Strapping deadlifts to mitigate fatigue?

[Renascent]

@CaptainAwesome, not sure if this is a useful question, but how are you structuring your deadlift sets/sessions?

[ChasingCurls69]

I think it's really just the local fatigue in your hands and forearms that gets reduced by using straps. But this is one of those things where people come up with elaborate explanations for it that aren't really verifiable.

[alek]

I think it's really just the local fatigue in your hands and forearms that gets reduced by using straps. But this is one of those things where people come up with elaborate explanations for it that aren't really verifiable.

Aren’t there other proprioception considerations at play? I forget where I first heard this, but it sticks in my brain: if your body thinks it can hold on to more weight, then it can lift more weight, which is why straps can usually allow one to lift a bit more weight, increasing fatigue from strapped exercises.

[CaptainAwesome]

@CaptainAwesome, not sure if this is a useful question, but how are you structuring your deadlift sets/sessions?

3 sets across, in a rotation of reps. 3x8 one week, 3x5 the next, then 3x2. Repeat after that with weight increases on each. So far the 8s and 5s workouts have been a 7 in exertion, the one doubles day I've done so far I rated more of an 8. The ratings are of the final set. After that I do stiff leg deadlifts for 3 descending sets on shorter rests shooting for 8-12 reps. Thus far I haven't really come close to failing on them. Then I do some calf work and seated leg curls that I don't think are really big stressors at all. The stress symptoms really became noticeable this week (last week was the deadlift doubles on Friday), starting Monday when I was doing some hard lat pulldown sets (which were also really putting my grip to work). That was when the first weird mood dropoff hit, and since then I've been encountering things like that all week, along with sleep issues and digestive upsets/loss of appetite.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

If you are sensitive to central stress maybe doing ramping sets is better, since you are only "allowed" to overshoot on one set, at most.

[cole]

i double over hand basically all warmup sets. then i hook grip a top single and strap all back off work sets. if i am not hitting a top single, i will strap all reps but the last, which i will then remove straps and hook grip.

[CaptainAwesome]

If you are sensitive to central stress maybe doing ramping sets is better, since you are only "allowed" to overshoot on one set, at most.

It's just weird, because it doesn't feel like I overshot anything. I haven't hit any real grindy reps. I've only been getting those on the higher rep hypertrophy stuff.

[Culican]

I recall Andy Baker saying to use straps to avoid CNS fatigue.

A quick search pulls this up:

"Deadlifts should use straps on the 5s and 3s week to save the CNS. Pull all your singles without straps. I grip is weak, then do your first set of deadlifts each week without straps, then use straps for sets 2 and 3. Volume deadlifts should always use straps or you will burn out your CNS. Stiff leg deads and shrugs should also use straps. Stiff led deadlifts should be done STRICT with an emphasis on working the hamstrings. Go up in weight when at least 1 set hits 8 reps and the second set does not drop below 6 reps. Shrugs are not "power shrugs" - these are just regular strict barbell shrugs to generate a good pump in the traps."
http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2021/08/st ... baker.html

[DCR]

If you are sensitive to central stress maybe doing ramping sets is better, since you are only "allowed" to overshoot on one set, at most.

It's just weird, because it doesn't feel like I overshot anything. I haven't hit any real grindy reps. I've only been getting those on the higher rep hypertrophy stuff.

It may just be that that stuff is super not fun and you’d rather not do it right now - it’s worn on you. As much as we get whatever endorphins flowing from lifting, and as much as we take pride in being disciplined and self-motivated, and tell ourselves (mostly truthfully) that we love the work, there’s no escaping that this is an activity that by many objective measures is not “fun,” and whether or not it’s fun on a particular day can be affected by a host of factors (although in my case, pretty much solely whether or not I scarfed a ton of carbs beforehand lol). Whether it’s the DLs themselves, or lifting in general, you may have just had a few days when you flat didn’t want to do it and the prospect weighed on you. (No pun intended.) Nothing wrong with that, and you pushed through. Better days almost surely are ahead.

[CaptainAwesome]

It may just be that that stuff is super not fun and you’d rather not do it right now - it’s worn on you. As much as we get whatever endorphins flowing from lifting, and as much as we take pride in being disciplined and self-motivated, and tell ourselves (mostly truthfully) that we love the work, there’s no escaping that this is an activity that by many objective measures is not “fun,” and whether or not it’s fun on a particular day can be affected by a host of factors (although in my case, pretty much solely whether or not I scarfed a ton of carbs beforehand lol). Whether it’s the DLs themselves, or lifting in general, you may have just had a few days when you flat didn’t want to do it and the prospect weighed on you. (No pun intended.) Nothing wrong with that, and you pushed through. Better days almost surely are ahead.

Nah, I don't think that's it. I went into the workout feeling fine, and I honestly don't dread deadlifts at all. There was no rational reason for me to just hate the workout. That also doesn't square with the other stuff going on. The digestive stuff, the sleep issues, even the occasional exercise just randomly underperforming by a huge margin.

"Deadlifts should use straps on the 5s and 3s week to save the CNS. Pull all your singles without straps. I grip is weak, then do your first set of deadlifts each week without straps, then use straps for sets 2 and 3. Volume deadlifts should always use straps or you will burn out your CNS. Stiff leg deads and shrugs should also use straps. Stiff led deadlifts should be done STRICT with an emphasis on working the hamstrings. Go up in weight when at least 1 set hits 8 reps and the second set does not drop below 6 reps. Shrugs are not "power shrugs" - these are just regular strict barbell shrugs to generate a good pump in the traps."
http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2021/08/st ... baker.html

This was where I read that and wanted to know if others had experienced this. I guess I'll just have to try the straps and find out.

[Hardartery]

Although CNS fatigue when performing heavy deadlifts might not be a thing (as in your brain and your spinal chord being fatigued, which apparently only happens with endurance exercise, not strength training), I firmly believe that "central fatigue" is absolutely a thing, and to parrot Greg Nuckols, is probably mostly due to movements that load the spine and make heavy use of the erector muscles, because protecting your spine has a very high priority to ensure your survival, so it makes sense that your body reacts to this stimulus pretty drastically. I think anyone who's done a heavy deadlift session with more volume than they are used to will know the feeling of "central fatigue".

I failed to comment on this earlier, sorry. CNS is not a reference to your spinal chord. It never has been and should never should be. It is Central Nervous System, as in SYSTEMIC. It has nothing at all do with one's spinal chord. It is a bodywide system of nervous feedback, so it is not your literal physical nerves either. It has always referred to your overall base status, and things like loss of motivation and loss of appetite are hallmarks of the overtraining that is CNS fatigue. Sometimes eating more helps with it, eating better usually helps with it unless your diet is perfect, and resting always helps with it. That's what peaking is, overdoing it followed by minimal activity for a few days to a week to arrive at your well rested new higher plateau briefly.

[Hardartery]

I recall Andy Baker saying to use straps to avoid CNS fatigue.

A quick search pulls this up:

"Deadlifts should use straps on the 5s and 3s week to save the CNS. Pull all your singles without straps. I grip is weak, then do your first set of deadlifts each week without straps, then use straps for sets 2 and 3. Volume deadlifts should always use straps or you will burn out your CNS. Stiff leg deads and shrugs should also use straps. Stiff led deadlifts should be done STRICT with an emphasis on working the hamstrings. Go up in weight when at least 1 set hits 8 reps and the second set does not drop below 6 reps. Shrugs are not "power shrugs" - these are just regular strict barbell shrugs to generate a good pump in the traps."
http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2021/08/st ... baker.html

Utter bullshit pulled from his ass, IMO.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Although CNS fatigue when performing heavy deadlifts might not be a thing (as in your brain and your spinal chord being fatigued, which apparently only happens with endurance exercise, not strength training), I firmly believe that "central fatigue" is absolutely a thing, and to parrot Greg Nuckols, is probably mostly due to movements that load the spine and make heavy use of the erector muscles, because protecting your spine has a very high priority to ensure your survival, so it makes sense that your body reacts to this stimulus pretty drastically. I think anyone who's done a heavy deadlift session with more volume than they are used to will know the feeling of "central fatigue".

I failed to comment on this earlier, sorry. CNS is not a reference to your spinal chord. It never has been and should never should be. It is Central Nervous System, as in SYSTEMIC. It has nothing at all do with one's spinal chord. It is a bodywide system of nervous feedback, so it is not your literal physical nerves either. It has always referred to your overall base status, and things like loss of motivation and loss of appetite are hallmarks of the overtraining that is CNS fatigue. Sometimes eating more helps with it, eating better usually helps with it unless your diet is perfect, and resting always helps with it. That's what peaking is, overdoing it followed by minimal activity for a few days to a week to arrive at your well rested new higher plateau briefly.

I mean I feel that we're arguing semantics here but the CNS is literally your brain and spinal cord

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_nervous_system

"The central nervous system (CNS) is the part of the nervous system consisting primarily of the brain and spinal cord"

Now, of course, when bros talk about "CNS fatigue" what they really mean is "systemic fatigue" or "central fatigue" or whatever, I think we agree on that.

[Hardartery]

Although CNS fatigue when performing heavy deadlifts might not be a thing (as in your brain and your spinal chord being fatigued, which apparently only happens with endurance exercise, not strength training), I firmly believe that "central fatigue" is absolutely a thing, and to parrot Greg Nuckols, is probably mostly due to movements that load the spine and make heavy use of the erector muscles, because protecting your spine has a very high priority to ensure your survival, so it makes sense that your body reacts to this stimulus pretty drastically. I think anyone who's done a heavy deadlift session with more volume than they are used to will know the feeling of "central fatigue".

I failed to comment on this earlier, sorry. CNS is not a reference to your spinal chord. It never has been and should never should be. It is Central Nervous System, as in SYSTEMIC. It has nothing at all do with one's spinal chord. It is a bodywide system of nervous feedback, so it is not your literal physical nerves either. It has always referred to your overall base status, and things like loss of motivation and loss of appetite are hallmarks of the overtraining that is CNS fatigue. Sometimes eating more helps with it, eating better usually helps with it unless your diet is perfect, and resting always helps with it. That's what peaking is, overdoing it followed by minimal activity for a few days to a week to arrive at your well rested new higher plateau briefly.

I mean I feel that we're arguing semantics here but the CNS is literally your brain and spinal cord

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_nervous_system

"The central nervous system (CNS) is the part of the nervous system consisting primarily of the brain and spinal cord"

Now, of course, when bros talk about "CNS fatigue" what they really mean is "systemic fatigue" or "central fatigue" or whatever, I think we agree on that.

"Bros" have always been talking about systemic fatigue, it seems pretty impossible for your spinal chord to be tired.

[ChasingCurls69]

I think it's really just the local fatigue in your hands and forearms that gets reduced by using straps. But this is one of those things where people come up with elaborate explanations for it that aren't really verifiable.

Aren’t there other proprioception considerations at play? I forget where I first heard this, but it sticks in my brain: if your body thinks it can hold on to more weight, then it can lift more weight, which is why straps can usually allow one to lift a bit more weight, increasing fatigue from strapped exercises.

Yeah, I was moreso considering the inverse claim that raw dogging grip was more fatiguing than strap. I agree that if the straps add a considerable amount of weight it would make sense that it's more fatiguing, except maybe in cases where it's higher reps still in line with your max single.

Unrelated to the main question, but I don't actually pull more with straps than without for sets of 1-4, it just saves my thumbs.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Although CNS fatigue when performing heavy deadlifts might not be a thing (as in your brain and your spinal chord being fatigued, which apparently only happens with endurance exercise, not strength training), I firmly believe that "central fatigue" is absolutely a thing, and to parrot Greg Nuckols, is probably mostly due to movements that load the spine and make heavy use of the erector muscles, because protecting your spine has a very high priority to ensure your survival, so it makes sense that your body reacts to this stimulus pretty drastically. I think anyone who's done a heavy deadlift session with more volume than they are used to will know the feeling of "central fatigue".

I failed to comment on this earlier, sorry. CNS is not a reference to your spinal chord. It never has been and should never should be. It is Central Nervous System, as in SYSTEMIC. It has nothing at all do with one's spinal chord. It is a bodywide system of nervous feedback, so it is not your literal physical nerves either. It has always referred to your overall base status, and things like loss of motivation and loss of appetite are hallmarks of the overtraining that is CNS fatigue. Sometimes eating more helps with it, eating better usually helps with it unless your diet is perfect, and resting always helps with it. That's what peaking is, overdoing it followed by minimal activity for a few days to a week to arrive at your well rested new higher plateau briefly.

I mean I feel that we're arguing semantics here but the CNS is literally your brain and spinal cord

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_nervous_system

"The central nervous system (CNS) is the part of the nervous system consisting primarily of the brain and spinal cord"

Now, of course, when bros talk about "CNS fatigue" what they really mean is "systemic fatigue" or "central fatigue" or whatever, I think we agree on that.

"Bros" have always been talking about systemic fatigue, it seems pretty impossible for your spinal chord to be tired.

It seems impossible for your brain+spinal cord to be tired with resistance training indeed. But it seems possible with endurance training, which is interesting because it is counterintuitive.

[chrisd]

Although CNS fatigue when performing heavy deadlifts might not be a thing (as in your brain and your spinal chord being fatigued, which apparently only happens with endurance exercise, not strength training), I firmly believe that "central fatigue" is absolutely a thing, and to parrot Greg Nuckols, is probably mostly due to movements that load the spine and make heavy use of the erector muscles, because protecting your spine has a very high priority to ensure your survival, so it makes sense that your body reacts to this stimulus pretty drastically. I think anyone who's done a heavy deadlift session with more volume than they are used to will know the feeling of "central fatigue".

I failed to comment on this earlier, sorry. CNS is not a reference to your spinal chord. It never has been and should never should be. It is Central Nervous System, as in SYSTEMIC. It has nothing at all do with one's spinal chord. It is a bodywide system of nervous feedback, so it is not your literal physical nerves either. It has always referred to your overall base status, and things like loss of motivation and loss of appetite are hallmarks of the overtraining that is CNS fatigue. Sometimes eating more helps with it, eating better usually helps with it unless your diet is perfect, and resting always helps with it. That's what peaking is, overdoing it followed by minimal activity for a few days to a week to arrive at your well rested new higher plateau briefly.

I mean I feel that we're arguing semantics here but the CNS is literally your brain and spinal cord

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_nervous_system

"The central nervous system (CNS) is the part of the nervous system consisting primarily of the brain and spinal cord"

Now, of course, when bros talk about "CNS fatigue" what they really mean is "systemic fatigue" or "central fatigue" or whatever, I think we agree on that.

"Bros" have always been talking about systemic fatigue, it seems pretty impossible for your spinal chord to be tired.

It seems impossible for your brain+spinal cord to be tired with resistance training indeed. But it seems possible with endurance training, which is interesting because it is counterintuitive.

Gonna challenge that by speculating wildly and not looking up any actual facts.

Your CNS has the job of motor control. When you lift heavy, you have to fire up a bunch of motor units in your muscles. This would mean the appropriate synapses being used a lot more that they would be if you were lifting light weights or ... well, something pretty easy.

Anyway. Firing up all those big muscles means more activity in the CNS, definitely in the spinal column (possibly not so much the brain because, powerlifters). All that activity probably (with a confidence interval of 0.86*) depletes the chemicals needed for transmission across the synapses, so the ability to replicate the effort will be reduced.

In an evolutionary sense, this would be advantageous because all the proto-humans who did not have this limiting mechanism would have died of exhaustion, jacked, but dead.

I did psychology at first year level and that included neurophysiology, so that makes me an expert.

* I really am just making this up

[Culican]

"Deadlifts should use straps on the 5s and 3s week to save the CNS. Pull all your singles without straps. I grip is weak, then do your first set of deadlifts each week without straps, then use straps for sets 2 and 3. Volume deadlifts should always use straps or you will burn out your CNS. Stiff leg deads and shrugs should also use straps. Stiff led deadlifts should be done STRICT with an emphasis on working the hamstrings. Go up in weight when at least 1 set hits 8 reps and the second set does not drop below 6 reps. Shrugs are not "power shrugs" - these are just regular strict barbell shrugs to generate a good pump in the traps."
http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2021/08/st ... baker.html

This was where I read that and wanted to know if others had experienced this. I guess I'll just have to try the straps and find out.

After I read this a few years ago, I implemented it half way. I never use straps for regular deadlifts. I am sort of a purist in that I consider gripping the bar to be an integral part of the movement (just a personal preference). I did change to using straps for shrugs and RDLs. Not to avoid CNS issues, but because I find that I can concentrate on the movement much better without having to concentrate on my grip a the same time.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Although CNS fatigue when performing heavy deadlifts might not be a thing (as in your brain and your spinal chord being fatigued, which apparently only happens with endurance exercise, not strength training), I firmly believe that "central fatigue" is absolutely a thing, and to parrot Greg Nuckols, is probably mostly due to movements that load the spine and make heavy use of the erector muscles, because protecting your spine has a very high priority to ensure your survival, so it makes sense that your body reacts to this stimulus pretty drastically. I think anyone who's done a heavy deadlift session with more volume than they are used to will know the feeling of "central fatigue".

I failed to comment on this earlier, sorry. CNS is not a reference to your spinal chord. It never has been and should never should be. It is Central Nervous System, as in SYSTEMIC. It has nothing at all do with one's spinal chord. It is a bodywide system of nervous feedback, so it is not your literal physical nerves either. It has always referred to your overall base status, and things like loss of motivation and loss of appetite are hallmarks of the overtraining that is CNS fatigue. Sometimes eating more helps with it, eating better usually helps with it unless your diet is perfect, and resting always helps with it. That's what peaking is, overdoing it followed by minimal activity for a few days to a week to arrive at your well rested new higher plateau briefly.

I mean I feel that we're arguing semantics here but the CNS is literally your brain and spinal cord

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_nervous_system

"The central nervous system (CNS) is the part of the nervous system consisting primarily of the brain and spinal cord"

Now, of course, when bros talk about "CNS fatigue" what they really mean is "systemic fatigue" or "central fatigue" or whatever, I think we agree on that.

"Bros" have always been talking about systemic fatigue, it seems pretty impossible for your spinal chord to be tired.

It seems impossible for your brain+spinal cord to be tired with resistance training indeed. But it seems possible with endurance training, which is interesting because it is counterintuitive.

Gonna challenge that by speculating wildly and not looking up any actual facts.

Your CNS has the job of motor control. When you lift heavy, you have to fire up a bunch of motor units in your muscles. This would mean the appropriate synapses being used a lot more that they would be if you were lifting light weights or ... well, something pretty easy.

Anyway. Firing up all those big muscles means more activity in the CNS, definitely in the spinal column (possibly not so much the brain because, powerlifters). All that activity probably (with a confidence interval of 0.86*) depletes the chemicals needed for transmission across the synapses, so the ability to replicate the effort will be reduced.

In an evolutionary sense, this would be advantageous because all the proto-humans who did not have this limiting mechanism would have died of exhaustion, jacked, but dead.

I did psychology at first year level and that included neurophysiology, so that makes me an expert.

* I really am just making this up

As far as I understand, while activating your muscles to lift heavy weights a few times implies CNS activity, it probably does not require the CNS to do so much work that you end up fatiguing it. Now, on the other hand your peripheral nervous system will absolutely get fatigued by lifting heavy weights, and I would imagine that neurotransmitter depletion mostly occurs there, not in the brain and spinal cord.

On the other hand, doing something like a trail run where you run continuously for 100 kms (where you will perform thousands after thousands of muscle contractions) will apparently fatigue your CNS as the studies claim.

PS: I'm no expert of physiology either, so I give a low confidence value to my opinion on this particular topic.

[Hardartery]

Although CNS fatigue when performing heavy deadlifts might not be a thing (as in your brain and your spinal chord being fatigued, which apparently only happens with endurance exercise, not strength training), I firmly believe that "central fatigue" is absolutely a thing, and to parrot Greg Nuckols, is probably mostly due to movements that load the spine and make heavy use of the erector muscles, because protecting your spine has a very high priority to ensure your survival, so it makes sense that your body reacts to this stimulus pretty drastically. I think anyone who's done a heavy deadlift session with more volume than they are used to will know the feeling of "central fatigue".

I failed to comment on this earlier, sorry. CNS is not a reference to your spinal chord. It never has been and should never should be. It is Central Nervous System, as in SYSTEMIC. It has nothing at all do with one's spinal chord. It is a bodywide system of nervous feedback, so it is not your literal physical nerves either. It has always referred to your overall base status, and things like loss of motivation and loss of appetite are hallmarks of the overtraining that is CNS fatigue. Sometimes eating more helps with it, eating better usually helps with it unless your diet is perfect, and resting always helps with it. That's what peaking is, overdoing it followed by minimal activity for a few days to a week to arrive at your well rested new higher plateau briefly.

I mean I feel that we're arguing semantics here but the CNS is literally your brain and spinal cord

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_nervous_system

"The central nervous system (CNS) is the part of the nervous system consisting primarily of the brain and spinal cord"

Now, of course, when bros talk about "CNS fatigue" what they really mean is "systemic fatigue" or "central fatigue" or whatever, I think we agree on that.

"Bros" have always been talking about systemic fatigue, it seems pretty impossible for your spinal chord to be tired.

It seems impossible for your brain+spinal cord to be tired with resistance training indeed. But it seems possible with endurance training, which is interesting because it is counterintuitive.

I keep seeing that written, but no actual evidence in favour of it being true. Personal experience tells me that cardio is not a factor in it for me at all. I may be tired after I get off the treadmill or bike, or want a rest after a serious walk, but that is an extremely temporary condition and does not affect my lifting in any measureable way. Pulling heavy DL for an extended session or a brutal squat workout will absolutely affect me for a day or two, and if I stitch them together too frequently everything starts to tank. An hour a day of HIIT cardion on the treadmill did not have that effect on me, in spite of heavy SM training for a contest.

*** I should add, I was diagnosed more than once as an adult as having fairly heavy duty ADD/ADHD. My catecholamine experience probably differs significantly from the norm, and lifting heavy gives me very large shot of Dopamine and it's cohorts. I can get more out of some very heavy lifts mood wise than I could get out of even an irresponsible dose of Adderall.