better at endurance. Idk why.)

Hardly any info on this. I first knew about fatigue resistance from Hanley who talked about it in bits and pieces here. To be fair, The Book™ gets credit for I think being one of the first to talk about how those with low vertical jumps need specialized programming. It's just that we had to go to the women's section to read about it. I wasted 8 years because I didn't make this connection until recently (My SVJ is like 11-12').

I don't know if we have more difficulty putting on muscle, imo we were only hardgainers because the programming was inappropriate all along.

[Hardartery]

1) Powerbuilding is a fad and there isn't much indication that they are any superior to any other types of programming. Similarly, the pendulum has swung way too far from "grinding RPE 11s is good" to now being scared of anything RPE 9/10.

2) Those who are tall with long legs are probably better off not deadlifting, or at least choosing one of the two. It's just too hard to calibrate the right amount of volume/intensity for both lifts for proper recovery. I don't remember the last time I deadlifted and tbh I don't notice anything different aside from maybe different sticking points.

3) Texas Method gets a bad rep and is actually quite a good way to test 1RMs and provide a mental break after LP.

4) Fatigue resistant people (people with low vertical jumps basically) genuinely need difficult, high volume, highish intensity programs to make progress.

5) On that note, the SVJ is a great indicator of what programming works esp for outliers.

This is me. My vertical is negative. I need preposterous volume to make gains. I never knew that low vertical was an indicator of a hard gainer. Is this common knowledge? Do people with endurance fibers (rather than fast twitch) put on muscle worse?
(I actually have fast twitch according to 23AndMe, but in sports I’ve always been better at endurance. Idk why.)

My wife's DNA indicates that she has some special crazy blue eye colour. She has hazel eyes, not really close.

[DanCR]

I don't know if we have more difficulty putting on muscle, imo we were only hardgainers because the programming was inappropriate all along.

A reminder that there have been few bigger charlatans in the strength/muscle community than the clowns (who, IIRC, had no muscle to speak of themselves) responsible for the “hardgainer” materials in the mid/late 90s. Amazing that doing like two sets a week TO TOTAL FAILURE BRAWN!1!!11! didn’t do shit for anyone.

To be clear, I’m mocking the tone of those materials, not the recommendation to work hard. I find the current sheer terror of a hard set to be sad, but perhaps more than two such sets per week would have helped. Of course if one suggested that tons of well known dudes had done endless sets to failure six days a week and miraculously didn’t spontaneously combust, you got handwaved off with “drugs / genetics / you’re not (any of) them.” Yeah, and never will be by barely ever lifting any weights.

[GeoffBUK]

5) On that note, the SVJ is a great indicator of what programming works esp for outliers.

That's interesting.

Seconded, poor svj here even adjusting for age (46) Even at 22 I was slow and 'unathletic' also point 4. I assume it would be quite tricky to get sufficient stimulus without heaping up to much fatigue, my grasp of programming's pretty rudimentary, I've noticed for small areas like grip over reaching for a few workouts then taking a week break when strength trails off yields fresh pr's regularly, but small areas probably aren't as fatiguing overall, still I wonder about trying something similar on bigger lifts, I'm sure it's been tried before and there's a name for it, but I just haven't come across it

That's the principle behind peaking. You overtrain a little and then recover. The gains aren't made in the gym, they're made in the periods in between when you recover. I know, from a hypertrophic standpoint, that there is a practice amongst BBers of prefatiguing muscles. I believe that the idea is wear out the stronger/more developed stuff so that the other muscles have to step up during the compounds and other main movements. Kind of the opposite of approach of doing the compound and then performing isolation work on the weak links afterwards.

Thanks, I never thought of it like that, with grip it's usually just every other day for a couple of weeks then have a week off then hit a PR, I always do much longer training spells with my bigger lifts, though really I don't know why, I just got the idea that was the way to do it, I read some bad training advice years ago and still find myself believing some of it, like the 'overtraining' monster will get me if I do more than one set, and my joints are so delicate since I'm a hardgainer i need to build the weight up S-L-O-W-L-Y!, There's still much to learn

[GeoffBUK]

I don't know if we have more difficulty putting on muscle, imo we were only hardgainers because the programming was inappropriate all along.

A reminder that there have been few bigger charlatans in the strength/muscle community than the clowns (who, IIRC, had no muscle to speak of themselves) responsible for the “hardgainer” materials in the mid/late 90s. Amazing that doing like two sets a week TO TOTAL FAILURE BRAWN!1!!11! didn’t do shit for anyone.

To be clear, I’m mocking the tone of those materials, not the recommendation to work hard. I find the current sheer terror of a hard set to be sad, but perhaps more than two such sets per week would have helped. Of course if one suggested that tons of well known dudes had done endless sets to failure six days a week and miraculously didn’t spontaneously combust, you got handwaved off with “drugs / genetics / you’re not (any of) them.” Yeah, and never will be by barely ever lifting any weights.

Yep! I followed this shit for a long time, believing overtraining's the biggest reason for no progress cutting back until I was doing 1 set less than once a week and wondering how I'm still overtrained, there was even a occasional shit in the magazine about traning twice a month!!!!

On the subject of things I believe... A lot of the success stories in the Brawn camp were people who trained like Arnold and got no where, made a miraculous discovery of 'hardgainer' style training and got their lifts up pretty quickly with it, I think this has been mentioned before about 5/3/1, the program isn't good but it acts more like a peak and/or allows one to display/demonstrate the strength/results that higher volume 'set the stage for', doing abbreviated training from the start was hopeless ( I've nothing against 5/3/1 and I haven't tried it, it's just something I've seen written about before)

[Zak]

-If you're training for limit strength, I don't think there's such a thing as too long of a rest period. I've heard people say longer is better unless you "get cold," but I think they say that just to say something. Just move around enough to keep your joints warm.

-Weightlifting coach John Broz once said he always tried to cultivate an attitude of laziness in his gym, which people may find vexing or off-putting but I totally understand it. I've gotten the strongest training relaxed, minimal psych, long and untimed rests between sets, big sets that are heavy but not "hard". Handle heavy weights but don't stress and don't work yourself into a rage until it counts, and maybe not even then.

-Good Mornings have gone from overused (and maybe overhyped) in the powerlifting community to vastly underappreciated. For a lot of people they're the best way to bag "deadlift" volume. Big stretch for the glutes and hams + no bar in your hands = good. If hip extension strength is your limiter (as opposed to back rounding or grip,) you should try them. Reps should not drop below 5.

[Wilhelm]