Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#41

Post by MarkKO » Wed Apr 05, 2023 1:48 pm

Hardartery wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 9:56 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 12:32 am @xuerebx @Hardartery I think my post was worded poorly. What I meant by "does not even lift" was that he was never successful in lifting weights. He was never big or strong (as far as I know). I hope this does not come off as being mean spirited, but once again my belief is that getting big or getting strong is a journey, and in order to guide people in their journey you need to have taken yourself through that journey.

It is not a theoretical pursuit, it is something very practical, and without the first hand, practical experience of success, you can't guide others to success and whatever you have to contribute is not interesting.

You want to write a bodybuilding program ? Sure, but step on stage first. You want to write a bulking program to get bigger ? No problem, but get big first. You want to write a strength program ? Put up some big weights and then we'll talk about it.

Being a mediocre lifter is fine (I am very mediocre at lifting), lifting is a hobby, but if you are mediocre you should not be a coach, you can just be a lifter. And you should certainly not be getting paid for it. This is one of the reasons why the signal to noise ratio is atrocious in fitness.
You voice a common opinion, but it is invalidated by reality. There are virtually no top level coaches of top level athletes in the realm of lifting that even look like they ever lifted. The coach of Novikov and Wide Pavlo from Ukraine is a middle aged dad-bod, he has a bit of a gut and no signs of muscle at all. The guys coaching the top IFBB guys, for the most part, don't look like anything (Especially suspicious given that I believe most of them do actually lift). I can think of very few coaches that had any level of success on their own merits that currently coach anyone of note.
As to coaching success at all levels, that also is not realistic. Most coaches are somewhat niche, and Dave Tate is an example of that. He coaches top level lifters only, and rather openly says that. Coaching Joe Dadbod or Jane Soccermom is an entirely different universe than coaching Novikov or Haack or Bumstead. It is the rare person that can coach all levels or cross disciplines effectively. Louie Simmons was a great PL coach and had some success (Somewhat more quietly) with Olympic throwers and football players. His ideas regarding Weightlifting don't really hold much water though, in spite of the fact that his entire system is lifted directly from Soviet Weightlifting programs plus box squats (From the original Westside Gym guys).
Even a mediocre coach can meet with you one on one and improve you in some way. The thing that makes a difference is that the coach has the ability to analyze data and adapt to make application. The guy that was personally successful usually sucks at that, he just did what he did and it worked because genetics and/or lucky drug selection. You can tell in 5 minutes of one on one conversation if said coach actually is that guy the analyzes and interprets things in a useful way, and that conversation is unrelated to his lifting history or his coaching history. Some guys get fame when in reality all they did was get lucky with clients.
This is something I think too.

To me, it comes down to the fact that unless you fail quite a lot you don't learn much. The super successful gifted lifter misses out a ton there. The best example I've seen in person is Eric Lilliebridge. He is an awful, awful coach. Really nice guy, one of the most talented lifters around but a horribly bad coach.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#42

Post by MarkKO » Wed Apr 05, 2023 1:51 pm

janoycresva wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 6:37 am
MarkKO wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 1:08 am Taking someone whose first total was 1000 lbs and in five or even seven or so years getting them to a 1500 lbs total? That's pretty huge because that person is not gifted at powerlifting.
i agree with your premise generally, but i doubt there is any coach in the world that can take someone who isn't at least somewhat gifted for strength to a 1500lb total
Eh, a 1500 lbs total isn't that much. It takes sticking around more than anything else. You won't see someone who's gotten the short end of the genetic stick get it, but the average guy? It's within range provided he's prepared to work for a while.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#43

Post by janoycresva » Wed Apr 05, 2023 2:42 pm

MarkKO wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 1:51 pm
janoycresva wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 6:37 am
MarkKO wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 1:08 am Taking someone whose first total was 1000 lbs and in five or even seven or so years getting them to a 1500 lbs total? That's pretty huge because that person is not gifted at powerlifting.
i agree with your premise generally, but i doubt there is any coach in the world that can take someone who isn't at least somewhat gifted for strength to a 1500lb total
Eh, a 1500 lbs total isn't that much. It takes sticking around more than anything else. You won't see someone who's gotten the short end of the genetic stick get it, but the average guy? It's within range provided he's prepared to work for a while.
i think your idea of average is skewed by hanging around online lifting communities, which are going to self select for above average responders (because truly dogshit responders mostly quit lifting and won’t end up here)

my best gym total is like mid 1300s after over a decade of lifting, and while i’m very unsuited to powerlifting from an anthropometry standpoint i’m also big and pretty jacked and my response to training was noticeably better than most of my friends who i got into lifting

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#44

Post by OrderInChaos » Thu Apr 06, 2023 12:23 am

Robster wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:37 pm
What do u think about Geoff Schofields Ravage routine?
What do you think of 6-day routines and the bro split?

I think it's a lot of work condensed into those days and could leave you beat up (not actually injured, just low energy)

I like the Baker idea of progression of splits over time or through the year. Going from an LP to Ravage would be a terrible idea. You'd probably be fine, but maybe better served with an intermediate stop at "Upper Lower". I really liked the "PHAT" 5-day split for hypertrophy work, because I gelled well with Upper Lower but PHAT lets you get more junk bro volume in, especially on upper stuff, and more gym days with some good days off in between. Hard to fuck up (as long as you start conservative with volume and are generally wise with new exercises).

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#45

Post by MarkKO » Thu Apr 06, 2023 2:21 am

janoycresva wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 2:42 pm
MarkKO wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 1:51 pm
janoycresva wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 6:37 am
MarkKO wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 1:08 am Taking someone whose first total was 1000 lbs and in five or even seven or so years getting them to a 1500 lbs total? That's pretty huge because that person is not gifted at powerlifting.
i agree with your premise generally, but i doubt there is any coach in the world that can take someone who isn't at least somewhat gifted for strength to a 1500lb total
Eh, a 1500 lbs total isn't that much. It takes sticking around more than anything else. You won't see someone who's gotten the short end of the genetic stick get it, but the average guy? It's within range provided he's prepared to work for a while.
i think your idea of average is skewed by hanging around online lifting communities, which are going to self select for above average responders (because truly dogshit responders mostly quit lifting and won’t end up here)

my best gym total is like mid 1300s after over a decade of lifting, and while i’m very unsuited to powerlifting from an anthropometry standpoint i’m also big and pretty jacked and my response to training was noticeably better than most of my friends who i got into lifting
Fair point I guess?

I'm just going by what I've seen IRL really. Plenty of 1500 totals by average guys who just keep at it.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#46

Post by 51M0N » Thu Apr 06, 2023 2:37 am

Strong survivorship bias there. The guys who just keep at it are the ones who were able to keep going at it. Injuries would probably knock out a lot of people.

I know that for me that is the case, my ability to push my total is blocked by my ability to not get injured (or rather deal with the injuries I already have).

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#47

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:33 am

It's always the problem when people try to reason based on "averages" is that implicitly or explicitly people are averaging over a well chosen subset of lifters. If you look at averages over the whole set of people who lift weights, a 1500 lbs is beyond exceptional. A good proportion of lifters probably can't even squat 2 plates to depth. That's the funny thing about lifting: you can be way way above average, and still suck, because the average person is extremely mediocre (l am much stronger than a commercial gym goer, at least based on the people I see there, but objectively i'm a terrible lifter). Then the question becomes, what is the set:
- the set of all lifters ?
- the set of all lifters who train consistantly ?
- the set of all powerlifters ?
- the set of all powerlifters with X years of training experience ?
- the set of all powerlifters with X years of training experience competitive at the national level ?
All elements of the last set are probably 10 standard deviations above an average element from the first set. That applies to lifting and that applies to every other hobby or occupation, like if you play chess you can be both a terrible player, and be in the 99% percentile of players, because the average chess player hangs his queen at least once per game.

And it becomes even worse when trying to infer "genetic potential" from group membership, because the ones who are are naturally terrible at something realize it quickly and cut their losses by quitting.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#48

Post by MarkKO » Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:52 am

51M0N wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 2:37 am Strong survivorship bias there. The guys who just keep at it are the ones who were able to keep going at it. Injuries would probably knock out a lot of people.

I know that for me that is the case, my ability to push my total is blocked by my ability to not get injured (or rather deal with the injuries I already have).
I hadn't thought of it that way.

That being said, most of the guys who keep at it have done so with injuries along the way and I'm no exception to that. Nothing has put me in hospital or out of work though.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#49

Post by MarkKO » Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:57 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:33 am It's always the problem when people try to reason based on "averages" is that implicitly or explicitly people are averaging over a well chosen subset of lifters. If you look at averages over the whole set of people who lift weights, a 1500 lbs is beyond exceptional. A good proportion of lifters probably can't even squat 2 plates to depth. That's the funny thing about lifting: you can be way way above average, and still suck, because the average person is extremely mediocre (l am much stronger than a commercial gym goer, at least based on the people I see there, but objectively i'm a terrible lifter). Then the question becomes, what is the set:
- the set of all lifters ?
- the set of all lifters who train consistantly ?
- the set of all powerlifters ?

- the set of all powerlifters with X years of training experience ?
- the set of all powerlifters with X years of training experience competitive at the national level ?
All elements of the last set are probably 10 standard deviations above an average element from the first set. That applies to lifting and that applies to every other hobby or occupation, like if you play chess you can be both a terrible player, and be in the 99% percentile of players, because the average chess player hangs his queen at least once per game.

And it becomes even worse when trying to infer "genetic potential" from group membership, because the ones who are are naturally terrible at something realize it quickly and cut their losses by quitting.
That's a very good digest of this matter.

I bolded the two sets I'm thinking of when I say most people can achieve a 1500 total. It's just based on me generally not being the strongest lifter wherever I'm training, so I figure that can't be such a rare occurrence.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#50

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:14 am

MarkKO wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:57 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:33 am It's always the problem when people try to reason based on "averages" is that implicitly or explicitly people are averaging over a well chosen subset of lifters. If you look at averages over the whole set of people who lift weights, a 1500 lbs is beyond exceptional. A good proportion of lifters probably can't even squat 2 plates to depth. That's the funny thing about lifting: you can be way way above average, and still suck, because the average person is extremely mediocre (l am much stronger than a commercial gym goer, at least based on the people I see there, but objectively i'm a terrible lifter). Then the question becomes, what is the set:
- the set of all lifters ?
- the set of all lifters who train consistantly ?
- the set of all powerlifters ?

- the set of all powerlifters with X years of training experience ?
- the set of all powerlifters with X years of training experience competitive at the national level ?
All elements of the last set are probably 10 standard deviations above an average element from the first set. That applies to lifting and that applies to every other hobby or occupation, like if you play chess you can be both a terrible player, and be in the 99% percentile of players, because the average chess player hangs his queen at least once per game.

And it becomes even worse when trying to infer "genetic potential" from group membership, because the ones who are are naturally terrible at something realize it quickly and cut their losses by quitting.
That's a very good digest of this matter.

I bolded the two sets I'm thinking of when I say most people can achieve a 1500 total. It's just based on me generally not being the strongest lifter wherever I'm training, so I figure that can't be such a rare occurrence.
I did a little experiment with openpowerlifitng, if you look at

https://www.openpowerlifting.org/rankin ... n/by-total

The median total for men in the 90+ class is 512 kgs which is about 1150 lbs. In this class the men who total 680 kgs which is about 1500 lbs represent roughly the 90% percentile, which is far from average (probably 2 standard deviations above average).

Now of course this is normal, because our perspective of what is "normal" is usually completely skewed by the people we hang out with.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#51

Post by MarkKO » Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:37 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:14 am
MarkKO wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:57 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:33 am It's always the problem when people try to reason based on "averages" is that implicitly or explicitly people are averaging over a well chosen subset of lifters. If you look at averages over the whole set of people who lift weights, a 1500 lbs is beyond exceptional. A good proportion of lifters probably can't even squat 2 plates to depth. That's the funny thing about lifting: you can be way way above average, and still suck, because the average person is extremely mediocre (l am much stronger than a commercial gym goer, at least based on the people I see there, but objectively i'm a terrible lifter). Then the question becomes, what is the set:
- the set of all lifters ?
- the set of all lifters who train consistantly ?
- the set of all powerlifters ?

- the set of all powerlifters with X years of training experience ?
- the set of all powerlifters with X years of training experience competitive at the national level ?
All elements of the last set are probably 10 standard deviations above an average element from the first set. That applies to lifting and that applies to every other hobby or occupation, like if you play chess you can be both a terrible player, and be in the 99% percentile of players, because the average chess player hangs his queen at least once per game.

And it becomes even worse when trying to infer "genetic potential" from group membership, because the ones who are are naturally terrible at something realize it quickly and cut their losses by quitting.
That's a very good digest of this matter.

I bolded the two sets I'm thinking of when I say most people can achieve a 1500 total. It's just based on me generally not being the strongest lifter wherever I'm training, so I figure that can't be such a rare occurrence.
I did a little experiment with openpowerlifitng, if you look at

https://www.openpowerlifting.org/rankin ... n/by-total

The median total for men in the 90+ class is 512 kgs which is about 1150 lbs. In this class the men who total 680 kgs which is about 1500 lbs represent roughly the 90% percentile, which is far from average (probably 2 standard deviations above average).

Now of course this is normal, because our perspective of what is "normal" is usually completely skewed by the people we hang out with.
You hit the nail on the head.

I think the other issue with some statements I make is that I don't consider myself anything other than average outside of perhaps my stubbornness and maybe consistency. So I automatically think pretty much anyone of similar height and age (I'm 38 and around 175 cm) can at least achieve what I have if they follow similar steps.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#52

Post by xuerebx » Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:57 am

I think genetics plays the largest role in all of this. I've been working out for 2.5 years now 4x a week, the only sessions I've missed where when I had COVID and 10 days on holiday in 2021. I track my food EVERY DAY, never missed a day as far as I can tell during this time. Hell I also managed to work out the day my daughter was born (granted it was a terrible garage sessions but anyway) but I still don't have too much to show for it. I improve but incredibly slowly. My point is just being consistent (and I think I push relatively hard and close to failure most of the time) is not enough. I don't give up because I just compare with where I started and I don't want to go back to where I was. Also I checked the powerlifting rankings in Malta (my country) and they're pretty low even for the all-time country records, which goes to show how a smaller genetic pool (of c. 500k people) matters a lot!

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#53

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:12 am

xuerebx wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:57 am I think genetics plays the largest role in all of this. I've been working out for 2.5 years now 4x a week, the only sessions I've missed where when I had COVID and 10 days on holiday in 2021. I track my food EVERY DAY, never missed a day as far as I can tell during this time. Hell I also managed to work out the day my daughter was born (granted it was a terrible garage sessions but anyway) but I still don't have too much to show for it. I improve but incredibly slowly. My point is just being consistent (and I think I push relatively hard and close to failure most of the time) is not enough. I don't give up because I just compare with where I started and I don't want to go back to where I was. Also I checked the powerlifting rankings in Malta (my country) and they're pretty low even for the all-time country records, which goes to show how a smaller genetic pool (of c. 500k people) matters a lot!
I'm not sure that 2.5 years is enough to have a good estimate of your "genetics" (I'm assuming you mean the maximal level of performance you could get to providing that you're doing everything perfectly) I think 10-20 years would be a more appropriate time scale.

Also I think that people under estimate how long it takes to actually figure out what type of training works for you, because before you have this figured out, whatever you are observing is not a reflexion of your genetics in the first place. One of the forum members (was it Hanley ?) mentioned that some lifters will be doomed to be "intermediate forever" simply because they don't know how to program properly (mostly manage fatigue), and I believe this to be true.

I've been training for 5+ years and I'm just starting to figure out what type of training actually works for me.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#54

Post by DCR » Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:30 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:14 am
MarkKO wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:57 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:33 am It's always the problem when people try to reason based on "averages" is that implicitly or explicitly people are averaging over a well chosen subset of lifters. If you look at averages over the whole set of people who lift weights, a 1500 lbs is beyond exceptional. A good proportion of lifters probably can't even squat 2 plates to depth. That's the funny thing about lifting: you can be way way above average, and still suck, because the average person is extremely mediocre (l am much stronger than a commercial gym goer, at least based on the people I see there, but objectively i'm a terrible lifter). Then the question becomes, what is the set:
- the set of all lifters ?
- the set of all lifters who train consistantly ?
- the set of all powerlifters ?

- the set of all powerlifters with X years of training experience ?
- the set of all powerlifters with X years of training experience competitive at the national level ?
All elements of the last set are probably 10 standard deviations above an average element from the first set. That applies to lifting and that applies to every other hobby or occupation, like if you play chess you can be both a terrible player, and be in the 99% percentile of players, because the average chess player hangs his queen at least once per game.

And it becomes even worse when trying to infer "genetic potential" from group membership, because the ones who are are naturally terrible at something realize it quickly and cut their losses by quitting.
That's a very good digest of this matter.

I bolded the two sets I'm thinking of when I say most people can achieve a 1500 total. It's just based on me generally not being the strongest lifter wherever I'm training, so I figure that can't be such a rare occurrence.
I did a little experiment with openpowerlifitng, if you look at

https://www.openpowerlifting.org/rankin ... n/by-total

The median total for men in the 90+ class is 512 kgs which is about 1150 lbs. In this class the men who total 680 kgs which is about 1500 lbs represent roughly the 90% percentile, which is far from average (probably 2 standard deviations above average).

Now of course this is normal, because our perspective of what is "normal" is usually completely skewed by the people we hang out with.
This tracks. Before I saw it, I had intended to post that I think 1200 is achievable for a determined average dude (somewhere around 300/400/500 B/S/D). A 300 lb increase - around - 400/500/600 - generally isn’t.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#55

Post by JonnyRockets » Thu Apr 06, 2023 12:23 pm

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:12 am some lifters will be doomed to be "intermediate forever"
Hanley wrote: The guys who get good at dosing stress and intuiting fatigue go on to get enormously strong. Guys who can’t are forever-intermediate, cycling through various tendinopathies.
I think of this often. (While nursing various tendinopathies.)

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#56

Post by MarkKO » Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:58 pm

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:12 am
xuerebx wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:57 am I think genetics plays the largest role in all of this. I've been working out for 2.5 years now 4x a week, the only sessions I've missed where when I had COVID and 10 days on holiday in 2021. I track my food EVERY DAY, never missed a day as far as I can tell during this time. Hell I also managed to work out the day my daughter was born (granted it was a terrible garage sessions but anyway) but I still don't have too much to show for it. I improve but incredibly slowly. My point is just being consistent (and I think I push relatively hard and close to failure most of the time) is not enough. I don't give up because I just compare with where I started and I don't want to go back to where I was. Also I checked the powerlifting rankings in Malta (my country) and they're pretty low even for the all-time country records, which goes to show how a smaller genetic pool (of c. 500k people) matters a lot!
I'm not sure that 2.5 years is enough to have a good estimate of your "genetics" (I'm assuming you mean the maximal level of performance you could get to providing that you're doing everything perfectly) I think 10-20 years would be a more appropriate time scale.

Also I think that people under estimate how long it takes to actually figure out what type of training works for you, because before you have this figured out, whatever you are observing is not a reflexion of your genetics in the first place. One of the forum members (was it Hanley ?) mentioned that some lifters will be doomed to be "intermediate forever" simply because they don't know how to program properly (mostly manage fatigue), and I believe this to be true.

I've been training for 5+ years and I'm just starting to figure out what type of training actually works for me.
This is very true for many people. I have found it similar to learning a trade. You can learn the basics very quickly, but it takes several years to learn how to use them to their full effect.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#57

Post by MarkKO » Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm

DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:30 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:14 am
MarkKO wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:57 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:33 am It's always the problem when people try to reason based on "averages" is that implicitly or explicitly people are averaging over a well chosen subset of lifters. If you look at averages over the whole set of people who lift weights, a 1500 lbs is beyond exceptional. A good proportion of lifters probably can't even squat 2 plates to depth. That's the funny thing about lifting: you can be way way above average, and still suck, because the average person is extremely mediocre (l am much stronger than a commercial gym goer, at least based on the people I see there, but objectively i'm a terrible lifter). Then the question becomes, what is the set:
- the set of all lifters ?
- the set of all lifters who train consistantly ?
- the set of all powerlifters ?

- the set of all powerlifters with X years of training experience ?
- the set of all powerlifters with X years of training experience competitive at the national level ?
All elements of the last set are probably 10 standard deviations above an average element from the first set. That applies to lifting and that applies to every other hobby or occupation, like if you play chess you can be both a terrible player, and be in the 99% percentile of players, because the average chess player hangs his queen at least once per game.

And it becomes even worse when trying to infer "genetic potential" from group membership, because the ones who are are naturally terrible at something realize it quickly and cut their losses by quitting.
That's a very good digest of this matter.

I bolded the two sets I'm thinking of when I say most people can achieve a 1500 total. It's just based on me generally not being the strongest lifter wherever I'm training, so I figure that can't be such a rare occurrence.
I did a little experiment with openpowerlifitng, if you look at

https://www.openpowerlifting.org/rankin ... n/by-total

The median total for men in the 90+ class is 512 kgs which is about 1150 lbs. In this class the men who total 680 kgs which is about 1500 lbs represent roughly the 90% percentile, which is far from average (probably 2 standard deviations above average).

Now of course this is normal, because our perspective of what is "normal" is usually completely skewed by the people we hang out with.
This tracks. Before I saw it, I had intended to post that I think 1200 is achievable for a determined average dude (somewhere around 300/400/500 B/S/D). A 300 lb increase - around - 400/500/600 - generally isn’t.
That kind of puts it into context in a way I hadn't thought of before. A bit of a tangent just relating to the numbers is that I've rarely seen people get those totals with those numbers. There's usually one lift that lags, with the other two taking up the slack.

Definitely the person who comes in and has that even kind of distribution between the lifts is going to do well, and that arguably is a decent indication of someone at the least genetically favoured for the sport of powerlifting.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#58

Post by DCR » Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:13 pm

MarkKO wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:30 am This tracks. Before I saw it, I had intended to post that I think 1200 is achievable for a determined average dude (somewhere around 300/400/500 B/S/D). A 300 lb increase - around - 400/500/600 - generally isn’t.
That kind of puts it into context in a way I hadn't thought of before. A bit of a tangent just relating to the numbers is that I've rarely seen people get those totals with those numbers. There's usually one lift that lags, with the other two taking up the slack.

Definitely the person who comes in and has that even kind of distribution between the lifts is going to do well, and that arguably is a decent indication of someone at the least genetically favoured for the sport of powerlifting.
For sure. I would think just having the 400 bench alone would put one in a top tier. I used to lift at a well know powerlifter spot in NY. 700 lb DLs were a dime a dozen (nearly all pulled sumo or modified sumo), and some of those dudes weren’t large. 500 lb squats probably were half as common, if even, but the guys who had them nearly all looked like it. 400 lb benches were far less common even than that, and those dudes all were fucking jacked. Varying levels of leanness, but all jacked up to their ears.

Our community here is comprised of lots of dudes who take this stuff pretty seriously for (mostly) non competitors. Other than @Hanley and @broseph, does anyone have a 400 bench?

MarkKO
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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#59

Post by MarkKO » Thu Apr 06, 2023 9:33 pm

DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:13 pm
MarkKO wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:30 am This tracks. Before I saw it, I had intended to post that I think 1200 is achievable for a determined average dude (somewhere around 300/400/500 B/S/D). A 300 lb increase - around - 400/500/600 - generally isn’t.
That kind of puts it into context in a way I hadn't thought of before. A bit of a tangent just relating to the numbers is that I've rarely seen people get those totals with those numbers. There's usually one lift that lags, with the other two taking up the slack.

Definitely the person who comes in and has that even kind of distribution between the lifts is going to do well, and that arguably is a decent indication of someone at the least genetically favoured for the sport of powerlifting.
For sure. I would think just having the 400 bench alone would put one in a top tier. I used to lift at a well know powerlifter spot in NY. 700 lb DLs were a dime a dozen (nearly all pulled sumo or modified sumo), and some of those dudes weren’t large. 500 lb squats probably were half as common, if even, but the guys who had them nearly all looked like it. 400 lb benches were far less common even than that, and those dudes all were fucking jacked. Varying levels of leanness, but all jacked up to their ears.

Our community here is comprised of lots of dudes who take this stuff pretty seriously for (mostly) non competitors. Other than @Hanley and @broseph, does anyone have a 400 bench?
That is bang on the money.

Bench takes much longer to build unless you're purpose built for it, and even then it's no given you'll just hit 400 lbs.

I certainly wonder how long it'll take me. I absolutely refuse to say if I ever get there but I know it'll take a while if only to build the base for it no matter which way I go about it.

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CheekiBreekiFitness
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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#60

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Thu Apr 06, 2023 11:33 pm

JonnyRockets wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 12:23 pm
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:12 am some lifters will be doomed to be "intermediate forever"
Hanley wrote: The guys who get good at dosing stress and intuiting fatigue go on to get enormously strong. Guys who can’t are forever-intermediate, cycling through various tendinopathies.
I think of this often. (While nursing various tendinopathies.)
That was exactly the quote. Thanks brother !

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