Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

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Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#1

Post by Bliss » Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:45 am

:( time has come to address this issue.

I'm not getting any younger or any less-fat (yet), and as long as i can remember (5-6 years old +), I've always struggled at running, playing sports, bike riding etc...

What I'd generally call "weak stamina".

So i would get out of breath really quickly, sweat crazily, start spitting like mad when i pushed myself, ultimately having to lower the intensity and eventually stop to catch a breath.

This applies what feels like equally bad to what would be considered LISS, HIIT or anything in between.

Even when lifting this is getting unpleasant.

Currently I have restarted lifting in an LP/HLM - type manner after a 3.5 year hiatus (3/week), and taken an interest in classic cross-country (Nordic) skiing on the weekends.

Going to order a Shwinn Airdyne AD8 this week and looking to implement that the remaining 2/week between lifting days.

Can you guys/gals give some pointers where to even start?

Any help greatly appreciated!

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#2

Post by 5hout » Tue Feb 14, 2023 6:24 am

The #1 thing that fucks people over when they try to build cardio (IMO) is the get up one day and try and run like they were 15 and weighing 130 lbs.

Start small. Fairly elevated heartrate, breathing decently hard for 5+ blocks of .5-5 minutes. This might be jog 30 seconds, rest 2m at first. It might be do 25kg snatches for 3m, rest 3m, snatch. Work in your bike. Whatever. Dragging sleds is fun as well.

But don't be discouraged. The first few weeks suck, then it's a plateau, then it still sucks. It always sucks b/c the point it to improve your cardio, so you need to be breathing heard with an elevated heart rate (i.e. you're in some Xeno's paradox situation where, since your body gets good at X amount, you need to push it slightly to keep getting to the same elevated heart rate).

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#3

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:05 am

Actually lifting weights can improve your cardio, providing that the rest period are short enough and that you do enough reps. Now if you're doing heavy sets of 5 with 8 minutes of rest in between its not going to help much.

Now I think your decision to buy the Airdyne is great. I like to do Tabata (sprint 20 seconds, rest 10 seconds, repeat 8 times) with it when I'm done lifting (I lift 4 times a week). It takes 4 minutes and its an absolute asskicker.

Another thing that I like is Greyskull's book on conditioning: it's a list of 10 minutes, WOD style workouts. Once again some of them can be major asskickers. You can select one of them at random and do it on a non lifting day. When you redo a workout try to improve your time.

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#4

Post by Michiganian » Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:06 am

@Bliss, if you can't do even LISS training, which is exertion about on par with normal walking on flat ground, then that's where you need to start.

Thing is, as @5hout mentioned, you need to start slow and ramp up. I'll use walking as an example, but, the same process applies regardless of cardio activity.

Take a 1/4 mile easy walk one day. If that was no challenge, double it the next. Keep doubling it until you run into difficulty. Keep doing that until it's no longer a challenge. Then start adding increments until it becomes challenging again.

Once you're able to walk a couple miles w/o it being challenging, start adding more difficult terrain, speed-walking, doing intermittent sets of longer-than-normal steps, walking backwards (if your balance is good enough), etc.

Same applies to strength training. Start light. Lighter than you feel necessary. Light enough to be able to do 2-3 sets of 8-12 reps so easily it seems almost like a waste of time. Wait a couple days to see how your muscles react. Do it again. If it's still not challenging: Bump the weight/resistance a bit next time. Keep doing that until you run into weight/resistance that challenges you. When you do: Keep doing that until it no longer challenges you, then bump the weights/resistance some more.

The reason I suggest waiting two days between weight-training sets is DOMS: Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness. You can do a set of weight training exercises that feel inconsequential that day, only to find out 24-48 hours later they weren't so inconsequential, after all ;)

Once you start getting in better shape you can start doing both cardio and strength training using progressive overload, which is when you'll start seeing more significant gains in each.

Don't neglect nutrition. Your body will need nourishment to build.

Lastly: Make certain you're doing strength-training in proper form. In the years I went to gyms, I saw far more gym-goers doing exercise with poor, often injury-provoking form, than I did in good form.

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#5

Post by BostonRugger » Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:24 am

Good advice so far. Lots of ways to skin the progression cat.

General thoughts in no particular order:

- If you don't specifically need/want to run, don't. Use the bike or the skis. I don't know what your bodyweight is, but even if you're not that heavy, your description of easy fatigue makes me think you'd need a lot of build-up before you can run much without beating up your feet/ankles/knees.

- You spoke of needing to quickly reduce intensity. This is fine. Start going and get to where you think you're around 75% of the way to "smoked." Then slow to a more comfortable "walking" type pace until your heart rate catches up. Get a digital stopwatch and track how long you're at high effort and how long at low/recovery effort. Each workout, increase the "work" time intervals 15-30 seconds while decreasing the rest/walk time. Once you're at ~20 straight minutes of high-effort time (jog/run pace), remove the walking/low-effort intervals and just lengthen the distance/time. Adding as little as 1-2 minutes per session is fine. Once you're at 35-40 minutes continuous, you can start messing around with higher pacing and intervals.

Bike is a very good investment.

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#6

Post by SnakePlissken » Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:14 am

BostonRugger wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:24 am Bike is a very good investment.
Seconded. I liked running and was good at it as a kid even when I played O-line in football, but I have bunions and as an adult that weighs 210 now my feet will ache for a few days if I run. I got a Titan Bike and you can do LISS or HIIT on it and there's no impact on your joints. My girlfriend likes it too and she just started lifting a few months ago with zero prior physical activity aside from horseback riding.

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#7

Post by Hardartery » Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:10 am

My experience so far is that Aidyne/Rogue bikes suck. They blow air in your face, which is noce, but were not particularly better or more comfortable than anything else for cardio. In fact all bikes are less comfortable and I personally don't care for being able to carry the work with my arms on those bikes. I have a normal stationary bike for space reasons where I am, 20-30 minutes on that is not really any easier or harder than the Rogue Echo that I had in the US for a while, but is keeps the work in my legs which I find more productive. My personal preference is an actual treadmill, and doing intervals on it gonig from high incline run to flat walk. Ellipticals piss my knees off, in spite of the point of them being to not piss off your knees, and all bikes are uncomfortable and in some cases bad for your manhood (Not making that up, some seats can actually cause issues with prolonged use). I likr the ols Stairmasters too, but they're a bit much for a home setting.
So, speaking as a 280 lb man that has gone all the way down to a 231 lb weigh in and back up, cardio sucks and you just have to embrace the suck and kick your own ass to get anywhere for cardio conditioning. Being on your feet for it is probably the healthiest overall approach.

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#8

Post by Michiganian » Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:11 am

I like bikes well enough. I used to bike (outdoors) quite a bit. But in terms of calorie-burn-per-unit-time they're not the most efficient.

When I had gym memberships I used to split my 30-minute HIIT workouts between treadmill, elliptical trainer, and upright stationary bike. I got the most calorie-burn-per-unit-time on the treadmill and elliptical. (As reported by on-machine and wearable tech. And, yes: I realize the actual numbers were only SWAGs.)

I'm using a C2 rower in my home gym. Those and ellipticals are the best, IMO. But not everybody can use them, for various reasons.

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#9

Post by DCR » Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:28 pm

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:05 am Actually lifting weights can improve your cardio, providing that the rest period are short enough and that you do enough reps. Now if you're doing heavy sets of 5 with 8 minutes of rest in between its not going to help much.
Yes, and if you want to utilize lifting weights to obtain and maintain some sort of useful baseline, recommend squats for 10s. If you have to start with the empty bar, that’s fine. Do whatever else you want in the gym, on the bike, whatever, but over time slowly work up those sets.

I had periods where I could squat a few triples with three plates, which is not impressive, but where I’m going with this is that at the same time I couldn’t squat 135x10 without wanting to die. That’s been my sign over the years that I really need to get my shit together. The better thing would have been to never lose my shit in the first place. Maintaining some ability with higher reps wouldn’t have hurt and almost certainly would have helped.

Also, second the Echo Bike.

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#10

Post by Allentown » Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:40 pm

DCR wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:28 pm Also, second the Echo Bike.
+1

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#11

Post by MarkKO » Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:03 pm

DCR wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:28 pm
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:05 am Actually lifting weights can improve your cardio, providing that the rest period are short enough and that you do enough reps. Now if you're doing heavy sets of 5 with 8 minutes of rest in between its not going to help much.
Yes, and if you want to utilize lifting weights to obtain and maintain some sort of useful baseline, recommend squats for 10s. If you have to start with the empty bar, that’s fine. Do whatever else you want in the gym, on the bike, whatever, but over time slowly work up those sets.

I had periods where I could squat a few triples with three plates, which is not impressive, but where I’m going with this is that at the same time I couldn’t squat 135x10 without wanting to die. That’s been my sign over the years that I really need to get my shit together. The better thing would have been to never lose my shit in the first place. Maintaining some ability with higher reps wouldn’t have hurt and almost certainly would have helped.

Also, second the Echo Bike.
+1 for lifting weights, but you do need to be able to execute the lifts reasonably well for this to work because if your technique is poor adding cardiovascular fatigue into the mix is a recipe for problems.

If you want to include a conditioning element in your lifting, there are a couple of things you can do.

1. Set a timer for rest breaks between sets. A minute is a pretty good pace, but if you need to start it at two or even three minutes and gradually reduce the time.

2. Make adding weight to your main lifts dependant on completing all your sets within a predetermined time. Let's say you do 5x5, set a minimum time to achieve before you're allowed to add weight. I like 10 minutes, but you may need to start out slower and work with something like 20 minutes.

On the plus side, conditioning improves fast if you work at it. Way faster than strength, although you lose it faster too. You just have to embrace the suck. Gasping for air, sweating like crazy, feeling like you can't breathe or feeling like you want to throw up are part of it. Improving conditioning isn't something you can really do without at least some level of discomfort.

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#12

Post by Allentown » Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:30 am

Michiganian wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:11 am I like bikes well enough. I used to bike (outdoors) quite a bit. But in terms of calorie-burn-per-unit-time they're not the most efficient.

When I had gym memberships I used to split my 30-minute HIIT workouts between treadmill, elliptical trainer, and upright stationary bike. I got the most calorie-burn-per-unit-time on the treadmill and elliptical. (As reported by on-machine and wearable tech. And, yes: I realize the actual numbers were only SWAGs.)
Comparing machine calorie counts is worthless. The only use they have is for tracking personal performance across time on the same machine.

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#13

Post by Bliss » Wed Feb 15, 2023 6:04 am

Wanted to reply post by post but there's just so much good info that its going to be a massive post so please forgive me if i don't mention or quote your reply personally!

In particular, @Michiganian 's post made me realize that I'm not so hopeless as my post seems to imply? Or just that i had too high of an expectation what a "good stamina" should feel like?

In other words, stuff he mentions i can, and do, definitely do, walking, walking incline hills, skiing, decently short interset rest times etc...

Also really liked @MarkKO 's point about weight progression based on time cap per volume as opposed to SS-esque approach.

I guess my question boils down to:

What parameters should i monitor whilst XC-skiing (2/week) and Airdyne (2/week) (it should arrive these weekend!) and what should i aim for wrt exertion level/time/progression?

Would it be more prudent to start off with LISS cardio for either or both, mix in HIIT on either or both now, or later, or when, and what's a reasonable volume for each considering this is in addition to lifting 3/week (including some bro-work at the tail end of workouts)?

I'd rather keep each session short and easy to be more inline with knowledgeable health professionals' recommendations of "some" activity every day instead of the, again, SS approach of killing yourself 1 day and lying on the couch the next 2...

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#14

Post by MarkKO » Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:17 am

Bliss wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 6:04 am Wanted to reply post by post but there's just so much good info that its going to be a massive post so please forgive me if i don't mention or quote your reply personally!

In particular, @Michiganian 's post made me realize that I'm not so hopeless as my post seems to imply? Or just that i had too high of an expectation what a "good stamina" should feel like?

In other words, stuff he mentions i can, and do, definitely do, walking, walking incline hills, skiing, decently short interset rest times etc...

Also really liked @MarkKO 's point about weight progression based on time cap per volume as opposed to SS-esque approach.

I guess my question boils down to:

What parameters should i monitor whilst XC-skiing (2/week) and Airdyne (2/week) (it should arrive these weekend!) and what should i aim for wrt exertion level/time/progression?

Would it be more prudent to start off with LISS cardio for either or both, mix in HIIT on either or both now, or later, or when, and what's a reasonable volume for each considering this is in addition to lifting 3/week (including some bro-work at the tail end of workouts)?

I'd rather keep each session short and easy to be more inline with knowledgeable health professionals' recommendations of "some" activity every day instead of the, again, SS approach of killing yourself 1 day and lying on the couch the next 2...
Start with doing what you know you can recover from. Then gradually increase as you go.

Four sessions of conditioning may have some impact on your recovery for lifting weights initially, especially if your conditioning isn't too great. If you're OK with that, that should be fine because you'll adapt relatively quickly. It's just something to be aware of.

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#15

Post by Michiganian » Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:30 pm

Allentown wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:30 am Comparing machine calorie counts is worthless. The only use they have is for tracking personal performance across time on the same machine.
Which is one reason I added "I realize the actual numbers were only SWAGs." But I was also comparing numbers from wearables. Plus, though I didn't mention it, input from trainers.

I just went and read more than a half-dozen articles comparing the "calorie burn per unit time" for various cardio machines. The rankings seat-of-the-pants-averaged to:
  1. Elliptical Trainer
  2. Rower
  3. Treadmill (run)
  4. Stair-Climber
  5. Upright Stationary Bike
In the various articles, the top four would swap places among one another. Thus: "Seat-of-the-pants-average." I.e.: Elliptical more often came out #1 or #2, but, sometimes lower; rower more often #2 or #3, but, sometimes lower, etc.

Those rankings do jibe with what I measured, inaccurate though it was, and what trainers told me.

Obviously: Effort plays a role/ And I'm not claiming you can't get a good workout on an upright stationary bike.

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#16

Post by Allentown » Wed Feb 15, 2023 1:13 pm

No air bike/fan bike, or prowler. Data incomplete and thus irrelevant.

IMO, air bike is the single best piece of cardio equipment. Works decently well for LISS, absolutely brutal for HIIT. I prefer incline treadmill walks for LISS, or slow runs, and sometimes higher intensity sprints for HIIT, kind of like what @Hardartery said- being on your feet and moving is pretty basic. But nothing I've done compares to max effort sprints on the Echo.

Anyways, since OP is getting an Airdyne, one LISS (30 min, RPE6 elevated breathing but able to talk) and one HIIT session (pick your interval times and amounts, probably 30 second max for the sprint portion) is probably pretty good

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#17

Post by mbasic » Wed Feb 15, 2023 1:39 pm

Allentown wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 1:13 pm No air bike/fan bike, or prowler. Data incomplete and thus irrelevant.

IMO, air bike is the single best piece of cardio equipment. Works decently well for LISS, absolutely brutal for HIIT. I prefer incline treadmill walks for LISS, or slow runs, and sometimes higher intensity sprints for HIIT, kind of like what @Hardartery said- being on your feet and moving is pretty basic. But nothing I've done compares to max effort sprints on the Echo.

Anyways, since OP is getting an Airdyne, one LISS (30 min, RPE6 elevated breathing but able to talk) and one HIIT session (pick your interval times and amounts, probably 30 second max for the sprint portion) is probably pretty good
+1^

I used to think the prowler was the shizzle for HIIT WOs, but airbike is superior IMO ... easier setup logistically. More tired. More pain. Uses arms too.

Inclined treadmill walks are great for LISS. Don't bother my joints or back. Can watch a TV, talk, and/or listen to podcasts.

Back to Airdyne: I did/do 20-30 sec full sprint, hard as possible. 1:30-1:40 rest; easy pedal; or get off bike and walk around and feel sorry for one's self. Basically, 2 min intervals, up to 30 sec work, remainder rest/slow .... at another 2 min interval, start again. If I start up cardio again from detrained state....maybe only 4 rounds of that. 8-9 max. I wanna puke sometimes (never have tho).

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#18

Post by Allentown » Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:02 pm

Doing 20s::140s for 10 rounds right now. Anecdotally, it's much harder when the garage is sub-20 degrees than it is when the garage is >40.

Occasionally, I die around the 3rd round.

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#19

Post by SSJBartSimpson » Tue Feb 21, 2023 4:45 pm

Bliss wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:45 am :( time has come to address this issue.

I'm not getting any younger or any less-fat (yet), and as long as i can remember (5-6 years old +), I've always struggled at running, playing sports, bike riding etc...

What I'd generally call "weak stamina".

So i would get out of breath really quickly, sweat crazily, start spitting like mad when i pushed myself, ultimately having to lower the intensity and eventually stop to catch a breath.

This applies what feels like equally bad to what would be considered LISS, HIIT or anything in between.

Even when lifting this is getting unpleasant.

Currently I have restarted lifting in an LP/HLM - type manner after a 3.5 year hiatus (3/week), and taken an interest in classic cross-country (Nordic) skiing on the weekends.

Going to order a Shwinn Airdyne AD8 this week and looking to implement that the remaining 2/week between lifting days.

Can you guys/gals give some pointers where to even start?

Any help greatly appreciated!

Run With Hal worked wonders for me. Brought me down from 33 min 5k to 27 min in a few months. He has free programs, but you can pay for customized program as well (honestly, I don't it really matters but psychologically I'm way more compliant to the paid program).
https://www.halhigdon.com/

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Re: Information for total cardio noob (GPP).

#20

Post by Allentown » Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:48 am

Did a HIIT session on the treadmill today instead of the Echo. Much easier!

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