Neutral hips stuff

[DCR]

I'm declining to put this in the stupid questions thread because I don't actually think that this is stupid, although I'm open to being told otherwise.

For nearly the entirety of my lifting life, I've performed any movement that could be performed in extension, in extension (in some cases, such as RDLs, substantially so). That includes obvious shit like squats and deadlifts, but also somewhat less obvious shit like overhead pressing, where I ended up in extension by virtue of trying to keep tall / fill with air / push my abs out. A few factors led to this - I have natural, somewhat pronounced anterior pelvic tilt (back when I actually was ripped, it was incredibly frustrating to have a six pack but, in a shirt, look like I had a little gut) made worse by getting fat and years of lifting with it, I fucked my knees bad in my early twenties and so spent a lot of time squatting by sitting back BACK BAAAACK!!!!!, and I understood from a good portion of the lifting luminaries that at least some degree of extension was necessary and fine, with some even going so far as to suggest that, in its absence, I'd be on a high speed train to snap city. (See: Rippetoe, M.)

In the past few years, I’ve had repeated lower back issues, each of which has led to starting from scratch on the main lower body lifts. Are my back problems the result of always being in extension, either alone or in combination with some other factor(s)? Who knows, but definition of insanity and all that – it’s time to try something else and see what happens. That something else is to give a shot to the other side of the spectrum, consisting of the various folks promoting neutral hips / stacked hips and ribs at all times, generally accomplished with a bracing technique that includes (1) squeezing the quads; (2) squeezing the glutes and bringing them forward, up, and under, as at the top of a deadlift; and (3) locking the ribs down and squeezing / pulling the abs in as if preparing to take a punch or doing just the slightest standing crunch.

I’ve done this for two sessions now, with dumb light weights (squatting the bar, and then 50 lbs the next time in) and it’s fucking hard, in two senses. First, I quickly found out that I wasn’t bracing for shit previously, because this was a serious effort. Three sets of five and I’m… wiped? Wtf. Second, and this being the point of this post: I’m finding it very difficult to work my way through the movements. How do I, with glutes flexed and pulled under, permit my hips to move back to squat, forget about RDL? With my ribs locked down, how do I keep a proud chest and push my upper back into the bar when squatting? Also with ribs locked down and abs pulled in, how do I stay tall when pressing overhead? I know that all of the above can be accomplished, because there are plenty of videos online of folks making it happen. It’s just not easy at all (as some, such as Alex Bromley, admit).

So finally the point: Does anyone else brace and lift in this way, and if so, do you have any tips or suggestions?

[Hardartery]

All of that is very....ummm.....complicated.
Why do you have that pelvic tilt? Is it structural? Genetic?

Have you tried doing exercises to offset it? You know, strengthening the stuff that would pull you more into line, and stretching the stuff that would keep you out of line?

Those questions asked, I don't see any practicality or reasonable possibility of trying to keep that many cues straight in your head all at once. And you probably have NOT really been bracing prior to now, honestly.

[DCR]

All of that is very....ummm.....complicated.
Why do you have that pelvic tilt? Is it structural? Genetic?

Yes, always did - this girl used to call me "chicken butt" in eighth grade lol. However, I think decades of being in extension under load and getting fat exacerbated it.

Have you tried doing exercises to offset it? You know, strengthening the stuff that would pull you more into line, and stretching the stuff that would keep you out of line?

Briefly, a few periods of front squats and half assed abdominal work, but really no, for which I have no excuse (beyond deadbugs and shit being about as fun as watching grass grow).

Those questions asked, I don't see any practicality or reasonable possibility of trying to keep that many cues straight in your head all at once.

I'm trying to keep the cues just to pre-initiation of the rep. So: "Quads, glutes, abs...squat. Quads, glutes, abs...squat. Etc., etc. etc." Flexing each in turn and then descending with everything squeezed. My much bigger difficulty has been trying to figure out how to physically perform certain necessities of the movements while all that squeezing it occurring.

And you probably have NOT really been bracing prior to now, honestly.

You're right.

[mgil]

Get an ab wheel. Enlighten yourself.

[DCR]

Get an ab wheel. Enlighten yourself.

Your suggestion is a good one but illustrates the problem: I tried to work with one and couldn’t do it for shit. My abs were so weak that I just ended up in extension with my back hurting. (This was a few weeks ago, pre-injury.)

Also got really light headed, which was weird.

[mgil]

Use it as a goal to work towards then. Like a lot of muscular deficiencies, you can train your way out of them.

[CaptainAwesome]

I kinda wish lying leg extensions were more of a mainstream machine for gyms. They seem like they'd help a lot, especially if they design ones that let your start with your knees as flexed as possible. Same with equipment that lets you do hip flexion with maximum knee flexion and hip extension in the bottom position. I always wanted to try shit like that and see if it does anything for my own pelvic tilt, but part of me thinks it really won't. I can tilt my hips backward, it's just a very awkward and weak position. Almost feels like I have to contract the glutes to such a degree that they can't squeeze any further.

[DCR]

Use it as a goal to work towards then. Like a lot of muscular deficiencies, you can train your way out of them.

On it. It’ll be a nice milestone, given my current condition.

[ChasingCurls69]

Some of those positions are at odds with each other when taken to their extremes, so you may need to adjust the amount you focus on that particular cue for each lift. In squats, if you overtuck your pelvis to stack the hips+ribs, you'll immediately lose it going into more back extension (like every crossfitter in my gym who hasn't taken powerlifting). For RDLs you need a little extension to send the hips back but not a ton.

I like to focus on doing a crunch with just the top two abs in order to get the right amount, and make sure the proud chest/upperback into the bar doesn't pull me out of that position.

[xng]

I have also been trying to use neutral hips to stay out of snap city while squatting and pulling.

Six months ago I hurt _something_ in my lower back or right SI joint by being sloppy in the bottom of some really light high-bar squats. I was warming up with 95 lb and went snap at the bottom. I have always had flexible hips and ankles and have tended to squat ATG, but my theory now is that I committed butt wink, which allowed something to move in my spine/pelvis situation that shouldn't have moved. I was bringing back the squat from the empty bar with very gradual volume progression, but re-snapped the same place a couple months later doing high-rep block pulls. Since then, I've been squatting and pulling _very_ conservatively and have avoided making it worse again.

Finally a few weeks ago I decided to try squatting a little bit heavier but with a very intentionally braced and stacked neutral hip position, AND to try to squat higher so that I would be sure not to challenge the good fixed relative position of my spine and pelvis. That seems to be working pretty well; I'm squatting three-digit pounds again, for the first time in six months. I have a slight irritated sensation in the tricky part of the lower back/hip where the problem was, but nothing serious.

[Renascent]

Get an ab wheel. Enlighten yourself.

Your suggestion is a good one but illustrates the problem: I tried to work with one and couldn’t do it for shit. My abs were so weak that I just ended up in extension with my back hurting. (This was a few weeks ago, pre-injury.)

Also got really light headed, which was weird.

You can regress the movement by using a wall/baseboard to limit how far you roll out until you get better at controlling the ab/back extension.

I think reverse squats can help, too.

[Hardartery]

All of that is very....ummm.....complicated.
Why do you have that pelvic tilt? Is it structural? Genetic?

Yes, always did - this girl used to call me "chicken butt" in eighth grade lol. However, I think decades of being in extension under load and getting fat exacerbated it.

Have you tried doing exercises to offset it? You know, strengthening the stuff that would pull you more into line, and stretching the stuff that would keep you out of line?

Briefly, a few periods of front squats and half assed abdominal work, but really no, for which I have no excuse (beyond deadbugs and shit being about as fun as watching grass grow).

Those questions asked, I don't see any practicality or reasonable possibility of trying to keep that many cues straight in your head all at once.

I'm trying to keep the cues just to pre-initiation of the rep. So: "Quads, glutes, abs...squat. Quads, glutes, abs...squat. Etc., etc. etc." Flexing each in turn and then descending with everything squeezed. My much bigger difficulty has been trying to figure out how to physically perform certain necessities of the movements while all that squeezing it occurring.

And you probably have NOT really been bracing prior to now, honestly.

You're right.

I stopped and gave it a think. YMMV, but here's what I have based on visualization and thinking about what I have seen in other lifters that are not me.

Widen your stance, wider feet make anterior tilt harder to do it kind of forces the pelvic position. No one is actually neutral, and it's actually considered (Or at least used to be) correct form to rock forward very slightly when you tighten up for a lift. I don't remember the technical term, but it is actually a thing, just not an exaggerated one.

Consider doing some ultra-wide Squats as an accessory. Consider even using a Smith machine to allow your knees to be artificially forward (A little)

You want to have your shoulders over your foot, between the ankle and the midfoot. Not ahead of the midfoot and not behind the ankles (On normal Squats, not accessory stuff). I really wouldn't worry much about where anything else lines up in between because that is totally dependent on your individual physique.

Bracing depends on a things. If you are wearing a belt, you want to push out against the belt. If you are not wearing a belt you want to flex the abs "Neutral", you don't want them to push out or pull in you want them to form a wall to contain the internal pressure that forms as you descend. I don't feel any pressure at all at the top, my arms are actually fairly relaxed and the upper back/shoulders are pinched enough to make the shelf but I really am not thinking about it it is just those muscles doing what they need to do until I'm walked out. Then the yoke tightens up a little more and I flex the core. It's not really particularly tight or braced on the pick with regular work weights, just enough to move around and set up. If you always squat with a belt, I suggest it is a crutch for you (In spite of the naysaying I expect to come my way for saying it). For YOU in particular at this moment in time. Go light and get some reps without a belt, it will help you feel what's going on if nothing else but you will likely feel the ab work the next day.

Do the ab work that you can do, even if it's 5 situps at a time and they hurt like hell. Do them multiple times a week. Attack the weakness until that ab wheel is less of a struggle. Also, sit on the floor with your legs out at 30-45 degrees to either side. Try to touch the floor in front of you with your elbows. Get a band or a rope or something to use to pull you forward and down in 5 seconds on 5 seconds off pattern. Failing the rope band thing, try and sit near something to grab and pull against. It will hurt, maybe a lot. It will also lengthen a lot of stuff that's too tight.

[DCR]

I have always had flexible hips and ankles and have tended to squat ATG, but my theory now is that I committed butt wink, which allowed something to move in my spine/pelvis situation that shouldn't have moved.

I’m reasonably sure that this is exactly what I did. Having a rock bottom squat was a point of pride that I used to mentally offset my shit numbers. Ironically, it probably contributed to those shit numbers. Anyway, my ass for sure was tucking well under in the hole and that probably was bad, despite the contrarian pieces the past few years about how some butt wink is normal and it was all overblown.

When I force my hips into neutral and keep a flat back, I can’t get nearly as low, but there’s zero ass tucking in the hole.

Finally a few weeks ago I decided to try squatting a little bit heavier but with a very intentionally braced and stacked neutral hip position, AND to try to squat higher so that I would be sure not to challenge the good fixed relative position of my spine and pelvis.

Per above, I haven’t had to try to squat higher - keeping neutral leaves me no choice. Keep me updated on your progress - very interested, as we’re on the same path for the same reasons.

[DCR]

Get an ab wheel. Enlighten yourself.

Your suggestion is a good one but illustrates the problem: I tried to work with one and couldn’t do it for shit. My abs were so weak that I just ended up in extension with my back hurting. (This was a few weeks ago, pre-injury.)

Also got really light headed, which was weird.

You can regress the movement by using a wall/baseboard to limit how far you roll out until you get better at controlling the ab/back extension.

I think reverse squats can help, too.

I’m a pretty smart guy in certain areas, but a moron once I set foot in the gym. Never would have come up with that wall/baseboard thing - thank you. Gonna try it.

Reverse squats seem interesting, even just for the fact that squats are the one motion that generally doesn’t get reversed in 99.9% of folks’ training. I’ve thought about that before in passing, and then lost it.

[DCR]

Some of those positions are at odds with each other when taken to their extremes, so you may need to adjust the amount you focus on that particular cue for each lift. In squats, if you overtuck your pelvis to stack the hips+ribs, you'll immediately lose it going into more back extension (like every crossfitter in my gym who hasn't taken powerlifting). For RDLs you need a little extension to send the hips back but not a ton.

I like to focus on doing a crunch with just the top two abs in order to get the right amount, and make sure the proud chest/upperback into the bar doesn't pull me out of that position.

This is very helpful - thank you.

[DCR]

Bracing depends on a things. If you are wearing a belt, you want to push out against the belt. If you are not wearing a belt you want to flex the abs "Neutral", you don't want them to push out or pull in you want them to form a wall to contain the internal pressure that forms as you descend. I don't feel any pressure at all at the top, my arms are actually fairly relaxed and the upper back/shoulders are pinched enough to make the shelf but I really am not thinking about it it is just those muscles doing what they need to do until I'm walked out. Then the yoke tightens up a little more and I flex the core. It's not really particularly tight or braced on the pick with regular work weights, just enough to move around and set up. If you always squat with a belt, I suggest it is a crutch for you (In spite of the naysaying I expect to come my way for saying it). For YOU in particular at this moment in time. Go light and get some reps without a belt, it will help you feel what's going on if nothing else but you will likely feel the ab work the next day.

I never squat (or do anything else) with a belt, but I certainly was trying (and failing) to brace as if I was wearing one, without thinking it through.

Will play with my stance per your suggestion. Once upon a time it was pretty wide and got narrower and narrower over the years, to the point where my feet are barely shoulder width. That may not have helped matters.

[Renascent]

Reverse squats seem interesting, even just for the fact that squats are the one motion that generally doesn’t get reversed in 99.9% of folks’ training. I’ve thought about that before in passing, and then lost it.

They might even seem counterintuitive with regard to the issue at hand, but I would recommend giving them a try and immediately contracting your glutes afterwards. It's a hell of a sensation in the lower back.

In my experience, they help with hip extension as well, though -- as @CaptainAwesome alluded to above -- finding a movement that trains the hip flexors in a lengthened position might be more ideal (like leg or knee raises from a Captain's chair that start with the legs a little further behind the hips).

On the other hand, working hip flexion from a starting position with a fully-lengthened psoas might piss your back off at first.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

@DCR here's some broscience:
- I used to buy into the idea that only lifting with a straight back is acceptable and therefore trying to lift with your spine completely extended is the only way to do things. I'm not so sure about this anymore, and I feel that the only thing that matters is making sure that your spine does not move during the rep. So I simply aim to find the position that is the most conducive to bracing as hard as possible, and sometimes that position can be (very very slightly) rounded. It's been giving good results and I never had any pain squatting or deadlifting in the last 5+ years. Also when you look at good deadlifters, some of them do not lift with their back in full extension.
- after reading a few pages of your training log, I feel that you tend to squat heavy often (there are not RPEs but i'm assuming that the sets are close to failure). Like doing heavy squat singles every 3 days or so. Maybe this is what is pissing off your back, and you could try an approach where you keep the heavy work, but alternate with less stressful stuff. I've been getting good progress from doing something like this: Day 1: Squat 1@8 5x3x80% ; Day 2: Squat 5x8x70% Day 3: Hack Squat 3x10-20. Also working on abs will probably help.
- For ab work I think the ab wheel is great if you can already to 10-20 reps, but otherwise not so great, and it does not lend itself very well to incremental loading. Actually I think those goofy ab machines (basically crunch machines) might be good for your situation. I also like decline situps, but if being in a lot of extension irritates your back, I'm not sure.

[AlanMackey]

You want to have your shoulders over your foot, between the ankle and the midfoot. Not ahead of the midfoot and not behind the ankles (On normal Squats, not accessory stuff). I really wouldn't worry much about where anything else lines up in between because that is totally dependent on your individual physique.

Regardless of the type of squat?

I should probably film myself to be sure, but when I do low bar squats, my shoulders are somewhere between my toes and my midfoot (so the barbell is perpendicular to my midfoot).

[DCR]

- I used to buy into the idea that only lifting with a straight back is acceptable and therefore trying to lift with your spine completely extended is the only way to do things. I'm not so sure about this anymore, and I feel that the only thing that matters is making sure that your spine does not move during the rep.

To clarify, my back has not been straight - perhaps just referencing extension was misleading, but my back was in hyper or over or choose your adjective extension - curved, gut and ass protruding. I don’t want to exaggerate it - it had gotten better over the years as I began to squat down and not back and made other adjustments, but I never did lose the curve / obvious APT.

So I simply aim to find the position that is the most conducive to bracing as hard as possible, and sometimes that position can be (very very slightly) rounded.

This is where I am now since the blowout a week and a half ago. Like just the slightest standing crunch but while also trying to keep my chest proud (which isn’t visible).