What is fatigue?

[Addidas17]

Hello im new to this forum but joined after seeing a lot of intelligent discusssions on here.

For a while I was a consistent gym goer doing power building style workouts. Everything was good I enjoyed the gym I looked good and felt good. That was until I started reading beardsley. As you guys may know you get bombarded with posts about fatigue. And counter intuitive to me, it seems that fatigue and hypertrophy are unrelated. Beardsley defines fatigue under a very narrow objective measure of performance loss. He also says that the objective measure and subjective sensation are unrelated. To me it seems highly counter intuitive that the subjective sensation and the objective measurement are unrelated. For one mechanical and metabolic afferents give us sensation and can also contribute to fatigue. Maybe they are unrelated to a degree since I’ve read a study about how serotonin increases sensations of fatigue without performance losses.

The point of my post is that I’ve internalized this and I’ve gotten absolutely lost in my head. Prior to reading this stuff I was under the impression that the sensation and objective measurement were the same thing. I also thought after a workout you should feel a fatigue sensation in your muscles as that shows that you applied a stimulus to them. To me that fatigue sensation feels good like your muscles are relaxed and full of blood even hours after the workout. Now I’m not sure and any sensations of fatigue automatically cause me to go into a mental tailspin. I honestly feel disconnected from my body I’m not even sure what your supposed to feel anymore. Additionally it’s not that I believe long lasting crippling fatigue and soreness is a good thing. It’s more that I believe you should feel something.

Now I do suffer from OCD and can obsess about things to an insane degree. I’m sure that plays a part in what I’m experiencing. I’m hoping to hear your guys opinions on the topic. This has honestly effected my life pretty negatively. Also sorry if this rambled on too long. Thanks in advance for an answers

[DCR]

A LIE THAT YOUR BODY IS TELLING YOU.

I’m kidding. That said, I’m not sure that I’m fully following the issue - is your concern is that you aren’t making / won’t make progress unless you leave each session with a particular set of physical and emotional manifestations? I would just measure how you’re doing via the weight on the bar. If powerbuilding is your thing, that’ll mean the weight in a 8-12 or so rep range. If the overall trend is that it’s going up, or at least not going down, all is good.

If you’re super neurotic such that the daily ebbs and flows of training throw you into an emptional tailspin, consider Wendler’s (and others, I’m sure) idea of a base. Using my own sad numbers, I most recently managed to squat 265x10. That’s not something that I can do on the regular. But, I can squat 225x10 anytime. So if I was crazy neurotic, I might hit that “base” every now and then just as a reminder that I have it and all is good with the world. He does this more with BW challenges (like being able to x sets times y pullups or whatever) but I think that you easily can adapt the idea to your barbell work.

[Addidas17]

A LIE THAT YOUR BODY IS TELLING YOU.

I’m kidding. That said, I’m not sure that I’m fully following the issue - is your concern is that you aren’t making / won’t make progress unless you leave each session with a particular set of physical and emotional manifestations? I would just measure how you’re doing via the weight on the bar. If powerbuilding is your thing, that’ll mean the weight in a 8-12 or so rep range. If the overall trend is that it’s going up, or at least down going down, all is good.

If you’re super neurotic such that the daily ebbs and flows of training throw you into an emptional tailspin, consider Wendler’s (and others, I’m sure) idea of a base. Using my own sad numbers, I most recently managed to squat 265x10. That’s not something that I can do on the regular. But, I can squat 225x10 anytime. So if I was crazy neurotic, I might hit that “base” every now and then just as a reminder that I have it and all is good with the world. He does this more with BW challenges (like being able to x sets times y pullups or whatever) but I think that you easily can adapt the idea to your barbell work.

I don’t think I explained it clearly. What’s bothering me is that I feel the need for feeling fatigue after a workout. Like the feeling that the muscles have been worked. However Beardsley constantly says how fatigue (performance loss) is unrelated to hypertrophy. It seems tho that fatigue(performance loss) and fatigue(sensation) have to be correlated. In my mind it’s like he’s saying those sensations are not valuable and don’t tell you anything about the quality of the workout. For me the largest reason I worked out was how it made me feel.

[dw]

You don't need to feel fatigued. Or sore, or whatever. You'll probably feel something but there's definitely not a strict correlation between how bad you feel and anything good.

It's also true interestingly that you can be excessive fatigued without realizing it until you actually measure performance.

Some muscles like quads feel very clearly beat when they are beat, but others like triceps feel fine to me until I try them and realize I need a deload.

[DCR]

[Is] your concern is that you aren’t making / won’t make progress unless you leave each session with a particular set of physical and emotional manifestations?

What’s bothering me is that I feel the need for feeling fatigue after a workout. Like the feeling that the muscles have been worked.

Seems like we’re saying the same thing, unless you mean that you need this feeling in and of itself, separate and apart from any progress. If that’s the case, I’m sure that you can find a means of blasting yourself regularly. People love CrossFit for this. On the other hand, if you want the fatigue and some measurable progress at lifting weights, pull up DoggCrapp or any other old intensity based scheme and get after it.

[Addidas17]

You don't need to feel fatigued. Or sore, or whatever. You'll probably feel something but there's definitely not a strict correlation between how bad you feel and anything good.

It's also true interestingly that you can be excessive fatigued without realizing it until you actually measure performance.

Some muscles like quads feel very clearly beat when they are beat, but others like triceps feel fine to me until I try them and realize I need a deload.

That’s a good point maybe it’s not even fatigue that I’m chasing but that feeling of relaxation after exercise.

[Addidas17]

[Is] your concern is that you aren’t making / won’t make progress unless you leave each session with a particular set of physical and emotional manifestations?

What’s bothering me is that I feel the need for feeling fatigue after a workout. Like the feeling that the muscles have been worked.

Seems like we’re saying the same thing, unless you mean that you need this feeling in and of itself, separate and apart from any progress. If that’s the case, I’m sure that you can find a means of blasting yourself regularly. People love CrossFit for this. On the other hand, if you want the fatigue and some measurable progress at lifting weights, pull up DoggCrapp or any other old intensity based scheme and get after it.

Kinda like I needed the feeling in itself but also it feels like my body is dependent on it for progress. I think it would more accurately be described as a deep relaxation rather then a fatigue. Presumably that’s why we feel a desire to relax after working out to allow our muscles to get better bloodflow/nutrients.

[CaptainAwesome]

Some muscles like quads feel very clearly beat when they are beat, but others like triceps feel fine to me until I try them and realize I need a deload.

I get this a lot with spinal erectors.

[Philbert]

The point of my post is that I’ve internalized this and I’ve gotten absolutely lost in my head.

Now I’m not sure and any sensations of fatigue automatically cause me to go into a mental tailspin. I honestly feel disconnected from my body I’m not even sure what your supposed to feel anymore. Additionally it’s not that I believe long lasting crippling fatigue and soreness is a good thing. It’s more that I believe you should feel something.

Now I do suffer from OCD and can obsess about things to an insane degree. I’m sure that plays a part in what I’m experiencing.

I shortened this quote to show that you fully understand the problem
I suggest you stop reading Beardsley, whoever that is. In fact, stop reading about the physiology of training. It is a science in its infancy anyway, you won't miss any profound truth. Work out. Enjoy the pump. Get stronger, or faster, or bigger, or leaner, or just be happy because your brain is telling you "you did something stressful to your muscles today" And on days when that feeling does not come, be happy because your brain is telling you "you have trained consistently and well, that isn't even hard anymore".

[Addidas17]

The point of my post is that I’ve internalized this and I’ve gotten absolutely lost in my head.

Now I’m not sure and any sensations of fatigue automatically cause me to go into a mental tailspin. I honestly feel disconnected from my body I’m not even sure what your supposed to feel anymore. Additionally it’s not that I believe long lasting crippling fatigue and soreness is a good thing. It’s more that I believe you should feel something.

Now I do suffer from OCD and can obsess about things to an insane degree. I’m sure that plays a part in what I’m experiencing.

I shortened this quote to show that you fully understand the problem
I suggest you stop reading Beardsley, whoever that is. In fact, stop reading about the physiology of training. It is a science in its infancy anyway, you won't miss any profound truth. Work out. Enjoy the pump. Get stronger, or faster, or bigger, or leaner, or just be happy because your brain is telling you "you did something stressful to your muscles today" And on days when that feeling does not come, be happy because your brain is telling you "you have trained consistently and well, that isn't even hard anymore".

Great advise I really appreciate that. I do need to step away from reading all the physiology. Hopefully I can go back to feeling without all of the analysis.

[dw]

Some muscles like quads feel very clearly beat when they are beat, but others like triceps feel fine to me until I try them and realize I need a deload.

I get this a lot with spinal erectors.

There was a period of quite a few months when I had decided to bump up my triceps volume to what was in fact too much volume, but between the fact that I was traveling a lot (and therefore using different equipment) and the fact that I felt no fatigue at all in my triceps, I couldn't figure out what was going on.

I wound up cutting the volume by 1/3rd and seem to be progressing steadily again.

Whereas with quads I strongly suspect from the first set that I'm going to regress when I'm going to regress. Quad fatigue to me is basically DOMs when you don't normally get DOMs.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

I believe that almost all trainees would benefit from almost completely ignoring physiology, biomechanics and nutrition.

Instead, treat your body like a black box. Essentially imagine that your body is a system where the input is volume, intensity, frequency, exercise selection, calories, and protein, and that the output is your performance (for instance your 1RM, your best set of 5@8, your best set of 20, whatever). Then figure out what are the combinations of input variables that result in an increase of the output through experimentation. The internal mechanics of the black box are of no importance.

I don't need to read Beardsley and understand fatigue on a molecular level. If my performance is increasing block to block then I know that fatigue is in check. If my performance drops from block to block, I need to bring some variables down to keep fatigue in check. That's all.

I understand that it feels good to learn a bunch of complex information about physiology, biomechanics and nutrition, but if you're only lifting weights to try to get better at lifting weights, the overwhelming majority of this information is useless, and is a waste of resources. Instead, focus your resources on the act of lifting, the act of eating and the act of sleeping.

[Addidas17]

I believe that almost all trainees would benefit from almost completely ignoring physiology, biomechanics and nutrition.

Instead, treat your body like a black box. Essentially imagine that your body is a system where the input is volume, intensity, frequency, exercise selection, calories, and protein, and that the output is your performance (for instance your 1RM, your best set of 5@8, your best set of 20, whatever). Then figure out what are the combinations of input variables that result in an increase of the output through experimentation. The internal mechanics of the black box are of no importance.

I don't need to read Beardsley and understand fatigue on a molecular level. If my performance is increasing block to block then I know that fatigue is in check. If my performance drops from block to block, I need to bring some variables down to keep fatigue in check. That's all.

I understand that it feels good to learn a bunch of complex information about physiology, biomechanics and nutrition, but if you're only lifting weights to try to get better at lifting weights, the overwhelming majority of this information is useless, and is a waste of resources. Instead, focus your resources on the act of lifting, the act of eating and the act of sleeping.

Truly agree with that statement. That’s what I mostly did before. I looked at very simple variables and how I felt. Now I’m caught in a loop where I’m wondering how do I know what I feel is right. I know it’s just my ocd acting up making me second guess everything. I think it doesn’t help that some of these physiology pages constantly talk about muscle damage. Now I feel like I’m holding back in my workouts cause the way it’s painted, it’s like our body is this super sensitive thing.

[Brackish]

For a while I was a consistent gym goer doing power building style workouts. Everything was good I enjoyed the gym I looked good and felt good. That was until I started reading beardsley. As you guys may know you get bombarded with posts about fatigue. And counter intuitive to me, it seems that fatigue and hypertrophy are unrelated. Beardsley defines fatigue under a very narrow objective measure of performance loss. He also says that the objective measure and subjective sensation are unrelated. To me it seems highly counter intuitive that the subjective sensation and the objective measurement are unrelated. For one mechanical and metabolic afferents give us sensation and can also contribute to fatigue. Maybe they are unrelated to a degree since I’ve read a study about how serotonin increases sensations of fatigue without performance losses.

I don't know that others (way smarter, stronger, and bigger than I'll ever be) would agree with that, unless I'm completely misunderstanding the point he's trying to make. Give the video below a watch and/or check out some of the Renaissance Periodization stuff on hypertrophy/muscle disruption/etc.

N of 1 - I lifted for a few years and never felt "fatigued". I also didn't get any bigger during that period of time, at least not noticeably so. I changed my workouts to make sure I'm feeling the things discussed in the video below (e.g. a pump, loss of performance, soreness, etc.), and I have made visually noticeable (to me anyways) gains in the past year.

[Addidas17]

For a while I was a consistent gym goer doing power building style workouts. Everything was good I enjoyed the gym I looked good and felt good. That was until I started reading beardsley. As you guys may know you get bombarded with posts about fatigue. And counter intuitive to me, it seems that fatigue and hypertrophy are unrelated. Beardsley defines fatigue under a very narrow objective measure of performance loss. He also says that the objective measure and subjective sensation are unrelated. To me it seems highly counter intuitive that the subjective sensation and the objective measurement are unrelated. For one mechanical and metabolic afferents give us sensation and can also contribute to fatigue. Maybe they are unrelated to a degree since I’ve read a study about how serotonin increases sensations of fatigue without performance losses.

I don't know that others (way smarter, stronger, and bigger than I'll ever be) would agree with that, unless I'm completely misunderstanding the point he's trying to make. Give the video below a watch and/or check out some of the Renaissance Periodization stuff on hypertrophy/muscle disruption/etc.

N of 1 - I lifted for a few years and never felt "fatigued". I also didn't get any bigger during that period of time, at least not noticeably so. I changed my workouts to make sure I'm feeling the things discussed in the video below (e.g. a pump, loss of performance, soreness, etc.), and I have made visually noticeable (to me anyways) gains in the past year.

Yes I feel the need for these things. Without them I feel like I’m really not making progress. Like it legit feels like my muscles have not been stimulated without them. I’m kinda wondering though if my issue is that I’m getting caught up in noise. Meaning that I’m reading studies that might not truly apply to me. For example the workouts performed in a lab might be way more intense then what I normally do in the gym. So that my fears of fatigue/ muscle damage might apply to extreme cases and not the normal workout i do.

[Hardartery]

Hello im new to this forum but joined after seeing a lot of intelligent discusssions on here.

For a while I was a consistent gym goer doing power building style workouts. Everything was good I enjoyed the gym I looked good and felt good. That was until I started reading beardsley. As you guys may know you get bombarded with posts about fatigue. And counter intuitive to me, it seems that fatigue and hypertrophy are unrelated. Beardsley defines fatigue under a very narrow objective measure of performance loss. He also says that the objective measure and subjective sensation are unrelated. To me it seems highly counter intuitive that the subjective sensation and the objective measurement are unrelated. For one mechanical and metabolic afferents give us sensation and can also contribute to fatigue. Maybe they are unrelated to a degree since I’ve read a study about how serotonin increases sensations of fatigue without performance losses.

The point of my post is that I’ve internalized this and I’ve gotten absolutely lost in my head. Prior to reading this stuff I was under the impression that the sensation and objective measurement were the same thing. I also thought after a workout you should feel a fatigue sensation in your muscles as that shows that you applied a stimulus to them. To me that fatigue sensation feels good like your muscles are relaxed and full of blood even hours after the workout. Now I’m not sure and any sensations of fatigue automatically cause me to go into a mental tailspin. I honestly feel disconnected from my body I’m not even sure what your supposed to feel anymore. Additionally it’s not that I believe long lasting crippling fatigue and soreness is a good thing. It’s more that I believe you should feel something.

Now I do suffer from OCD and can obsess about things to an insane degree. I’m sure that plays a part in what I’m experiencing. I’m hoping to hear your guys opinions on the topic. This has honestly effected my life pretty negatively. Also sorry if this rambled on too long. Thanks in advance for an answers

There is a difference between muscular fatigue and general fatigue. You absolutely want to fatigue the given muscles involved in a workout, that's the whole point of the workout. Overall general fatigue, CNS fatigue usually, is something different that you must manage. Both work capacity and overall fatigue are things that you can train and increase over time. The only serious consideration regarding fatigue is that when you are overdoing it you will know it, your lifts will drop and you will lose drive to do things. That means it's time for a deload or a week off if you are sleeping and eating. And whatever Beardsley is you should start ignoring it.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

To add to what @Hardartery said, in RP-speak, there are two distinct things:
- stimulus
- fatigue
Stimulus is all the good things that your training does and fatigue is the cost that you have to pay in exchange for that. Feeling a pump, feeling tension in the muscle, being sore etc. is not something they use to evaluate fatigue, it is something that they use to evaluate stimulus. The goal of a good training session is not to accumulate fatigue, it is to accumulate stimulus.

On a tangent: has Beardsley trained anyone of note ? Is he strong himself ? I am genuinely curious because I tried to find his achievements using some google-fu but went nowhere. Call me a meathead but to me, if you're not strong and have never trained people to get strong, then your advice is worth nothing, as far as the practical act of training is concerned.

[KyleSchuant]

I believe that almost all trainees would benefit from almost completely ignoring physiology, biomechanics and nutrition.

Yes and no. I think of the Bruce Lee quote, “Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick.”

The thing is, he had to go through all that complexity to come back to where he started and truly understand the simplicity of it. Not that I know anything much about martial arts, but I figure we can trust Bruce Lee on it and it seems like something relevant.

So I'd say: yeah, go into that stuff if you like. So long as it doesn't stop you getting under the bar and then going home and eating a whole roast chicken.

[MarkKO]

To add to what @Hardartery said, in RP-speak, there are two distinct things:
- stimulus
- fatigue
Stimulus is all the good things that your training does and fatigue is the cost that you have to pay in exchange for that. Feeling a pump, feeling tension in the muscle, being sore etc. is not something they use to evaluate fatigue, it is something that they use to evaluate stimulus. The goal of a good training session is not to accumulate fatigue, it is to accumulate stimulus.

On a tangent: has Beardsley trained anyone of note ? Is he strong himself ? I am genuinely curious because I tried to find his achievements using some google-fu but went nowhere. Call me a meathead but to me, if you're not strong and have never trained people to get strong, then your advice is worth nothing, as far as the practical act of training is concerned.

Meathead

In all seriousness though, I absolutely agree. You wouldn't take cooking classes from someone who doesn't cook well, after all.

[Addidas17]

To add to what @Hardartery said, in RP-speak, there are two distinct things:
- stimulus
- fatigue
Stimulus is all the good things that your training does and fatigue is the cost that you have to pay in exchange for that. Feeling a pump, feeling tension in the muscle, being sore etc. is not something they use to evaluate fatigue, it is something that they use to evaluate stimulus. The goal of a good training session is not to accumulate fatigue, it is to accumulate stimulus.

On a tangent: has Beardsley trained anyone of note ? Is he strong himself ? I am genuinely curious because I tried to find his achievements using some google-fu but went nowhere. Call me a meathead but to me, if you're not strong and have never trained people to get strong, then your advice is worth nothing, as far as the practical act of training is concerned.

I have been wondering about this on a conceptual level now for a little bit. Stimulus abs fatigue are considered by many as two seperate things. Like fatigue is just a by product of the stimulus. Mechanical tension is the stimulus but it’s painted as if muscle cells just experience a nudge or deformation but not an actual challenge to homeostasis. To me it seems silly that our body would use resources to grow muscles unless they actually experienced a serious challenge to homeostasis. Therefore in my mind some sort of muscle damage/fatigue/ inflammation would have to be necessary instead of a useless byproduct. Like I know there have been studies showing that hypertrophy was greatest when muscle damage was the least. But maybe there’s still a baseline amount necessary and too much is detrimental