TRT MEGA THREAD

[mbasic]

We need one of these ....

The only thing that bothers me is this whole trend of men who are 35 taking TRT.

I mean at 35 you should not need any hormonal treatment, this is ridiculous.

What about 20-25 year olds on TRT? (this really deserves its own thread)
I have been utterly fascinated with the whole TRT trend thing going on lately ....
Reddit r/TRT is a hoot.

How its over Rx'd, and generally how the treatments are executed poorly too ....
(e.g. a guy getting a huge a shot of test once every three weeks or something).

Its a perfect storm of:
1- Horrible obesity epidemic
2- Horrible evolution of our lifestyles (no phys.activity, sun, diet, etc)
3- Not "big-phrama" perse, but the typical commercial/capitalistic motives by industry.
4- And I believe in the whole chemical endocrine disruptor theories. **
5- Cell phone/internet overuse of modern-day-super-porn (causing ED, etc)
6- Societal breakdown of how relationships and sex works.
7- General poor mental health of society as a whole.

A big part of TRT advertising .... and even your own doctor will say .... your dick ain't working right because of your low T.
They might be a little right, but 1,2,5,6,7 has a lot to do with that too.
That's a big motivator for TRT.
That said, there's a lot of stories of TRT NOT fixing dick problems in the end.... lolz.

1,2,5,6,7 can be fixed by the individual. Might take many months/year(s) though ....

I believe partly 1,2,4 after a certain point .... having done their damage ....may not be fully reversible.
Maybe 10-20% of 35 y.o's fall into that category. Thus legit needing TRT.

I also believe these things may totally fuck-over pubescent kids to the point where they won't catchup later even if these things are corrected.

[mbasic]

example:



his low T symptoms were:

"can't rep out 315 on bench like a boss"
"I still fit through doorways"

Its funny the only 'before' pic he has on file is him shooting an AR-15 on a playground version of a czech-hedgehog.

========================

title says it all

[dw]

Have noticed the same. Also kids getting on gear at the same time they start going to the gym. I guess waiting until hit a wall is too old-fashioned.

Don't know what to make of this. Schadenfreude aside I do suspect a lifetime of T enhancement is not going to be easy on the body.

[BostonRugger]

AK guys. Classic

[mbasic]

AK guys. Classic

did I least get the beach-landing-obstacle thingy right?

"pew pew pew" .... "dat dat dat dat dat dat !!!!"

[BostonRugger]

"pew pew pew" ...*wheezing*

[murphyreedus]

[Hardartery]

It seems to be a fad lately for people to jump on TRT as a solution without bothering to investigate first. Someone with normal T levels is not going to see anything positive from reasonable TRT dosing. It has nothing to do with how fat or skinny someone is, it has nothing to do with any of the other symptoms typically referenced, it has to do with evidence based medicine in diagnosis. You can have all of the problems associated with low T without having low T, or even have low T and the symptoms and still be better off figuring out why the T is low before dosing up. People are ill-informed, and Reddit is a collector of ignorant "Experts".
TRT is complicated, and should by no means be entrusted to a GP/PCP. Even a lot of endos are ill qualified to handle it and it is technically part of their specialization. Are we discussing the modern fad, or are we having an actual discussion of the subject?

[OverheadDeadlifts]

1,2,5,6,7 can be fixed by the individual. Might take many months/year(s) though ....

Oh absolutely. I’m actually very glad the NHS are reluctant to give out testosterone in the UK. I had my levels checked when I was 18 and one reading was a hair within normal and the other wasn’t much higher either. It didn’t concern them though since it was within the range. They wanted to check it again last year (I’m 28 now) for some sleep issues I was having and it came back significantly higher than when I was 18. About 75% higher.

Like @Hardartery pointed out, I think part of the problem is that most of the symptoms of low T can also just be consequences of very common lifestyle choices for young men.

You jackhammer your dick (with an erection funnily enough) to 10 different kinds of porn twice a day? No wonder you can’t get hard for actual sex. You don’t do cardio, you play video games all day and sleep 5 hours per night? Gee I wonder why you’re so tired and ‘lack drive’. You’ve been benching 3x5 for 6 months are you wonder why you’re not jacked and can’t bench 2 plates? Surely it must be your test levels. You don’t eat decent food, indulge in crap and binge drink regularly? That can’t be why you’re skinnyfat, can it?

If I lived in the US I’m fairly confident I would be on TRT by now given what I’m seeing online.

[mbasic]

Are we discussing the modern fad, or are we having an actual discussion of the subject?

Why not both?

I think we all agree on the 'fad' thing. I think 'fad' is a bit misleading though. Its unfortunately the (only) way society, and medical-health-care-industrial complex work now; it has made this ubiquitous protocol of "taking a pill" to fix a problem/illness/condition that is a resultant of something else. Always chasing the problem after the fact. Many times is too late to attack the original problem (see: many cancers), OR, its going to take a long time to undo the damage....especially in your late 30's-60's.

re: The reddit and other forums? IDK, it seems like a lot of those people have a better grasp of TRT protocols than the health care industry, as you mentioned. Admittedly, a lot of bad advice there too. From reddit, I'm not sure on this, but I think/it seems perhaps in Canada/EU if people go thru their gov't healthcare program ..... you'll only get into the "T-doctor" once every 3 weeks or so, and get a HUGE dose of test .... which is hardly the thing to do. I have a family member here in the US is on a similar protocol from some reason; I know his "doctor" is very old.

[mbasic]

My take from watching this^ video:

Alan: "Blah blah blah"

mbasic's thoughts in head/echo voice: damn, thats a nice ass gym he has.

Seriously, he seemed to mostly talk about it from a diet and exercise POV .....stayed away from the porn thing / toxic relationships with females and society in general....being over-internetted, social media obessed, chronic video game play, etc.

No one wants to hear they are a product of their last 10 years. "I felt that" (lolz)

[murphyreedus]

Seriously, he seemed to mostly talk about it from a diet and exercise POV .....stayed away from the porn thing / toxic relationships with females and society in general....being over-internetted, social media obessed, chronic video game play, etc.

He definitely was targeting the "30+ dadbod guy" and not the incel/internet weirdo demographic. I haven't been brave enough to go to r/trt; is that essentially what is going on over there?

[Hardartery]

Are we discussing the modern fad, or are we having an actual discussion of the subject?

Why not both?

I think we all agree on the 'fad' thing. I think 'fad' is a bit misleading though. Its unfortunately the (only) way society, and medical-health-care-industrial complex work now; it has made this ubiquitous protocol of "taking a pill" to fix a problem/illness/condition that is a resultant of something else. Always chasing the problem after the fact. Many times is too late to attack the original problem (see: many cancers), OR, its going to take a long time to undo the damage....especially in your late 30's-60's.

re: The reddit and other forums? IDK, it seems like a lot of those people have a better grasp of TRT protocols than the health care industry, as you mentioned. Admittedly, a lot of bad advice there too. From reddit, I'm not sure on this, but I think/it seems perhaps in Canada/EU if people go thru their gov't healthcare program ..... you'll only get into the "T-doctor" once every 3 weeks or so, and get a HUGE dose of test .... which is hardly the thing to do. I have a family member here in the US is on a similar protocol from some reason; I know his "doctor" is very old.

It may not be the best word to use as a descriptor, it's just what came to mind.

Getting a shot every three weeks is actually in writing in some literature for the doctors as the correct use for Cypionate. It's not, it's actually a terrible way to do it, but we all know how that goes. I am on TRT, disclaimer, and have been for most of the last 5 years. I was diagnosed and prescribed testogel by an endo while pursuing a separate medical issue. In my history are other low test level labs going back many years prior. I had low test the entire time that I competed in Strongman, borderline clinically low, and didn't know enough to know that. Full disclosure, I am on 250 mg of Sustanon every two weeks, which is different than taking an ester like cypionate or enanthate - I would be taking 125mg a week of either of those to be roughly equivalent. I know Sustanon is not available in the US and I don't think that you can get it in Canada either (Legally, there's plenty of it blackmarket). I never took the gel, because the diagnosis came out of the blue and I don't take stuff before I do research. Research led me to go with injections, and I have played with what and how often to get where I am now.
I have tried a restart, using Clomiphene, and I was basically right where I was before starting TRT after about 6 weeks so I went back on after about 3 months. I would very much prefer to not be taking anything at all, for those wondering about whether or not it's a panacea, and it is not because I don't like needles or something along those lines. I do not consider myself natty, but I am running middle of the range test levels. I could run whatever I want, it is all OTC in Central America and my US endo will write me a scrip in the US whenever I need one. The bottles are 200mg in the US, and they don't do a lot of math on dispensing I would simply be getting handed 200mg a week which builds up over time to be an impressive collection of unused bottles for those inclined to blast. It is a very safe and inexpensive drug for adults, it will positively screw up someone that is not yet fully mature and will positively be harmful to brain development to those under 24-26 (Depending on the individual).

[mbasic]

Seriously, he seemed to mostly talk about it from a diet and exercise POV .....stayed away from the porn thing / toxic relationships with females and society in general....being over-internetted, social media obessed, chronic video game play, etc.

He definitely was targeting the "30+ dadbod guy" and not the incel/internet weirdo demographic.

Somebody needs to make a Venn diagram....about 7 circles.
Those two characters^ definitely have a lot of the same problems.

I haven't been brave enough to go to r/trt; is that essentially what is going on over there?

A lot of people that just want to be on steroids and are rationalizing it with TRT, get jacked.

"hard time putting on muscle" is a common lowT symptom that's mentioned.
That's pretty much everyone mother fucker; and for the right quartile of the bell curve or whatever, thats a thing that had nothing to do with Test levels.

---------------------

Then there's the people who have dick problems.
The funny turn here in the story, is that raising your TRT doesn't necessarily fix that every time ....
...the root ED problems are still the same.

Many times these TRT'er's estrogen goes wonky if the TRT is administered incorrectly .... leading to more dick/libido problems.

There's a subset whose dick worked fine, and then had ED problems after starting TRT.
(test levels way too high; and/or estrogen levels getting out of whack)

----------------------

Then, there's what Hardartery describes: Reddit-endocrine-docs.

[mbasic]

Also, I really like the message of this video ....

....but I think something gets lost with Alan trying to send it.

He is .... kind of freak.
In that the dude seems overly obsessed with working out, and eating right.
(lol at his video about working out while on vacation)
Owns a gym. Is a coach. Is tied to or, around some of the best in the 'fitness industry' all the time.
Eats, sleeps, and drinks: gym, strongman, fitness culture.

I get it. That's what most people (unless you have awesome genes) need to do to get THAT kind of physique.

I don't know my point really .... just seems a little fake.
(I don't care for the guy at all), but it seems like if someone LIKE that Art-of-Manliness guy (Brett?) had a similar video
with a similar message, it'd be more palpable to the general public.

[5hout]

The biggest thing for me is that I've simply never stalled when I ate right, slept and lifted consistently. Doing those things (usually 2 of them) means the lifts go up up up. Now, the decision to have a 2nd kid might have been less than optimal from a lifting perspective (I am not a superhuman, I do not lift when I get 4-5 hours of sleep).

But, I look at the Sports TRT/TRT in their 20s people on reddit/Instagram and all I see is a fucking field of people on cycle calling it TRT b/c they don't sleep, eat like shit, have 0 cardio, 0 real lifting and the answer is "do drugs, then fix everything else at the same time and then credit ALL my results to the drugs". You could inject these chuckleheads with an anti-depressant or placebo and since it would inspire them to take food/sleep/lifting seriously they'd get almost the same results.

I also think the availability of good info online might be oddly harmful in some ways. Before they would get one shot every 10 days or 2 weeks and it wouldn't do shit, so they'd be inspired to make life changes (or not). Now, they all know to pin small frequent doses and have 800 other hacks (have no doubt involving research chemicals) and it's a much more effective protocol, which confounds the result that what they really need is sleep+diet+lifting for a few weeks.

The shot every 10-14 days craters their natural test and leaves them feeling crap, so I guess this is better. Just feels like maybe it should be gated behind "actual attempt at lifestyle change" before "you're 25 and tired b/c you're living like an 18 year old? drugs my man!"

EDIT: Search that subreddit for 250. The # of people on TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY A WEEK would blow your fucking mind.

https://www.reddit.com/r/trt/comments/1 ... _e_a_week/

My man is jacked on a mere 125mg SubQ twice a week, plus diet/sleep/lifting!

[Hardartery]

I want to say a few things that have been touched on, but don't want anyone thinking I am calling out what they said or anything coming off the wrong way. This is my experience plus my research and not directed at anyone on here.

Any level of testosterone that you take will result in full shutdown of natural production after a few weeks. Any. There is no threshold. It doesn't necessarily happen faster with a higher dose either.

Test number levels are irrelevant on their own. The number MUST be put into the context of it's reference range, which is always given with the lab result. There is NO standardization across labs for this number or range, you can even get a different number and range from one Labcorp to another. People frequently give just the number. Meaningless. Telling me you have a "300" test means nothing. That could be on a range of 250-750, 350-1200, or anywhere in between. The range is at least as important as the number, and where you should be in that range depends on your age. A 25 year old should NOT be at the bottom of the range, but that doesn't mean that he needs TRT.

Estradiol (E2) is actually super important, it's the thing that protects your heart and joints, so controlling it is usually a huge mistake and causes a lot of damage if you are only on a TRT dose. And no, <200mg a week is not going to give you gyno, that's stupid. Out of balance E2 can definitely give you ED though, ask the guys that like to blast.

TRT will not make you jacked and burn off all of your extra fat. It will help you with motivation and depression, dopamine production (And other catecholamines) is dependent on available test and it's aromatization, so it helps get your ass off the couch and motivates chasing the wife around the house a little more. You want to look like the Rock, regular TRT by itself will not get you there.

Higher test means bigger shoulders. Not joking here. you have a ton of androgen receptors in the chest and shoulders, increasing your androgen levels inflates them a little.

For most people a therapeutic dose is 100-130mg a week. Not 200, not 250, not 300. Those bigger numbers are for special cases like bizarrely high SHBG that cannot be brought down by any normal means. Everybody else is just blasting a low dose cycle and should quit kidding themselves, because higher dose = higher long term risk. Someone with actual clinically low T will have better health from reasonable TRT, and an increased life span to go with improved quality of life. People running a long term blast are throwing the positives out the window for the sake of very minor short term gains.

The creams and gels are "Easier", but also will transfer via the laundry to other household members to some degree.

Taking Anavar or Deca with the T is not really TRT. And taking low dose Deca for your joints is not a real solution. And yes, you can get those things prescribed as an adjunct to your TRT from certain concierge clinics.

[5hout]

Taking Anavar or Deca with the T is not really TRT. And taking low dose Deca for your joints is not a real solution. And yes, you can get those things prescribed as an adjunct to your TRT from certain concierge clinics.

I've read about people doing this, and always prayed they were joking when they called it TRT and knew it was just doctor approved cycle. I really hope no one is out their running Deca/Test and thinking "I need to do this for my health".

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Reddit was a mistake.

Also, Alan's video hits the nail on the head as usual: you can get leaner and/or muscular in your 30s 40s and 50s, the only thing you need is effort and consistency in the gym and in the kitchen. It's also a good thing that he is calling out the influcencers / pseudo-doctors who are shamelessly pushing this narrative that you can't get more muscular and stronger naturally.

[broseph]

I'm on clomiphene after consecutive test levels of <200 ng/dl.

200 ng/dl is 200 ng/dl regardless of what you (or a particular institution or journal) considers normal.


For about 1 year I just figured I was depressed and getting old or possibly even having early onset dementia. I had very low motivation, felt depressed but not sad, zero interest (and decreased ability) in sex, and had difficulty problem solving and having normal conversations (like my brain was lagging). I didn't even suspect it was low T until I was going through my log and realized I had gone backwards in the gym despite a year of consistency.

For years I'd eaten a healthy diet (lots of plants, lean meats, whole grains, occasional junk). My bodyfat was low enough for some abs but not crazy low. No porn. Attractive wife I liked and loved. At least 8 hours of sleep most nights. Lifting plus cardio. Very little alcohol. No drugs.


I see a urologist (because I know one) for this. He has slowly decreased my clomiphene dosage, and my testosterone levels also drop. I suspect I will eventually need to be on actual test. For a month or two I was cruising at 800 ng/dl and felt like superman. Nowadays I'm around 400 and feel fairly normal, but not as good as when I was in my twenties. My constituents of feeling good are having motivation, energy, libido, and mental acuity. The mental acuity was huge for me.


*I honestly can't tell if this thread is meant to dump on 20 year old neck bearded reddit incels who are using steroids under the guise of TRT, or if people are looking for actual information. But doing everything right and still feeling like shit is a real thing and can (and should) be treated.

Edit: Forgot to mention I have sleep apnea, but it's been treated for years and I'm extremely compliant with CPAP.