TRT MEGA THREAD

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

@broseph since it was my initial remark that spawned the topic allow me to clarify: if you have an actual hormonal problem and your endocrinologist diagnoses such a problem, then you should receive a hormonal treatment, and there is no shame in doing so.

My criticism was directed to the people who try to convince people who do not have actual hormonal problems to mess with this stuff.

[Hardartery]

I'm on clomiphene after consecutive test levels of <200 ng/dl.

200 ng/dl is 200 ng/dl regardless of what you (or a particular institution or journal) considers normal.


For about 1 year I just figured I was depressed and getting old or possibly even having early onset dementia. I had very low motivation, felt depressed but not sad, zero interest (and decreased ability) in sex, and had difficulty problem solving and having normal conversations (like my brain was lagging). I didn't even suspect it was low T until I was going through my log and realized I had gone backwards in the gym despite a year of consistency.

For years I'd eaten a healthy diet (lots of plants, lean meats, whole grains, occasional junk). My bodyfat was low enough for some abs but not crazy low. No porn. Attractive wife I liked and loved. At least 8 hours of sleep most nights. Lifting plus cardio. Very little alcohol. No drugs.


I see a urologist (because I know one) for this. He has slowly decreased my clomiphene dosage, and my testosterone levels also drop. I suspect I will eventually need to be on actual test. For a month or two I was cruising at 800 ng/dl and felt like superman. Nowadays I'm around 400 and feel fairly normal, but not as good as when I was in my twenties. My constituents of feeling good are having motivation, energy, libido, and mental acuity. The mental acuity was huge for me.


*I honestly can't tell if this thread is meant to dump on 20 year old neck bearded reddit incels who are using steroids under the guise of TRT, or if people are looking for actual information. But doing everything right and still feeling like shit is a real thing and can (and should) be treated.

Edit: Forgot to mention I have sleep apnea, but it's been treated for years and I'm extremely compliant with CPAP.

I had a lot of the same things that you mention. I was doing everything I could, including the CPAP. My issue may be tied to the Parathyroid Hyperplasia that I had to have surgery for, but it didn't go away after surgery. I still don't lift what I used to, but at least I feel fine most of the time and have enough ambition to do something. The neckbeards are going to cause problems for those with actual legitimate need, although I heard a thing that maybe all of this transgender stuff may result in loosening up the restrictions on the hormones. It's still a bad idea for the so-called body hackers to screw with it just for "Optimization" or some such nonsense.

[hector]

I'm on clomiphene after consecutive test levels of <200 ng/dl.

200 ng/dl is 200 ng/dl regardless of what you (or a particular institution or journal) considers normal.


For about 1 year I just figured I was depressed and getting old or possibly even having early onset dementia. I had very low motivation, felt depressed but not sad, zero interest (and decreased ability) in sex, and had difficulty problem solving and having normal conversations (like my brain was lagging). I didn't even suspect it was low T until I was going through my log and realized I had gone backwards in the gym despite a year of consistency.

For years I'd eaten a healthy diet (lots of plants, lean meats, whole grains, occasional junk). My bodyfat was low enough for some abs but not crazy low. No porn. Attractive wife I liked and loved. At least 8 hours of sleep most nights. Lifting plus cardio. Very little alcohol. No drugs.


I see a urologist (because I know one) for this. He has slowly decreased my clomiphene dosage, and my testosterone levels also drop. I suspect I will eventually need to be on actual test. For a month or two I was cruising at 800 ng/dl and felt like superman. Nowadays I'm around 400 and feel fairly normal, but not as good as when I was in my twenties. My constituents of feeling good are having motivation, energy, libido, and mental acuity. The mental acuity was huge for me.


*I honestly can't tell if this thread is meant to dump on 20 year old neck bearded reddit incels who are using steroids under the guise of TRT, or if people are looking for actual information. But doing everything right and still feeling like shit is a real thing and can (and should) be treated.

Edit: Forgot to mention I have sleep apnea, but it's been treated for years and I'm extremely compliant with CPAP.

I had a lot of the same things that you mention. I was doing everything I could, including the CPAP. My issue may be tied to the Parathyroid Hyperplasia that I had to have surgery for, but it didn't go away after surgery. I still don't lift what I used to, but at least I feel fine most of the time and have enough ambition to do something. The neckbeards are going to cause problems for those with actual legitimate need, although I heard a thing that maybe all of this transgender stuff may result in loosening up the restrictions on the hormones. It's still a bad idea for the so-called body hackers to screw with it just for "Optimization" or some such nonsense.

In a way, some men simply identify as way more masculine than they presently are, so the steroids would be “gender affirming.”

[Hardartery]

I'm on clomiphene after consecutive test levels of <200 ng/dl.

200 ng/dl is 200 ng/dl regardless of what you (or a particular institution or journal) considers normal.


For about 1 year I just figured I was depressed and getting old or possibly even having early onset dementia. I had very low motivation, felt depressed but not sad, zero interest (and decreased ability) in sex, and had difficulty problem solving and having normal conversations (like my brain was lagging). I didn't even suspect it was low T until I was going through my log and realized I had gone backwards in the gym despite a year of consistency.

For years I'd eaten a healthy diet (lots of plants, lean meats, whole grains, occasional junk). My bodyfat was low enough for some abs but not crazy low. No porn. Attractive wife I liked and loved. At least 8 hours of sleep most nights. Lifting plus cardio. Very little alcohol. No drugs.


I see a urologist (because I know one) for this. He has slowly decreased my clomiphene dosage, and my testosterone levels also drop. I suspect I will eventually need to be on actual test. For a month or two I was cruising at 800 ng/dl and felt like superman. Nowadays I'm around 400 and feel fairly normal, but not as good as when I was in my twenties. My constituents of feeling good are having motivation, energy, libido, and mental acuity. The mental acuity was huge for me.


*I honestly can't tell if this thread is meant to dump on 20 year old neck bearded reddit incels who are using steroids under the guise of TRT, or if people are looking for actual information. But doing everything right and still feeling like shit is a real thing and can (and should) be treated.

Edit: Forgot to mention I have sleep apnea, but it's been treated for years and I'm extremely compliant with CPAP.

I had a lot of the same things that you mention. I was doing everything I could, including the CPAP. My issue may be tied to the Parathyroid Hyperplasia that I had to have surgery for, but it didn't go away after surgery. I still don't lift what I used to, but at least I feel fine most of the time and have enough ambition to do something. The neckbeards are going to cause problems for those with actual legitimate need, although I heard a thing that maybe all of this transgender stuff may result in loosening up the restrictions on the hormones. It's still a bad idea for the so-called body hackers to screw with it just for "Optimization" or some such nonsense.

In a way, some men simply identify as way more masculine than they presently are, so the steroids would be “gender affirming.”

LOL. I can work with that.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

I identify as a grizzly bear.

[broseph]

In a way, some men simply identify as way more masculine than they presently are, so the steroids would be “gender affirming.”

Unironically, this was the first thing I thought when I first saw jacked FTM transitions.

[mouse]

example:

I can't pick on this dude even a little because I don't know if I could get into that position without injuring myself and if I could, I sure as hell ain't getting back to my feet in any manner that would be described as 'quick'...

[mbasic]

For about 1 year I just figured I was depressed and getting old or possibly even having early onset dementia. I had very low motivation, felt depressed but not sad, zero interest (and decreased ability) in sex, and had difficulty problem solving and having normal conversations (like my brain was lagging). I didn't even suspect it was low T until I was going through my log and realized I had gone backwards in the gym despite a year of consistency.

About the same. I'm going to define my symptoms (similar to what you describe here) as depression/anxiety.

I was always low. I only got t-results as a part of an annual blood draw.

I blew it off for years (7-8?).... Because science-based-internet-fitness-Xperts said T levels were not really THAT important....and the negative stigma that TRT is nothing more than meatheads wanting to try Steroids-Lite. Prior to this, I have commented on this forum and at Egypt about my disdain for TRT, and how its over Rx'd (which is probably still very true).

I was 'OK' with my gym progress considering my age (50), and my known genetics and history (I wasn't very responsive to lifting even in high school).

Dick worked great. Sex drive was ok (again, for a 50).
I eat pretty healthy, absolutely no junk. I Workout. Etc.


My bodyfat is/was a little high, but for a 50 y.o. I'm probably in the top 2% health-wise for american 50 y.o. male (not saying much really).

Finally my depression got so bad, and after trying some therapy and Rx's for that .... none of that worked.
Was getting to the wife. I had no reason to be depressed. My life is great really. Wife is awesome. Business is good. I have everything I want really. I read more about test and depression, from a depression treatment resource (not TRT material). So I got tested again. 200 on the nose.

Took the plunge.... had to eat a crow sandwich of sorts.

It definitely helps with the depression issues. It took a while....

Some fucked up side effects (no-one tells you are possible beforehand ) that I'm not too happy about ....
Fucking E2 all over the place. Sudden intermittent ED episodes and shit (this sucks, as my junk was FINE before)
but, it helps with the depression to the point the sides are quite tolerable.
Clinic is still dialing stuff in ... adjust dosages, etc Its pretty obvs whats happening and fixable.
My levels around around ~700. I'm doing 2x/weekly injections, so they might be a little higher on certain days.

Hasn't really helped in the gym at all.....just maybe barely, like could be dismissed noise/placebo level stuff.
If anything .... I think the thought of going on HRT for the rest of my life inspired me to do better with working out, eating, and other lifestyle hacks. It made me be more responsible and try harder. The thinking is/was if you are going thru all the trouble to do TRT, and possible negative side effects it (some really bad, possibly) .... well, you goddamn better do everything and anything to take FULL advantage of the added-testosterone to the Nth degree.

I still get my injections at the clinic. I hate going in there. I'm guessing this is some kind of defensive subconscious-introspective-guilt-death-spiral because I'm "doing test"....like "they" are. About 3/6 guys that come in are real meathead-looking ...and for some reason this really irks me.
I swear to god, half the vehicles in the parking lot are newer lifted 4x4 trucks. 2/6 are really obese (I hope they tried years of dieting and exercise first). Maybe 1/6 look like a normal dude.

*sigh*

[Hardartery]

For about 1 year I just figured I was depressed and getting old or possibly even having early onset dementia. I had very low motivation, felt depressed but not sad, zero interest (and decreased ability) in sex, and had difficulty problem solving and having normal conversations (like my brain was lagging). I didn't even suspect it was low T until I was going through my log and realized I had gone backwards in the gym despite a year of consistency.

About the same. I'm going to define my symptoms (similar to what you describe here) as depression/anxiety.

I was always low. I only got t-results as a part of an annual blood draw.

I blew it off for years (7-8?).... Because science-based-internet-fitness-Xperts said T levels were not really THAT important....and the negative stigma that TRT is nothing more than meatheads wanting to try Steroids-Lite. Prior to this, I have commented on this forum and at Egypt about my disdain for TRT, and how its over Rx'd (which is probably still very true).

I was 'OK' with my gym progress considering my age (50), and my known genetics and history (I wasn't very responsive to lifting even in high school).

Dick worked great. Sex drive was ok (again, for a 50).
I eat pretty healthy, absolutely no junk. I Workout. Etc.


My bodyfat is/was a little high, but for a 50 y.o. I'm probably in the top 2% health-wise for american 50 y.o. male (not saying much really).

Finally my depression got so bad, and after trying some therapy and Rx's for that .... none of that worked.
Was getting to the wife. I had no reason to be depressed. My life is great really. Wife is awesome. Business is good. I have everything I want really. I read more about test and depression, from a depression treatment resource (not TRT material). So I got tested again. 200 on the nose.

Took the plunge.... had to eat a crow sandwich of sorts.

It definitely helps with the depression issues. It took a while....

Some fucked up side effects (no-one tells you are possible beforehand ) that I'm not too happy about ....
Fucking E2 all over the place. Sudden intermittent ED episodes and shit (this sucks, as my junk was FINE before)
but, it helps with the depression to the point the sides are quite tolerable.
Clinic is still dialing stuff in ... adjust dosages, etc Its pretty obvs whats happening and fixable.
My levels around around ~700. I'm doing 2x/weekly injections, so they might be a little higher on certain days.

Hasn't really helped in the gym at all.....just maybe barely, like could be dismissed noise/placebo level stuff.
If anything .... I think the thought of going on HRT for the rest of my life inspired me to do better with working out, eating, and other lifestyle hacks. It made me be more responsible and try harder. The thinking is/was if you are going thru all the trouble to do TRT, and possible negative side effects it (some really bad, possibly) .... well, you goddamn better do everything and anything to take FULL advantage of the added-testosterone to the Nth degree.

I still get my injections at the clinic. I hate going in there. I'm guessing this is some kind of defensive subconscious-introspective-guilt-death-spiral because I'm "doing test"....like "they" are. About 3/6 guys that come in are real meathead-looking ...and for some reason this really irks me.
I swear to god, half the vehicles in the parking lot are newer lifted 4x4 trucks. 2/6 are really obese (I hope they tried years of dieting and exercise first). Maybe 1/6 look like a normal dude.

*sigh*

My E2 was all over the place initially. It calmed down after a while. I won't trust clinics at all, they like to use aromatase inhibitors, which frankly just make things more complicated and all over the place. Crashed E2 is way worse than high E2 or low test. It just takes a while for the body to adjust. And FWIW, I saw zero difference from different doses. I've been everywhere from 120mg a week to 200mg a week, didn't make a bit of difference to lifting or libido. I'm sure kicking it up to 500mg would get the party started if that's what I was chasing, but it isn't. It does seem to improve over time though, at least for me.

[hector]

My coworker has a regular t score. Not sure exact number. Said he wants to get TRT, start lifting, get jacked.
Been on TRT for months now, t is now > 1,000, still hasn’t started lifting.

Any idea what will happen? Good, bad, or other?

[Hardartery]

My coworker has a regular t score. Not sure exact number. Said he wants to get TRT, start lifting, get jacked.
Been on TRT for months now, t is now > 1,000, still hasn’t started lifting.

Any idea what will happen? Good, bad, or other?

He will continue to spend the money and look exactly the same. And most likely feel basically the same except for some possible placebo effect. The main risk is that he might never recover original function if he quits, which is only a problem if you had regular function and didn't need TRT to begin with.

[dw]

Meh who needs regular sized gonads.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

@mbasic something that I don't understand is doctors prescribing TRT to patients that are very overweight. Based on my very shallow understanding of the subject, those people are already at an elevated risk for cardiovascular disease, and the test can possibly increase risk. What is the logic here ?

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

My coworker has a regular t score. Not sure exact number. Said he wants to get TRT, start lifting, get jacked.
Been on TRT for months now, t is now > 1,000, still hasn’t started lifting.

Any idea what will happen? Good, bad, or other?

Is this even legal for a doctor to prescribe test to somebody whose levels are within the normal range (I'm not familiar with the US health system, I'm assuming this is in the US) ?

Also, if the guy wanted to get jacked, why didn't he start lifting in the first place ? I mean it's not like its difficult to find a gym and go there 2-3 times a week.

[mbasic]

My coworker has a regular t score. Not sure exact number. Said he wants to get TRT, start lifting, get jacked.
Been on TRT for months now, t is now > 1,000, still hasn’t started lifting.

Any idea what will happen? Good, bad, or other?

Is this even legal for a doctor to prescribe test to somebody whose levels are within the normal range (I'm not familiar with the US health system, I'm assuming this is in the US) ?

Also, if the guy wanted to get jacked, why didn't he start lifting in the first place ? I mean it's not like its difficult to find a gym and go there 2-3 times a week.

You can just go to a 'health optimization clinic', get tested, report (lie) about symptoms, and pay for TRT out of pocket and circumvent insurance.
The clinic screen patents a bit from what I understand, for instance, I marked: "No- not a diabetic". But that made me laugh a bit when I saw that, seeing a lot of other obese people in there. (But you can't judge, maybe these are the people you have 'tried everything' and are still fat )

As much as @Hardartery hates the "Clinics", some of them are way better than your doctor(GP), urologist, and even a endo Rx'ing TRT. But going through your doctor and insurance you will have to have lower T levels, and perhaps more symptoms. Things like being overly obese come into play and are left up to the doctor and/or what the insurance will authorize.

I am paying cash money. Its expensive. The repeated bloodwork is a lot of the expense, or so I'm told, compared to the actual compounds you are injecting (most of them). From what I've heard, the doctor-insurance route, they are more stingy and lazy with the bloodwork. Bloodwork is not only for optimizing the dose to feel good/physical results, but more importantly shit like your blood "thickening", prostate indicators, lipids, etc.

My clinic is better (I think) at adjusting dosages/protocols etc. I'd imagine you would have to keep on getting appointments with your doctor to adjust things, which is not easy, especially in other countries. My Clinic has a database of 700 males, and tracks everything .... "everyone is different", but they can see general trends. Your doctor is only dealing with a few clients.

All that said, its probably way overprescribed/overused.

[mbasic]

@mbasic something that I don't understand is doctors prescribing TRT to patients that are very overweight. Based on my very shallow understanding of the subject, those people are already at an elevated risk for cardiovascular disease, and the test can possibly increase risk. What is the logic here ?

I'm not sure on the heart stuff; that research goes back and forth.....but I'm with you, I'd be leery.
I guess the hope is the TRT will help the patient lean out, and get to a healthy bodyweight.

Its funny, becasue from what I've read, if you are really fat, your estrogen is probably already high to begin with .... and the more T you inject, all of your 'extra' adipose tissue will convert that extra T to estrogen ASAP. So then your estrogen is even higher. Which creates another problems for the patient (and the prescribing doctor/clinic).

[hector]

My coworker has a regular t score. Not sure exact number. Said he wants to get TRT, start lifting, get jacked.
Been on TRT for months now, t is now > 1,000, still hasn’t started lifting.

Any idea what will happen? Good, bad, or other?

Is this even legal for a doctor to prescribe test to somebody whose levels are within the normal range (I'm not familiar with the US health system, I'm assuming this is in the US) ?

Also, if the guy wanted to get jacked, why didn't he start lifting in the first place ? I mean it's not like its difficult to find a gym and go there 2-3 times a week.

He’s still on TRT.
Doctor is still prescribing.
It seems to be legal enough.

[Hardartery]

My coworker has a regular t score. Not sure exact number. Said he wants to get TRT, start lifting, get jacked.
Been on TRT for months now, t is now > 1,000, still hasn’t started lifting.

Any idea what will happen? Good, bad, or other?

Is this even legal for a doctor to prescribe test to somebody whose levels are within the normal range (I'm not familiar with the US health system, I'm assuming this is in the US) ?

Also, if the guy wanted to get jacked, why didn't he start lifting in the first place ? I mean it's not like its difficult to find a gym and go there 2-3 times a week.

You can just go to a 'health optimization clinic', get tested, report (lie) about symptoms, and pay for TRT out of pocket and circumvent insurance.
The clinic screen patents a bit from what I understand, for instance, I marked: "No- not a diabetic". But that made me laugh a bit when I saw that, seeing a lot of other obese people in there. (But you can't judge, maybe these are the people you have 'tried everything' and are still fat )

As much as @Hardartery hates the "Clinics", some of them are way better than your doctor(GP), urologist, and even a endo Rx'ing TRT. But going through your doctor and insurance you will have to have lower T levels, and perhaps more symptoms. Things like being overly obese come into play and are left up to the doctor and/or what the insurance will authorize.

I am paying cash money. Its expensive. The repeated bloodwork is a lot of the expense, or so I'm told, compared to the actual compounds you are injecting (most of them). From what I've heard, the doctor-insurance route, they are more stingy and lazy with the bloodwork. Bloodwork is not only for optimizing the dose to feel good/physical results, but more importantly shit like your blood "thickening", prostate indicators, lipids, etc.

My clinic is better (I think) at adjusting dosages/protocols etc. I'd imagine you would have to keep on getting appointments with your doctor to adjust things, which is not easy, especially in other countries. My Clinic has a database of 700 males, and tracks everything .... "everyone is different", but they can see general trends. Your doctor is only dealing with a few clients.

All that said, its probably way overprescribed/overused.

I do agree that some of the clinics are great and much better than a GP/PCP or an average endo. Some of them really are top notch, it's the other ones that are the problem. They mills are just taking advantage of the naive/uneducated, and this can have real long term consequences for these people. Most people simply do not have the background or the time to research it and think that should be able to trust medical professionals, and they really cannot.

[Hardartery]

@mbasic something that I don't understand is doctors prescribing TRT to patients that are very overweight. Based on my very shallow understanding of the subject, those people are already at an elevated risk for cardiovascular disease, and the test can possibly increase risk. What is the logic here ?

From what I have read, most of the idea that test can increase cardiovascular risk is mostly based on a single study using only men of Japanese ancestry and with advanced age. No control groups, and a very narrow scope of men who all had similar underlying health issues plus being old. Other studies have not backed that up.

The thing about hormones in men is that we do not produce estrogen, we make it from testosterone via an enzyme called aromatase. We need the estrogen, it is shown to be very heart and joint protective even though it brings some bloat with it. So, if you have low test it has been shown to be a greater risk for cardiovascular issues than any possible negatives from regular or high T levels due to the lack of other hormones that are downchain from testosterone. When your T levels drop you tend to gain fat, especially around the hips and belly, and it is compounded by the natural decline of GH with age. So, sometimes these guys gained the weight in part because of the low T. So, in their defense, you wouldn't require a diabetic to lose weight before getting treatment for their diabetes so why should we treat hormone issue differently than that?

It is true that the body stores excess aromatase enzyme in fat tissues, so having more fat provides more space to store the enzyme, and additionally your body is trying to make what it needs from the diminishing levels of testosterone so it may actually increase production and availability of the enzyme. Add to that that your bodily is also likely to be increasing your level of SHBG as a defense mechanism (This is Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, it's a storage facility within the blood for things like testosterone) to insure that it has what it needs for basic functions. This all leads to low to non-existent free Test, which dampens catecholamine production (Yes, that comes from breakdown of test on the brain among other things) and this is at least part of the whole depression side of low T. It is complicated and I am just scratching the surface with what I typed here.

So, Bros with normal T levels and production are really setting themselves up for pain screwing around with TRT, especially if they don't do any research. As a lifting related aside, part of the reason all of the Strongman guys tend to have facial hair is the bloat. BBers use things like anastrozole or tamoxifen to try and control E2 levels and eliminate bloat (In addition to certain PED combinations that help with that) but SM guys usually do not take any measures to control it because low E2 is a fast track to a tear and constant joint pain and no one is being judged on physique in SM.

[Philbert]

My coworker has a regular t score. Not sure exact number. Said he wants to get TRT, start lifting, get jacked.
Been on TRT for months now, t is now > 1,000, still hasn’t started lifting.

Any idea what will happen? Good, bad, or other?

Is this even legal for a doctor to prescribe test to somebody whose levels are within the normal range (I'm not familiar with the US health system, I'm assuming this is in the US) ?

Also, if the guy wanted to get jacked, why didn't he start lifting in the first place ? I mean it's not like its difficult to find a gym and go there 2-3 times a week.

IN the US, mostly physicians can prescribe any drug they want for any condition they claim it is appropriate for without running afoul of the law, unless someone complains or gets injured. It is technically illegal for the physician to prescribe controlled substances without medical necessity, but proving the absence of medical necessity is a high bar. For narcotics, a prosecutor is likely to be willing to put in the effort, for anabolics not so likely, unless the recipient is a high profile athlete.