TRY ROWING/CHINUPS/PULLDOWNS WITH STRAPS

[AlanMackey]

I have until recently avoided any and all curls or direct biceps work during my training life. That was intentional, which I could explain if anyone is interested in knowing.

Yes, please.

[OverheadDeadlifts]

The egg thing is about the equality of pressure around the shell.

That said, eggs are super easy to break by crushing/squeezing with your hands....you would almost have to try so intentionally to squeeze with equal pressure on all sides to get any kind of desired observation of: "wow, its taking more pressure than what I thought" ....but yeah, Its gonna break quite easily, no matter how well / even you grip it.

Well yeah that was the challenge, to try and crush it as if it were a hand gripper. You can definitely make it easier if you want.



at about 10 minutes in you see Juji squeeze like a motherfucker and fail to break the egg so it’s definitely not easy if you grip evenly. In fact only one of the 4 people in that video seemed to have it down consistently and it was by only using the first 3 fingers it seemed.

[mbasic]

Also, it seems to me, maybe just use the straps on most of these "non-important" exercises, as the "extra work" for grip, might just be interference or deleterious..compared to using straps on all rows/pulldowns/chinups/etc. and thus saving your grip mojo for dedicated specific grip and forearm work.

Its like:

1 - the guy who thinks his biceps is getting enough work from all the bicep work in rowing, lat pull downs, chins, pec flyes, and deadlifting (tension in biceps). Probably not enough productive stimulus, and just mostly fatigue, tendon/ligament strain, getting beat up, etc.

or 2 - the guy who does a shit ton of rowing, lat pulldowns, etc ... and then does a few curls/direct bicep work after. This is a lot better than #1..... but all that other 'stuff' thats the priority, is just getting in the way to some degree.

Probably the most optimal is maybe once a week/every once in a while, do an actual fucking arm day where you straight away work on your biceps directly, while they're fresh, not spent already, etc.

[cgeorg]

Yeah straps take your forearms out of the equation, so that you can concentrate on your back, glutes, hamstrings, erectors etc.

I never understood why people frown on using straps for pretty much anything.

Also, unless you are a powerlifter, why should you care about training your grip ? I don't get it.

Strongmen, tennis players climbers, grapplers...

*raises hand* climber here.

The grip strength is super specific and mostly limited to bending the PIP joint. Magnus Midtbo's channel has several instances of people with very strong grips not being able to hold on to small holds. There's also a lot of bodyweight-grip strength ratio that goes into it. About the only traditional grip training that would be useful is pinch blocks. Everything else is crimps on a hangboard or just climbing.

Climbers tend not to have a lot of forearm hypertrophy. It's all tits and shoulders, and even that has to stay within limits of a useful bodyweight-strength ratio. Now many climbers do lean too far towards the low body weight side of things, but there's very much an upper useful limit.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Also, it seems to me, maybe just use the straps on most of these "non-important" exercises, as the "extra work" for grip, might just be interference or deleterious..compared to using straps on all rows/pulldowns/chinups/etc. and thus saving your grip mojo for dedicated specific grip and forearm work.

Its like:

1 - the guy who thinks his biceps is getting enough work from all the bicep work in rowing, lat pull downs, chins, pec flyes, and deadlifting (tension in biceps). Probably not enough productive stimulus, and just mostly fatigue, tendon/ligament strain, getting beat up, etc.

or 2 - the guy who does a shit ton of rowing, lat pulldowns, etc ... and then does a few curls/direct bicep work after. This is a lot better than #1..... but all that other 'stuff' thats the priority, is just getting in the way to some degree.

Probably the most optimal is maybe once a week/every once in a while, do an actual fucking arm day where you straight away work on your biceps directly, while they're fresh, not spent already, etc.

I'm doing this currently, I have 3 actual "lifting days" and 3 other "non lifting days" where I just do biceps + upper back + cardio. Especially if you have some home gym equipment, you can just get in there for 30 minutes and do a bunch of curls until your arms fall off.

[Hardartery]

I have until recently avoided any and all curls or direct biceps work during my training life. That was intentional, which I could explain if anyone is interested in knowing.

Yes, please.

Disclaimer: I am not saying that the reasoning is necessarily valid or true, it is just a thing that made sense for my interests/goals.

The biceps are not particularly useful in Strongman. The point can be argued somewhat, but in general they are not useful in any significant way for any of the events. They were of some value for Arm Wrestling/Wrist Wrestling, but that hasn't been an event in a very long time. Generally speaking, if you are using the biceps you are using bad technique and likely to get injured in so doing. It can be argued that you need them for the Shield/Husafel carry, and the Stone Circle/Conan's Wheel. Honestly, they are not, the biceps only come into play at the end when you have totally lost form and are just holding on for extra inches. These events are a static arm bend at it's point of least strain - you should be using your upper back to hold the implement in position with support from underneath by means of the belly/ab shelf.

All of that said, large biceps get in the way on many events (Not large arms, specifically the biceps). That's problem one. The second issue is that a lot of biceps work MIGHT theoretically lead to reliance on them when they are most likely to get injured and should not be involved. That honestly is how a lot of injuries on DL happen, grip starts to go and the biceps reflexively try to kick in when they have zero chance of saving it but a strong chance of tearing. Great way to get a pec injury as well, honestly, as they will also try to help when they really cannot. The other issue is on Overhead. There is a significant loss of force transmission with a floating rack, even if it is due to physical inability to get lower because the biceps are in the way (Think Derek Poundstone). This matters if you tend to jerk the weight or are not strict pressing 400+ lbs. All of that is essentially Strongman Training Theory, ala 2000-2010. We had conversations about it. Karl Gillingham briefly had some guys doing biceps stuff in the wake of of tears on Tire Flip, but honestly the problem was bad technique and not lack of biceps. Nobody is curling 1000+ lbs of tire, ever. I don't care how much how bring up the bi's, it just isn't going to happen. The issue is trying to curl that tire, not the biceps.

So, essentially, we all felt like biceps training was really about ego and aesthetics, and we didn't give a damn about those things - we only cared about getting better at Strongman. I am fine with a little vanity these days, and I have a weird scar on my left biceps from a work injury that I would like to eliminate one of these days if possible so I have started throwing in a little biceps work. If I was actively competing again, it would go out the window in a heartbeat along with flat bench.

[Renascent]

@Hardartery, wouldn't some kind of direct biceps work be beneficial from an injury prevention standpoint?

[Hardartery]

Hardartery, wouldn't some kind of direct biceps work be beneficial from an injury prevention standpoint?

I would do some reverse curls with the Axle sometimes, but that was for grip and the Brachialis. It seemed like I got plenty of indirect biceps work just in the course of training and working. It also seemed, anecdotally obviously, that the guys with the biceps injuries were also the guys that had spent time training them (Either before SM or during). I'm not saying that it is accurate, it would seem to be a good idea to train them for injury prevention but the bigger concern was causing a lapse in form and trying to use them when you shouldn't. Breaking form tends to be pushing the weight onto muscles that you perceive as stronger or that you are more accustomed to using because you are taxing a limit somewhere. You GM a Squat because your legs hit a sticking point for example. We really didn't want to deal with biceps tears. One guy from NC quit competing because of biceps issues. He had a lot of old scar tissue from years of previous training (Dude was huge) and it kept resulting in minor tears. He was basically walking around with one arm or the other in a sling for a year or so and them packed it in. He didn't seem to get much win out of biceps work to get around the issue. I'm not saying that he represents everyone's experience, but we were all nervous.

[James]

Seems like a problem you will only ever have if you compete in strongman.

[Hardartery]

Seems like a problem you will only ever have if you compete in strongman.

I don't know, I didn't train for other stuff. Also why I only offered to share if someone wanted to know.

[AlanMackey]

I have until recently avoided any and all curls or direct biceps work during my training life. That was intentional, which I could explain if anyone is interested in knowing.

Yes, please.

Disclaimer: I am not saying that the reasoning is necessarily valid or true, it is just a thing that made sense for my interests/goals.

The biceps are not particularly useful in Strongman. The point can be argued somewhat, but in general they are not useful in any significant way for any of the events. They were of some value for Arm Wrestling/Wrist Wrestling, but that hasn't been an event in a very long time. Generally speaking, if you are using the biceps you are using bad technique and likely to get injured in so doing. It can be argued that you need them for the Shield/Husafel carry, and the Stone Circle/Conan's Wheel. Honestly, they are not, the biceps only come into play at the end when you have totally lost form and are just holding on for extra inches. These events are a static arm bend at it's point of least strain - you should be using your upper back to hold the implement in position with support from underneath by means of the belly/ab shelf.

All of that said, large biceps get in the way on many events (Not large arms, specifically the biceps). That's problem one. The second issue is that a lot of biceps work MIGHT theoretically lead to reliance on them when they are most likely to get injured and should not be involved. That honestly is how a lot of injuries on DL happen, grip starts to go and the biceps reflexively try to kick in when they have zero chance of saving it but a strong chance of tearing. Great way to get a pec injury as well, honestly, as they will also try to help when they really cannot. The other issue is on Overhead. There is a significant loss of force transmission with a floating rack, even if it is due to physical inability to get lower because the biceps are in the way (Think Derek Poundstone). This matters if you tend to jerk the weight or are not strict pressing 400+ lbs. All of that is essentially Strongman Training Theory, ala 2000-2010. We had conversations about it. Karl Gillingham briefly had some guys doing biceps stuff in the wake of of tears on Tire Flip, but honestly the problem was bad technique and not lack of biceps. Nobody is curling 1000+ lbs of tire, ever. I don't care how much how bring up the bi's, it just isn't going to happen. The issue is trying to curl that tire, not the biceps.

So, essentially, we all felt like biceps training was really about ego and aesthetics, and we didn't give a damn about those things - we only cared about getting better at Strongman. I am fine with a little vanity these days, and I have a weird scar on my left biceps from a work injury that I would like to eliminate one of these days if possible so I have started throwing in a little biceps work. If I was actively competing again, it would go out the window in a heartbeat along with flat bench.

Thank you for such detailed explanation.

[CaptainAwesome]

Grip work is also good for forearm aesthetics. And seriously, how often does bench press, OHP or squat actually matter in normal life? They don't - for your self-described state of being. Neither does the ability to do 30 ins of cardio, and yet it is probably a good thing to throw in.

Really, none of this is stuff we really NEED, unless we compete with it. I remember an Israetel video I saw where he basically explained this shit is all really a luxury until you get very old, then strength training instead becomes a necessity for maintaining quality of life. But many of us are just people who like being strong, and grip is a thing you can get strong, and it's cool to have a strong grip.

That said, I've been using straps on my rows, and I do feel like it helps activate more shit in the upper back at the top of the movement because of it. For some reason without them the body wants to complete that last leg of the range of motion by curling the wrists and forearms to cover the distance, not using rhomboids/traps to retract the scapulas or what have you. But I don't see myself using straps on all this sort of pulling stuff, because grip strength is fun to have.

I third the sentiment on wanting to know why you've deliberately avoided curl stuff. I could see not really needing it if you worked as a mason, since I've encountered guys who work jobs like that who don't lift at all, and everything from the elbows to the fingertips is pretty damn strong. But I'm assuming there's more to it than that.

[dw]

I started using chalk a few months ago on some of the upper back machines where grip seemed to be stressed particularly hard.

There was a very market jump in performance. I can't remember exactly but something like my AMRAP went from 10 reps to 12 reps.

I'm hoping to switch to straps just for convenience but in the last haven't like any of the straps I've tried.

[Hardartery]

Grip work is also good for forearm aesthetics. And seriously, how often does bench press, OHP or squat actually matter in normal life? They don't - for your self-described state of being. Neither does the ability to do 30 ins of cardio, and yet it is probably a good thing to throw in.

Really, none of this is stuff we really NEED, unless we compete with it. I remember an Israetel video I saw where he basically explained this shit is all really a luxury until you get very old, then strength training instead becomes a necessity for maintaining quality of life. But many of us are just people who like being strong, and grip is a thing you can get strong, and it's cool to have a strong grip.

That said, I've been using straps on my rows, and I do feel like it helps activate more shit in the upper back at the top of the movement because of it. For some reason without them the body wants to complete that last leg of the range of motion by curling the wrists and forearms to cover the distance, not using rhomboids/traps to retract the scapulas or what have you. But I don't see myself using straps on all this sort of pulling stuff, because grip strength is fun to have.

I third the sentiment on wanting to know why you've deliberately avoided curl stuff. I could see not really needing it if you worked as a mason, since I've encountered guys who work jobs like that who don't lift at all, and everything from the elbows to the fingertips is pretty damn strong. But I'm assuming there's more to it than that.

The short version of the reply above is that excessive bicep hypertrophy just gets in the way in Strongman, and for whatever reason it is the guys DOING the biceps work that seem to be the ones tearing them (Evan Singleton for example).
Personal theory, too much biceps work leads to using them when you shouldn't be. I don't believe that working a muscle leads to making it more likely to be injured, but letting the wrong muscle for the job be dominant is a problem and the biceps are the wrong man for the job most of the time in Strongman.

[hector]

Hardartery, wouldn't some kind of direct biceps work be beneficial from an injury prevention standpoint?

I would do some reverse curls with the Axle sometimes, but that was for grip and the Brachialis. It seemed like I got plenty of indirect biceps work just in the course of training and working. It also seemed, anecdotally obviously, that the guys with the biceps injuries were also the guys that had spent time training them (Either before SM or during). I'm not saying that it is accurate, it would seem to be a good idea to train them for injury prevention but the bigger concern was causing a lapse in form and trying to use them when you shouldn't. Breaking form tends to be pushing the weight onto muscles that you perceive as stronger or that you are more accustomed to using because you are taxing a limit somewhere. You GM a Squat because your legs hit a sticking point for example. We really didn't want to deal with biceps tears. One guy from NC quit competing because of biceps issues. He had a lot of old scar tissue from years of previous training (Dude was huge) and it kept resulting in minor tears. He was basically walking around with one arm or the other in a sling for a year or so and them packed it in. He didn't seem to get much win out of biceps work to get around the issue. I'm not saying that he represents everyone's experience, but we were all nervous.

You are always writing cool shit.
I appreciate you posting here.

[hector]

I have no accomplishments or bonafides that warrant me speaking up here.
But, in my purely amateur opinion and experiences, having a strong grip makes lifting more fun across the board.
I never got any sort of soul crushing strong grip, but I can close the CoC #2 (that’s probably the most widely understood standard.)
If you buy some fat grips (great investment) and do double overhand deadlifts on your off days then you’ll find:
(1) the weight will be too light for you to beat up any large muscles. I can’t even deadlift half my normal weight with fat grips. Just don’t do those the day before real deadlifts. You can definitely do them the day after. So zero interference with your actual training.
(2) a few weeks later your grip will be noticeable stronger (at least pinch and open, maybe not crushing)

Fat grip deadlifts are great because they work your fingers and thumb, but even just bar hangs at the end of your workout will do a great job working your fingers.

This isn’t a complete grip workout, but bar hanging is a lot more than nothing, phenomenally time efficient, and it even opens-up the spaces between your vertebrate. Just an awesome stretch. I do scapular chins instead, but same effect.

On my actual deadlift days I’ll often do backoff sets of something like double overhand deadlift for 5 x 5 at a weight where I only need rest breaks of 2 minutes or so. This is great for finger strength (if not thumb strength).

You can also do finger curls with a barbell, and I probably should on my actual grip day sessions, but I prefer to just do the double overhand deadlifts.

[Hardartery]

Hardartery, wouldn't some kind of direct biceps work be beneficial from an injury prevention standpoint?

I would do some reverse curls with the Axle sometimes, but that was for grip and the Brachialis. It seemed like I got plenty of indirect biceps work just in the course of training and working. It also seemed, anecdotally obviously, that the guys with the biceps injuries were also the guys that had spent time training them (Either before SM or during). I'm not saying that it is accurate, it would seem to be a good idea to train them for injury prevention but the bigger concern was causing a lapse in form and trying to use them when you shouldn't. Breaking form tends to be pushing the weight onto muscles that you perceive as stronger or that you are more accustomed to using because you are taxing a limit somewhere. You GM a Squat because your legs hit a sticking point for example. We really didn't want to deal with biceps tears. One guy from NC quit competing because of biceps issues. He had a lot of old scar tissue from years of previous training (Dude was huge) and it kept resulting in minor tears. He was basically walking around with one arm or the other in a sling for a year or so and them packed it in. He didn't seem to get much win out of biceps work to get around the issue. I'm not saying that he represents everyone's experience, but we were all nervous.

You are always writing cool shit.
I appreciate you posting here.

Thank you. I never know if I'm being useful or an annoying old twit. Hard to gauge the room over the interwebs.

[dw]

Related question...

What would be a good pair of straps to use specifically for upper back work like machines, nowhere near 1 RM so it doesn't need to all that supportive, just enough to make sure grip doesn't limit me?

But also...needs to be usable on a wide variety of handles, often where one hand will not be able to assist the other in setting the straps.

[BostonRugger]

In my case the use of different trowels as well as hammers was really the main thing. It's not just isometrics, it's turning and maneuvering the tools with mortar on them, pinch gripping blocks repetitively, holding bricks both to lay them on place and to break them with a hammer. Holding hammers, especially 2 and 3 pound single hand sledges with thick wooden handles. The massive amount of forearm abuse that goes on when running slick finish plaster which requires holding the handle while applying massive amounts of force to the edge of the blade to polish the curing plaster. Swinging hammers also requires more than holding them, there is wrist involvement depending on the angle you need to strike on. Old Masons all have thick wrists and crazy grip strength and rarely do any curls other than the 12oz variety.
Plate curls work, not because they are curls but because of the force applied to the wrist with that disadvantaged leverage of holding the plate by it's edge. As far as just grip strength goes, John Brookfield is hard to match and he isn't doing any curls either. He can, however, break a 1/2" cold chisel with his bare hands among other things. I know the bucket of sand thing was pretty popular for a while as far as working the full ROM with the hands. I never found the wrist curls or extensions to do a lot, honestly. They seem good for rehab/prehab but not for building IME.

Isometrics can also give you some freaky looking forearms. I was a mover for a while in my early 20s which requires a lot of static holds with relatively open fingers. It looked like there was an egg under the skin below my elbow. I got a long stronger after that and eventually hit a 300kg deadlift with hookgrip. I'd bet I have stronger crushing strength in the hands now, but my forearms still don't look like that.

[Hardartery]

Related question...

What would be a good pair of straps to use specifically for upper back work like machines, nowhere near 1 RM so it doesn't need to all that supportive, just enough to make sure grip doesn't limit me?

But also...needs to be usable on a wide variety of handles, often where one hand will not be able to assist the other in setting the straps.

Just basic nylon or leather straps, probably shorter ones because you don't need a lot of wraps around the handle or bar. Or even a versa-grips kind of thing would probably work, I can't say for sure though because I haven't actually tried them they just look easy for lighter stuff.