IPF bench rule nonsense

Powerlifting, Olympic Weightlifting, Strongman, Highland Games

Moderator: Manveer

Post Reply
User avatar
Hardartery
Registered User
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:28 pm
Location: Fat City

IPF bench rule nonsense

#1

Post by Hardartery » Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:19 am

I have the Sheffield 23 feed going in the background today while I do other stuff. Just finished the Women's Bench flight a few minutes ago and frankly I am now convinced that the depth rule is stupid. I saw some reds for bench depth an not extreme arches and frankly beautiful bench attempts. The Polish chick (Agata? I think) got robbed on her first attempt. It sounded fine in theory but in practice not so much.

User avatar
Hardartery
Registered User
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:28 pm
Location: Fat City

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#2

Post by Hardartery » Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:43 pm

Just to add to that, Olivares pulled a third DL of 410 kg that looked like a warmup and got a No Lift, which got overturned on challenge. I'm just a SM guy, so I literally cannot figure out what could possibly have brought any reds on that pull. No hitch, no bobble, it didn't even slow down on the way up it just looked rocket propelled. This would be the problem with lifting and public popularity, how would regular anyone have a clue why a lift was good or not good?

User avatar
mgil
Shitpostmaster General
Posts: 8464
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:46 pm
Location: FlabLab©®
Age: 49

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#3

Post by mgil » Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:11 pm

Powerlifting is it’s own worst enemy.

gymdad150
Registered User
Posts: 586
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:57 pm
Age: 69

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#4

Post by gymdad150 » Sat Mar 25, 2023 5:06 pm

I'm still looking for a reason Gavin's Squat got overturned...

That Battle with Cayco was crazy.

The whole meet was crazy...in a good way.

MarkKO
Registered User
Posts: 2632
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:12 pm
Location: Australia

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#5

Post by MarkKO » Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:57 pm

The IPF and associated feds are - to put it kindly - a stain on the sport of powerlifting and have been for a while now.

Don't get me wrong, all the other feds have their issues and plenty of them but the IPF is the poster child for what a worthless federation looks like.

There's nothing wrong with drug testing (it's silly, but if that's your bag go for it); nothing wrong with using only one bar; and nothing wrong with being strict on the rules. The IPF and its minions take that last point and push it to the point that they will change the rules, their interpretation and their application of them to disadvantage competitors just to look like the federation is making an effort to create that ridiculous fiction of the level playing field.

When it comes to doing something to actually have a positive impact, the IPF is the last organisation to do it.

I have never and probably will never understand why anyone competes in the IPF now that there are so many other options.

User avatar
Clearwater47
Registered User
Posts: 296
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:59 pm
Location: Minnesota, USA
Age: 49

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#6

Post by Clearwater47 » Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:19 am

Hardartery wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:43 pm Just to add to that, Olivares pulled a third DL of 410 kg that looked like a warmup and got a No Lift, which got overturned on challenge. I'm just a SM guy, so I literally cannot figure out what could possibly have brought any reds on that pull. No hitch, no bobble, it didn't even slow down on the way up it just looked rocket propelled. This would be the problem with lifting and public popularity, how would regular anyone have a clue why a lift was good or not good?
I'm far from an expert on this but the only thing I saw that was slightly questionable on that deadlift was that he put the weight down very quickly and maybe didn't control it on the way down as much as the judges wanted. I haven't watched it back but his feet may have even come off the ground on the descent. I'm glad it got overturned. The speed he pulled that with was ridiculous and I wonder how far he could've actually pushed it.

There were several lifts that got red lights and I had no idea why. It's definitely not very spectator friendly from that standpoint.

User avatar
Wilhelm
Little Musk Ox
Posts: 9712
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:58 pm
Location: Living Room
Age: 62

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#7

Post by Wilhelm » Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:02 am

IPF refs like to be hardasses to the point of making bad calls because they think they (IPF) are better than everyone else and it is somehow their job to prove it with their calls.

The jury at worlds last year overturned so many bad calls.

Guess credit has to be given fot that at least.

I will say that this is maybe the first time i have heard the IPF commentators not just kow-tow to each and every call when they actually disageee.

User avatar
Skid
Registered User
Posts: 1788
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:11 am
Location: Paradise Valley
Age: 60

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#8

Post by Skid » Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:56 pm

I compete in the IPF because it is the most legit tested org with by far the most lifters, and one of only two org's that hold events in my area. That said the judging is sometimes inconsistent, and many times the lifter has no idea what they did wrong. They should at least tell you the reason for red lighting a lift.

At least at National level events they have a jury which can tell you the reason for a failed lift but you have to ask. I got red lighted for a seeming good bench which was also a National record. All the lifters watching wondered why I got red lighted too. Apparently I didn't listen for a command but thought I did. I should review the video but whatever, it's in the past now, and I'll have another shot at it in a couple months.

MarkKO
Registered User
Posts: 2632
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:12 pm
Location: Australia

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#9

Post by MarkKO » Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:26 am

Skid wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:56 pm I compete in the IPF because it is the most legit tested org with by far the most lifters, and one of only two org's that hold events in my area. That said the judging is sometimes inconsistent, and many times the lifter has no idea what they did wrong. They should at least tell you the reason for red lighting a lift.

At least at National level events they have a jury which can tell you the reason for a failed lift but you have to ask. I got red lighted for a seeming good bench which was also a National record. All the lifters watching wondered why I got red lighted too. Apparently I didn't listen for a command but thought I did. I should review the video but whatever, it's in the past now, and I'll have another shot at it in a couple months.
Much as I dislike the IPF I can't fault at least the second reason. Always best to go where there is the most competition.

I have to ask though, and this is an honest question because I'm genuinely curious: why is drug testing important to you?

I guess I always figure that one, the adage that drug tested doesn't mean drug free holds water; and two, using PEDs is just one other option to give you an edge that's available to pretty much anyone. Not using them is just a choice. I'm quite risk-averse, so knowing the health risks associated with PEDs as well as the increased injury risk means I'm unlikely to chose to use them. Someone who is willing to accept those risks may be willing to use them. Why should they not be allowed the advantages if they accept the risks? I could have those advantages just the same, if I accepted the risks.

User avatar
Wilhelm
Little Musk Ox
Posts: 9712
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:58 pm
Location: Living Room
Age: 62

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#10

Post by Wilhelm » Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:40 am

Skid wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:56 pm I compete in the IPF because it is the most legit tested org with by far the most lifters, and one of only two org's that hold events in my area. That said the judging is sometimes inconsistent, and many times the lifter has no idea what they did wrong. They should at least tell you the reason for red lighting a lift.

At least at National level events they have a jury which can tell you the reason for a failed lift but you have to ask. I got red lighted for a seeming good bench which was also a National record. All the lifters watching wondered why I got red lighted too. Apparently I didn't listen for a command but thought I did. I should review the video but whatever, it's in the past now, and I'll have another shot at it in a couple months.
To be fair, Canada/CPU is ultra hardcore with testing.
On the other hand, IPF as a whole, (all countries at all levels) is spotty/inconsistent at best.

**
"They should at least tell you the reason for red lighting a lift."
**
In my experiance, all i ever have to do is ask the ref.
We had all national level refs at this last meet, and they were sharp.
I got one red on my squat opener, asked the side ref and he said i unlocked and relocked my knee after the squat command and before the descent.
I fixed that and got all whites on 2nd and 3rd.

User avatar
Skid
Registered User
Posts: 1788
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:11 am
Location: Paradise Valley
Age: 60

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#11

Post by Skid » Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:44 am

MarkKO wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:26 am I have to ask though, and this is an honest question because I'm genuinely curious: why is drug testing important to you?

I guess I always figure that one, the adage that drug tested doesn't mean drug free holds water; and two, using PEDs is just one other option to give you an edge that's available to pretty much anyone. Not using them is just a choice. I'm quite risk-averse, so knowing the health risks associated with PEDs as well as the increased injury risk means I'm unlikely to chose to use them. Someone who is willing to accept those risks may be willing to use them. Why should they not be allowed the advantages if they accept the risks? I could have those advantages just the same, if I accepted the risks.
That seems like a silly question to me. Taking PED's obviously gives you an great advantage. I am a lifetime PED free lifter and want to compete against people who do not have the PED advantage. Basically to see where my natural human limits are vs other natural people.

If I was to start taking PED's I wouldn't compete against natural people because it isn't fair. And quite frankly the thought of taking PED's has crossed my mind more than once so I have nothing against PED use. If you want to take PED's, I don't care. There are many untested fed's where you can compete.

User avatar
Skid
Registered User
Posts: 1788
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:11 am
Location: Paradise Valley
Age: 60

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#12

Post by Skid » Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:52 am

Wilhelm wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:40 am [
To be fair, Canada/CPU is ultra hardcore with testing.
On the other hand, IPF as a whole, (all countries at all levels) is spotty/inconsistent at best.

**
"They should at least tell you the reason for red lighting a lift."
**
In my experiance, all i ever have to do is ask the ref.
We had all national level refs at this last meet, and they were sharp.
I got one red on my squat opener, asked the side ref and he said i unlocked and relocked my knee after the squat command and before the descent.
I fixed that and got all whites on 2nd and 3rd.
I can see asking the ref's at a smaller meet and having them give a response. At a larger or National level meet with many lifters and a time crunch they ignore you or they refer you to the jury if there is one. At least that is my experience and I wasn't being a jerk either.

User avatar
Hardartery
Registered User
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:28 pm
Location: Fat City

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#13

Post by Hardartery » Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:59 am

Wilhelm wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:40 am
Skid wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:56 pm I compete in the IPF because it is the most legit tested org with by far the most lifters, and one of only two org's that hold events in my area. That said the judging is sometimes inconsistent, and many times the lifter has no idea what they did wrong. They should at least tell you the reason for red lighting a lift.

At least at National level events they have a jury which can tell you the reason for a failed lift but you have to ask. I got red lighted for a seeming good bench which was also a National record. All the lifters watching wondered why I got red lighted too. Apparently I didn't listen for a command but thought I did. I should review the video but whatever, it's in the past now, and I'll have another shot at it in a couple months.
To be fair, Canada/CPU is ultra hardcore with testing.
On the other hand, IPF as a whole, (all countries at all levels) is spotty/inconsistent at best.

**
"They should at least tell you the reason for red lighting a lift."
**
In my experiance, all i ever have to do is ask the ref.
We had all national level refs at this last meet, and they were sharp.
I got one red on my squat opener, asked the side ref and he said i unlocked and relocked my knee after the squat command and before the descent.
I fixed that and got all whites on 2nd and 3rd.
I have an issue with overly picky judging. There has to be some kind of standard, that's fine. Unlocking and relocking a knee after the command? That's just stupid. There is no benefit to the lifter and no advantage over the lift, that's just penny ante bullshit like the stuff in Weightlifting. And the lifters tolerate it, which is even more surprising.
At the first Boston contest that Art put on way back when Svend won WSM there were some O-lifting judges used for the Log Press. They gave down signals and then took away the rep after the down signal for nonsense. Like in my case, he gave me the down and then took it away because he said that I did not "Demonstrate control sufficiently". I was standing there relaxed and could have stood there for an hour if necessary the only reason I put it down was the down signal. We raised so much hell about it that it is now a standard rule across the board in Strongman at all levels - if you get the down signal you get the lift. No signal before the lift is good. Period. This one of many problems with feds like the IPF.

User avatar
Clearwater47
Registered User
Posts: 296
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:59 pm
Location: Minnesota, USA
Age: 49

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#14

Post by Clearwater47 » Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:03 am

MarkKO wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:26 amI guess I always figure that one, the adage that drug tested doesn't mean drug free holds water; and two, using PEDs is just one other option to give you an edge that's available to pretty much anyone. Not using them is just a choice. I'm quite risk-averse, so knowing the health risks associated with PEDs as well as the increased injury risk means I'm unlikely to chose to use them. Someone who is willing to accept those risks may be willing to use them. Why should they not be allowed the advantages if they accept the risks? I could have those advantages just the same, if I accepted the risks.
I kind of get this, but even with testing not being full proof I feel like it's a distinction worth making.

Anyone could accept the risk associated with bulking to 400 pounds and gain the advantages that come with that, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be weight classes.

gymdad150
Registered User
Posts: 586
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:57 pm
Age: 69

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#15

Post by gymdad150 » Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:44 am

Skid wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:52 am
Wilhelm wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:40 am [
To be fair, Canada/CPU is ultra hardcore with testing.
On the other hand, IPF as a whole, (all countries at all levels) is spotty/inconsistent at best.

**
"They should at least tell you the reason for red lighting a lift."
**
In my experiance, all i ever have to do is ask the ref.
We had all national level refs at this last meet, and they were sharp.
I got one red on my squat opener, asked the side ref and he said i unlocked and relocked my knee after the squat command and before the descent.
I fixed that and got all whites on 2nd and 3rd.
I can see asking the ref's at a smaller meet and having them give a response. At a larger or National level meet with many lifters and a time crunch they ignore you or they refer you to the jury if there is one. At least that is my experience and I wasn't being a jerk either.
I've had pretty good experiences at Nationals, except for Daytona.

Additionally my coach is also my handler at these meets and always gets the reasons for a red light from the judge(s).

At previous comps, I would always let the left side judge knw that I can't fully extend / hyperextend my left knee. The judge would thank me and off we'd go.

In Daytona, I forgot to mention the issue, and got held on my Squat for an interminable amount of time. I ended up having a conversation with the head judge, while the bar was on my back and ready to Squat. We agreed to disagree on my knee issue, but didn't get red lit. He did say that perhaps I should go "accommodative" because of my "disability".

User avatar
Skid
Registered User
Posts: 1788
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:11 am
Location: Paradise Valley
Age: 60

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#16

Post by Skid » Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:56 pm

gymdad150 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:44 am

I've had pretty good experiences at Nationals, except for Daytona.

Additionally my coach is also my handler at these meets and always gets the reasons for a red light from the judge(s).

At previous comps, I would always let the left side judge knw that I can't fully extend / hyperextend my left knee. The judge would thank me and off we'd go.

In Daytona, I forgot to mention the issue, and got held on my Squat for an interminable amount of time. I ended up having a conversation with the head judge, while the bar was on my back and ready to Squat. We agreed to disagree on my knee issue, but didn't get red lit. He did say that perhaps I should go "accommodative" because of my "disability".
My problem might have been I had my wife as my coach :lol: Despite being a lifter, she doesn't know all the nuances of coaching. In fact that was her first time. I found out later my provincial team had several coaches who could have coached me during my meet. Because I'm fairly remote I'm not tied into the powerlifting scene in my province.

User avatar
walterkurda
Registered User
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu May 20, 2021 8:38 am
Location: Cologne (GER)
Age: 71
Contact:

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#17

Post by walterkurda » Wed May 31, 2023 4:35 am

Hardartery wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:19 am I have the Sheffield 23 feed going in the background today while I do other stuff. Just finished the Women's Bench flight a few minutes ago and frankly I am now convinced that the depth rule is stupid. I saw some reds for bench depth an not extreme arches and frankly beautiful bench attempts. The Polish chick (Agata? I think) got robbed on her first attempt. It sounded fine in theory but in practice not so much.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did half of my 400 bench press competitions with the IPF or the corresponding German association. Some "rules" at the IPF are actually nonsense. What strikes me above all is that many referees there give the commands much too slowly. if e.g. B. the dumbbell was taken out of the stand and the body is in the correct position, you have to wait forever until the press command comes. The same then on the chest. I myself was a starter for the sprint in athletics. There I had to observe eight athletes at the same time, and possibly call back the start within 2 tenths of a second if a sprinter made a false start. In powerlifting, the referee only watches one competitor who is also moving very slowly, and it still seems too fast...

User avatar
Hardartery
Registered User
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:28 pm
Location: Fat City

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#18

Post by Hardartery » Wed May 31, 2023 8:29 am

walterkurda wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:35 am
Hardartery wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:19 am I have the Sheffield 23 feed going in the background today while I do other stuff. Just finished the Women's Bench flight a few minutes ago and frankly I am now convinced that the depth rule is stupid. I saw some reds for bench depth an not extreme arches and frankly beautiful bench attempts. The Polish chick (Agata? I think) got robbed on her first attempt. It sounded fine in theory but in practice not so much.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did half of my 400 bench press competitions with the IPF or the corresponding German association. Some "rules" at the IPF are actually nonsense. What strikes me above all is that many referees there give the commands much too slowly. if e.g. B. the dumbbell was taken out of the stand and the body is in the correct position, you have to wait forever until the press command comes. The same then on the chest. I myself was a starter for the sprint in athletics. There I had to observe eight athletes at the same time, and possibly call back the start within 2 tenths of a second if a sprinter made a false start. In powerlifting, the referee only watches one competitor who is also moving very slowly, and it still seems too fast...
Given your experience and ability in the Bench, this is significant. I am glad to know it isn't just me thinking these things.

User avatar
Wilhelm
Little Musk Ox
Posts: 9712
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:58 pm
Location: Living Room
Age: 62

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#19

Post by Wilhelm » Wed May 31, 2023 8:45 am

Hardartery wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:29 am
walterkurda wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:35 am
Hardartery wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:19 am I have the Sheffield 23 feed going in the background today while I do other stuff. Just finished the Women's Bench flight a few minutes ago and frankly I am now convinced that the depth rule is stupid. I saw some reds for bench depth an not extreme arches and frankly beautiful bench attempts. The Polish chick (Agata? I think) got robbed on her first attempt. It sounded fine in theory but in practice not so much.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did half of my 400 bench press competitions with the IPF or the corresponding German association. Some "rules" at the IPF are actually nonsense. What strikes me above all is that many referees there give the commands much too slowly. if e.g. B. the dumbbell was taken out of the stand and the body is in the correct position, you have to wait forever until the press command comes. The same then on the chest. I myself was a starter for the sprint in athletics. There I had to observe eight athletes at the same time, and possibly call back the start within 2 tenths of a second if a sprinter made a false start. In powerlifting, the referee only watches one competitor who is also moving very slowly, and it still seems too fast...
Given your experience and ability in the Bench, this is significant. I am glad to know it isn't just me thinking these things.
It's as if IPF refs are following their own rule, making it actually a time based pause, which is not what the rule states.

Also noticed how many squat depth calls were overruled by the jury in South Africa.
Refs having something to prove about how IPF judging is "the highest standard"

User avatar
Hardartery
Registered User
Posts: 3107
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:28 pm
Location: Fat City

Re: IPF bench rule nonsense

#20

Post by Hardartery » Wed May 31, 2023 9:32 am

Wilhelm wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:45 am
Hardartery wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:29 am
walterkurda wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:35 am
Hardartery wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:19 am I have the Sheffield 23 feed going in the background today while I do other stuff. Just finished the Women's Bench flight a few minutes ago and frankly I am now convinced that the depth rule is stupid. I saw some reds for bench depth an not extreme arches and frankly beautiful bench attempts. The Polish chick (Agata? I think) got robbed on her first attempt. It sounded fine in theory but in practice not so much.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did half of my 400 bench press competitions with the IPF or the corresponding German association. Some "rules" at the IPF are actually nonsense. What strikes me above all is that many referees there give the commands much too slowly. if e.g. B. the dumbbell was taken out of the stand and the body is in the correct position, you have to wait forever until the press command comes. The same then on the chest. I myself was a starter for the sprint in athletics. There I had to observe eight athletes at the same time, and possibly call back the start within 2 tenths of a second if a sprinter made a false start. In powerlifting, the referee only watches one competitor who is also moving very slowly, and it still seems too fast...
Given your experience and ability in the Bench, this is significant. I am glad to know it isn't just me thinking these things.
It's as if IPF refs are following their own rule, making it actually a time based pause, which is not what the rule states.

Also noticed how many squat depth calls were overruled by the jury in South Africa.
Refs having something to prove about how IPF judging is "the highest standard"
I mean, I'm not in favour of high squats getting a pass or some of the BS lifts that get passed in some of the more infamous feds, but the other extreme is no better. There was a problem a bunch of years ago with short guys wearing platform shoes and such things to bench, they managed to ban that effectively, maybe they need to talk to the guys that came up with that rule change.

Post Reply