Wait times too short?

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timelinex
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Wait times too short?

#1

Post by timelinex » Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:57 pm

Well I've gotten back into the swing of things after a few year lay off (original thread). As mentioned in the original thread, I've decided to make things "more enjoyable and tolerable". Part of that was cutting wait time from like 5min+ to 3min, and accepting whatever strength losses that entailed.

I've mostly finished LP'ing my core lifts, and transition more to a 1@8, 3-4 sets of 5@80ish% as the lifts reach their end.

As mentioned earlier, I used to take like 5+ min on hard sets and 3+ minutes on volume sets. This time I've gotten used to LP'ing at 3 min. As I started transitioning and added volume, I tried lowering my wait times to continue being able to finish within ~1 hour. Shockingly, I've been able to go down to like 1.5 minutes on almost everything. The bigger lifts are 1.5 minutes too, but I Would say by the time I react, put on my belt, get under the weight, we are looking at more like 2.25 - 2.5 minutes.

I'm shocked and pleasantly surprised, as anything under 5 minutes used to be a huge struggle.

The only issue is I wonder if I'm just handicapping my lifts now? Have I gotten too soft? Am I just using a weight that's too light to be able to do sets of 5 squats every 2 min and "wasting my time". The "hardcore" voice in my heads from years past is making me doubt my new ways. :lol:

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Re: Wait times too short?

#2

Post by MarkKO » Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:18 pm

timelinex wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:57 pm Well I've gotten back into the swing of things after a few year lay off (original thread). As mentioned in the original thread, I've decided to make things "more enjoyable and tolerable". Part of that was cutting wait time from like 5min+ to 3min, and accepting whatever strength losses that entailed.

I've mostly finished LP'ing my core lifts, and transition more to a 1@8, 3-4 sets of 5@80ish% as the lifts reach their end.

As mentioned earlier, I used to take like 5+ min on hard sets and 3+ minutes on volume sets. This time I've gotten used to LP'ing at 3 min. As I started transitioning and added volume, I tried lowering my wait times to continue being able to finish within ~1 hour. Shockingly, I've been able to go down to like 1.5 minutes on almost everything. The bigger lifts are 1.5 minutes too, but I Would say by the time I react, put on my belt, get under the weight, we are looking at more like 2.25 - 2.5 minutes.

I'm shocked and pleasantly surprised, as anything under 5 minutes used to be a huge struggle.

The only issue is I wonder if I'm just handicapping my lifts now? Have I gotten too soft? Am I just using a weight that's too light to be able to do sets of 5 squats every 2 min and "wasting my time". The "hardcore" voice in my heads from years past is making me doubt my new ways. :lol:
I'll just put it out there that my rest times between sets are usually somewhere around 90 seconds. Five sets of five will usually take somewhere between six and 10 minutes depending on the lift and the load.

The whole idea that you *must* rest a certain amount of time between sets is mostly BS. There are absolutely certain occasions where you do need to, but usually that's where you're working over 85 per cent and generally that's infrequent like during a peak. Outside of that, your body is usually able to adapt to shorter rests pretty fast.

I have found a reasonably strong correlation between training density and strength increases, so pushing rest periods down is something I've found to be an effective way to increase strength.

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Re: Wait times too short?

#3

Post by Hardartery » Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:19 pm

timelinex wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:57 pm Well I've gotten back into the swing of things after a few year lay off (original thread). As mentioned in the original thread, I've decided to make things "more enjoyable and tolerable". Part of that was cutting wait time from like 5min+ to 3min, and accepting whatever strength losses that entailed.

I've mostly finished LP'ing my core lifts, and transition more to a 1@8, 3-4 sets of 5@80ish% as the lifts reach their end.

As mentioned earlier, I used to take like 5+ min on hard sets and 3+ minutes on volume sets. This time I've gotten used to LP'ing at 3 min. As I started transitioning and added volume, I tried lowering my wait times to continue being able to finish within ~1 hour. Shockingly, I've been able to go down to like 1.5 minutes on almost everything. The bigger lifts are 1.5 minutes too, but I Would say by the time I react, put on my belt, get under the weight, we are looking at more like 2.25 - 2.5 minutes.

I'm shocked and pleasantly surprised, as anything under 5 minutes used to be a huge struggle.

The only issue is I wonder if I'm just handicapping my lifts now? Have I gotten too soft? Am I just using a weight that's too light to be able to do sets of 5 squats every 2 min and "wasting my time". The "hardcore" voice in my heads from years past is making me doubt my new ways. :lol:
Just another variable. If you aren't up there above 85% (As @MarkKO mentioned, the longer rest periods are just being soft on yourself. It's another form of adaptation. Your body being able to recover faster between sets will absolutely have carryover for those couple of times a year when you might actually be pushing your max at a comp or something. For general life, you are probably a lot better off health wise to be conditioned by shorter rests anyway.

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Re: Wait times too short?

#4

Post by timelinex » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:35 pm

Thanks for the encouragement guys. I wasn't sure if I was just lying to myself for an "easier" time!

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Re: Wait times too short?

#5

Post by MarkKO » Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:00 pm

timelinex wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:35 pm Thanks for the encouragement guys. I wasn't sure if I was just lying to myself for an "easier" time!
Any time.

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Re: Wait times too short?

#6

Post by dw » Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:46 pm

I think that calling rest times a training variable is a good way to put it but that implies that they can in fact be too short. Which has been true in my experience.

I had two movements (neck curls and the adductor machine) where progress seemed too slow but adding volume caused regression and reducing it caused stagnation. In both cases adding 30s to my rest time (from 1m and 1.5m respectively) seemed to do the trick.

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Re: Wait times too short?

#7

Post by MarkKO » Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:19 pm

dw wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:46 pm I think that calling rest times a training variable is a good way to put it but that implies that they can in fact be too short. Which has been true in my experience.

I had two movements (neck curls and the adductor machine) where progress seemed too slow but adding volume caused regression and reducing it caused stagnation. In both cases adding 30s to my rest time (from 1m and 1.5m respectively) seemed to do the trick.
I've said it many times: time is the most underused training variable

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Re: Wait times too short?

#8

Post by broseph » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:03 am

MarkKO wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:19 pm I've said it many times: time is the most underused training variable
Quoting this because it sure seems worth quoting. I never really thought about it like that, but yeah...

I've been keeping my rests fairly short (3 minutes at most, usually closer to 2) for a while with good results. And adding 30 seconds to your rests when something stalls = magic progress.

My problem is how much I dilly dally when warming up and transitioning between movements.

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Re: Wait times too short?

#9

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:17 pm

Time and training density are so important, I fully agree.

There's a cascading effect that goes like:
- you get in shape
- so you can rest less
- so you work more per unit of time
- so your muscles get bigger
- so you get stronger

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Re: Wait times too short?

#10

Post by MarkKO » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:13 pm

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:17 pm Time and training density are so important, I fully agree.

There's a cascading effect that goes like:
- you get in shape
- so you can rest less
- so you work more per unit of time
- so your muscles get bigger
- so you get stronger
Bingo

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Re: Wait times too short?

#11

Post by perman » Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:28 am

The above is true, but I do think training for 3 hours per session works too. This just isn't probably a smart long-term strategy, since life tends to get in the way of doing that all the time, but I do think long training sessions work well in absense of that conditioning (which disappears quickly when life gets in the way of that too).

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Re: Wait times too short?

#12

Post by AlanMackey » Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:59 am

perman wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:28 am The above is true, but I do think training for 3 hours per session works too. This just isn't probably a smart long-term strategy, since life tends to get in the way of doing that all the time, but I do think long training sessions work well in absense of that conditioning (which disappears quickly when life gets in the way of that too).
Anything (strength related) longer than 45 minutes and I lose interest very quickly.

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Re: Wait times too short?

#13

Post by Bliss » Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:02 am

A suggestion:
Instead of tracking and timing each rest period, give the E "X" MOM approach a go.

Let a stopclock go just as you are about to begin your work set (with chalk, belt etc. pretty much ready to go), and whilst resting, plan to start your next work set so that you are ready at the right time.

I'm using this anywhere from actual EMOM for bro work up to E4MOM for squat/deadlift sets.

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Re: Wait times too short?

#14

Post by CaptainAwesome » Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:10 am

MarkKO wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:18 pm The whole idea that you *must* rest a certain amount of time between sets is mostly BS. There are absolutely certain occasions where you do need to, but usually that's where you're working over 85 per cent and generally that's infrequent like during a peak. Outside of that, your body is usually able to adapt to shorter rests pretty fast.
I have not found this to be the case at all with squats. I managed to train upper body lifts to be able to do this, but the squat always seems to turn a corner where exhaustion leads to form breakdown if I don't take some long ass rests. This definitely happens south of 85%.

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Re: Wait times too short?

#15

Post by broseph » Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:59 am

Bliss wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:02 am A suggestion:
Instead of tracking and timing each rest period, give the E "X" MOM approach a go.

Let a stopclock go just as you are about to begin your work set (with chalk, belt etc. pretty much ready to go), and whilst resting, plan to start your next work set so that you are ready at the right time.

I'm using this anywhere from actual EMOM for bro work up to E4MOM for squat/deadlift sets.
This is just about the only way I can keep myself honest with rest times. Super effective.

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Re: Wait times too short?

#16

Post by asdf » Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:06 pm

Bliss wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:02 am give the E "X" MOM approach a go.
...
I'm using this anywhere from actual EMOM for bro work up to E4MOM for squat/deadlift sets.
For recording workouts, I find this notation works better:

OT 4:00

Especially since I use a lot of fractional intervals, like OT 1:15.

/nitpick

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Re: Wait times too short?

#17

Post by MarkKO » Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:26 am

CaptainAwesome wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:10 am
MarkKO wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:18 pm The whole idea that you *must* rest a certain amount of time between sets is mostly BS. There are absolutely certain occasions where you do need to, but usually that's where you're working over 85 per cent and generally that's infrequent like during a peak. Outside of that, your body is usually able to adapt to shorter rests pretty fast.
I have not found this to be the case at all with squats. I managed to train upper body lifts to be able to do this, but the squat always seems to turn a corner where exhaustion leads to form breakdown if I don't take some long ass rests. This definitely happens south of 85%.
I would guess in that case a relatively small investment in conditioning would change this.

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Re: Wait times too short?

#18

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Fri Mar 17, 2023 4:09 am

Bliss wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:02 am A suggestion:
Instead of tracking and timing each rest period, give the E "X" MOM approach a go.

Let a stopclock go just as you are about to begin your work set (with chalk, belt etc. pretty much ready to go), and whilst resting, plan to start your next work set so that you are ready at the right time.

I'm using this anywhere from actual EMOM for bro work up to E4MOM for squat/deadlift sets.
That's exactly what I do for backoff sets on squats and deads. A typical example would be 5 sets of 3 with 80%e1RM E3MOM. Very time efficient and you get a lot of quality volume in a relatively short period of time.

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CheekiBreekiFitness
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Re: Wait times too short?

#19

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Fri Mar 17, 2023 4:10 am

CaptainAwesome wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:10 am
MarkKO wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:18 pm The whole idea that you *must* rest a certain amount of time between sets is mostly BS. There are absolutely certain occasions where you do need to, but usually that's where you're working over 85 per cent and generally that's infrequent like during a peak. Outside of that, your body is usually able to adapt to shorter rests pretty fast.
I have not found this to be the case at all with squats. I managed to train upper body lifts to be able to do this, but the squat always seems to turn a corner where exhaustion leads to form breakdown if I don't take some long ass rests. This definitely happens south of 85%.
It very much depends how in shape you are, I think. Doing conditionning every session definitely helped me (along with keeping my weight in check).

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Re: Wait times too short?

#20

Post by mbasic » Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:11 am

CaptainAwesome wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:10 am
MarkKO wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:18 pm The whole idea that you *must* rest a certain amount of time between sets is mostly BS. There are absolutely certain occasions where you do need to, but usually that's where you're working over 85 per cent and generally that's infrequent like during a peak. Outside of that, your body is usually able to adapt to shorter rests pretty fast.
I have not found this to be the case at all with squats. I managed to train upper body lifts to be able to do this, but the squat always seems to turn a corner where exhaustion leads to form breakdown if I don't take some long ass rests. This definitely happens south of 85%.
Curious, did you use different rest periods for say squats and bench?

Say the scenario where a die hard SS fan is resting 7 minutes for all lifts between all sets for all workouts ... and the comes to the realization his does not want to keep doing this.

He reduces to 2 min 30 sec .... well that might be ok for bench and curls. But that might not work so well for squats and deads.

I think you have to cut the bigger muscles a break to a larger degree than the smaller ones.

Lol at a fucktard resting 5-8 minutes on curls.

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