Powerbuilding program I'm thinking of running

[CaptainAwesome]

Just looking for some thoughts here. My background to this point has mostly focused specifically in the "big four" lifts. Starting Strength, Texas Method, Heavy/Light and such. I did get bigger doing them, but I want to explore what I can do with something that includes both the strength work on the "main" lifts, and the added hypertrophy stuff for more volume/reps. The aim is to try and design this workout to be something I can comfortably complete in less than 90 minutes while training with my fiancee in a crowded gym.

Monday
Bench press
Press hypertrophy movement
Horizontal pull
Triceps Isolation
Shoulder Isolation (maybe)

Tuesday
Squat
Deadlift hypertrophy movement
Hamstring isolation
Ab Work

Thursday
Press
Bench hypertrophy movement
Vertical Pull
Biceps Isolation
Wrist isolation (maybe)

Friday
Deadlift
Squat hypertrophy movement
Quadriceps Isolation
Calf Isolation
More Ab Work (maybe)

The first exercise of the workout will be done starting at a 5x5 with an RPE of roughly 6-7. Weight jumps each week will be on the higher side until they hit RPE 8, then when they hit 9-10 I'll start to taper to sets of 3, and then to singles. Eventually I'll do one heavy single attempt, and depending on how quick this all took, either go back and start over with 5x5s at 70% of the top single, or move on to a weekly wave-loading scheme of 5s, 3s, and 1s. The exception will probably be deadlifts for a single set of 5, since I find squatting and deadlifting can really fuck with my postural back muscles if too much volume is involved.

The second exercise is going to be a close relative of one of the big lifts, usually with a unique advantage that it has over the main lift for hypertrophy purposes. On the upper body days, there will also be upper body pulling movements. Horizontal pulls will basically be rows, vertical pulls are pulldowns. Isolation movements will probably done as rest-pause type work.

Things I am thinking I might adjust once I start doing this are largely on the "lower body" focused days. For the bench day I have all the pressing assistance stuff, and-vice versa. This is because I've found I can get away with hitting all those muscles hard like that twice in a week of training. This might not be so with the squat and deadlift. In fact, it could very well get to the point I need to only do one of these lifts heavy in a week. If that's case, I MIGHT try to add more deadlift sets on the weeks I deadlift heavy, but the added assistance work might make that unnecessary.

[5hout]

Specific: I would swap tricep hypertrophy to Thursday (moving biceps to Monday) and drop Calf isolation for some form of pec focused training. I'm stealing from Hanley here (I think) but people miss out on pec stuff. I've def done this myself and am pretty sure that if I want to grow my bench and size what I need is pecs and rows, not benching/triceps (knowledge of course does not mean I'm doing this). If by bench hypertrophy you mean pecs, then I'd still do the swap and just blast your tris and pecs on Thursday.

What's your goal? This reads very much as "chasing every chicken at once", which will work for a while and can be fun, but if you have an actual specific thing you want you might be better off paying/using a free program that goes towards that 1 goal and then kludging in a secondary goal.

Other specific question: Why pressing? If your goal is big shoulders and you don't care about OHP #s then I'd say more hypertrophy/general shoulder/upper back stuff is probably a better use of your time. Only press is you want big OHP seems to be the consensus wisdom from smarties these days. I never understood it until I had some recent shoulder issues where I could ended up being able to do every lift/movement, except for OHP. The stress/reward (if OHP #s aren't a goal) might not be worth it.

[CaptainAwesome]

Specific: I would swap tricep hypertrophy to Thursday (moving biceps to Monday) and drop Calf isolation for some form of pec focused training. I'm stealing from Hanley here (I think) but people miss out on pec stuff. I've def done this myself and am pretty sure that if I want to grow my bench and size what I need is pecs and rows, not benching/triceps (knowledge of course does not mean I'm doing this). If by bench hypertrophy you mean pecs, then I'd still do the swap and just blast your tris and pecs on Thursday.

What's your goal? This reads very much as "chasing every chicken at once", which will work for a while and can be fun, but if you have an actual specific thing you want you might be better off paying/using a free program that goes towards that 1 goal and then kludging in a secondary goal.

Other specific question: Why pressing? If your goal is big shoulders and you don't care about OHP #s then I'd say more hypertrophy/general shoulder/upper back stuff is probably a better use of your time. Only press is you want big OHP seems to be the consensus wisdom from smarties these days. I never understood it until I had some recent shoulder issues where I could ended up being able to do every lift/movement, except for OHP. The stress/reward (if OHP #s aren't a goal) might not be worth it.

I want to be strong in general and I like increasing those four lifts. Other than that my goal is to experiment and see if there's value in adding in more of the bodybuilding type stuff that I haven't had a big focus on prior. There seems to be this idea going around now that utilizing them brings some unique advantage to overall strength, so I am investigating. "Bench Hypertrophy" is likely going to be a dumbbell incline press to start with. I like that movement and it's blown my pecs up in the past, in an area where the regular bench doesn't hit so great. It also seemed to carry over to the regular bench press. Funny enough, I am one of those people who's gotten chest growth out of the barbell flat bench. It's probably because of my proportions. Even with as big an arch as I can manage I can't really "game" the exercise to create a substantially shorter range of motion.

The biceps and triceps work are interchangeable, I just don't like working them both on the same day. I currently am using a program that does that, and I find the one that gets all pumped up first fucks with the ability of the other one to contract well.

I can't say the overhead press never did anything for my shoulders, it has in the past. I think the hip-pop type stuff might reduce its effectiveness in that regard, again based on experience. I'm not hearing any "it doesn't make your shoulders grow" stuff though, mostly the opposite. A lot of people with big shoulders seem to credit a strong strict standing or seated press as a crucial component. I HAVE seen a lot of powerlifters saying they omit it as assistance for the bench because they don't find it really improves it, which is probably true.

[5hout]

I'm not hearing any "it doesn't make your shoulders grow" stuff though, mostly the opposite. A lot of people with big shoulders seem to credit a strong strict standing or seated press as a crucial component. I HAVE seen a lot of powerlifters saying they omit it as assistance for the bench because they don't find it really improves it, which is probably true.

I think the concern is more that, especially at useful weights, it's hard on the shoulders. You could be doing a bunch of machine work, incline dumbbell/bar stuff, without risking rotator cuff issues. I'm not saying don't do it, but be on the lookout for shoulder pain/tendinitis. From my understanding pressing at (say) an 70 or 80 degree angle gets you almost the same benefit, but lets the joint move freely without as much aggravation/risk of tendinitis/bursitis/vague rotator cuff stuff. All things are cost benefits and tradeoffs, but since it sounds like you want the # at least somewhat I'd say full steam ahead. Also, strong agreement that doing anything with your hips is sacrificing the entire point to the movement pattern as a strength builder or strength demonstrator (if that's what you were saying with part of your statement).

[ChasingCurls69]

This mostly seems like 4 day Texas Method with bodybuilding attached, so while the general layout looks good, I think the main work quickly leaves a productive range and we don't know the sets x reps x RPE/% of the rest.

[mgil]

This mostly seems like 4 day Texas Method with bodybuilding attached, so while the general layout looks good, I think the main work quickly leaves a productive range and we don't know the sets x reps x RPE/% of the rest.

This.

And I have grown to dislike the term “powerbuilding”. It’s just hypertrophy focused programming using minimal movements, primarily barbells.

So, I’d just say to run a few hypertrophy blocks and then taper into a more “PL” style program for strength display. Dudes like Eddy Coan did this for years.

If you can access machines, do machine work. Spell out what you have in mind for isolation work.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

One problem that you might run into with the main lifts scheme (do sets of 5 and add weight until you fail, then switch to sets of 3 etc) is that the weeks where you get to an RPE 10 might cause more fatigue than intended. Also if maximal strength is one of the goals, you don't get to practice your maximal strength very often.

An alternative, you could do a 1@8 and follow by some backoff work at a given percentage of the e1RM of the day (like 15 reps at 80%e1RM or whatever), and then progress the single each week.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

This mostly seems like 4 day Texas Method with bodybuilding attached, so while the general layout looks good, I think the main work quickly leaves a productive range and we don't know the sets x reps x RPE/% of the rest.

This.

And I have grown to dislike the term “powerbuilding”. It’s just hypertrophy focused programming using minimal movements, primarily barbells.

So, I’d just say to run a few hypertrophy blocks and then taper into a more “PL” style program for strength display. Dudes like Eddy Coan did this for years.

If you can access machines, do machine work. Spell out what you have in mind for isolation work.

I think the main problem of the term "powerbuilding" is that it gives the impression that people who do this are interested in both powrlifting (1RM in the S/B/D on the same day on a platform) and bodybuilding (stepping on stage in a mankini at 5% beodyfat) when they are usually not interested in either.

Usually people who are "powerbuilders" in fact are just meatheads (like me !). A better term for "powerbuilding" would be "lifting weights".

[ChasingCurls69]

This mostly seems like 4 day Texas Method with bodybuilding attached, so while the general layout looks good, I think the main work quickly leaves a productive range and we don't know the sets x reps x RPE/% of the rest.

This.

And I have grown to dislike the term “powerbuilding”. It’s just hypertrophy focused programming using minimal movements, primarily barbells.

So, I’d just say to run a few hypertrophy blocks and then taper into a more “PL” style program for strength display. Dudes like Eddy Coan did this for years.

If you can access machines, do machine work. Spell out what you have in mind for isolation work.

Agreed. I also like Cheeki's approach of a top set and low % back-offs to get productive strength work in while biasing machines and Not Barbell stuff. Working hard on simple movements for the high rep+high RPEs is a lifechanger for training enjoyment.

[mgil]

This mostly seems like 4 day Texas Method with bodybuilding attached, so while the general layout looks good, I think the main work quickly leaves a productive range and we don't know the sets x reps x RPE/% of the rest.

This.

And I have grown to dislike the term “powerbuilding”. It’s just hypertrophy focused programming using minimal movements, primarily barbells.

So, I’d just say to run a few hypertrophy blocks and then taper into a more “PL” style program for strength display. Dudes like Eddy Coan did this for years.

If you can access machines, do machine work. Spell out what you have in mind for isolation work.

I think the main problem of the term "powerbuilding" is that it gives the impression that people who do this are interested in both powrlifting (1RM in the S/B/D on the same day on a platform) and bodybuilding (stepping on stage in a mankini at 5% beodyfat) when they are usually not interested in either.

Usually people who are "powerbuilders" in fact are just meatheads (like me !). A better term for "powerbuilding" would be "lifting weights".

I suspect that the term comes from guys that once called bodybuilding/hypertrophy schemes “gay” and needed something more #ruffntuff to sell programs.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

This mostly seems like 4 day Texas Method with bodybuilding attached, so while the general layout looks good, I think the main work quickly leaves a productive range and we don't know the sets x reps x RPE/% of the rest.

This.

And I have grown to dislike the term “powerbuilding”. It’s just hypertrophy focused programming using minimal movements, primarily barbells.

So, I’d just say to run a few hypertrophy blocks and then taper into a more “PL” style program for strength display. Dudes like Eddy Coan did this for years.

If you can access machines, do machine work. Spell out what you have in mind for isolation work.

I think the main problem of the term "powerbuilding" is that it gives the impression that people who do this are interested in both powrlifting (1RM in the S/B/D on the same day on a platform) and bodybuilding (stepping on stage in a mankini at 5% beodyfat) when they are usually not interested in either.

Usually people who are "powerbuilders" in fact are just meatheads (like me !). A better term for "powerbuilding" would be "lifting weights".

I suspect that the term comes from guys that once called bodybuilding/hypertrophy schemes “gay” and needed something more #ruffntuff to sell programs.

Wait you mean sexual orientation and programming styles are not correlated ? This goes against everything I've learnt so far. I'm confused now.

[Allentown]

Needs more conditioning.

[augeleven]

When training in a concurrent style (building two or more domains at once), it’s important to remember that strength is a skill, not a muscle builder. Practicing strength as a skill looks like low rep ranges and easyish RPEs (@6-8ish) for enough sets to practice, but not enough to tax you. This is then followed up with maybe a closely related supplemental exercise, then your “bodybuilding stuff”.

If you want to stay within arms reach of the $t$t philosophy of training, Andy Baker has some interesting articles on “powerbuilding”. His basic approach seems to be 3 sets of 8/5/2 of the main, 3-5 sets of 8-12 with the supplemental, and a couple of isolation exercises.

His blog has a bunch of great articles on concurrent and conjugate training:
https://www.andybaker.com/power-buildin ... tring-day/

[KrustyKrab65]

Adding to @augeleven's post, Baker has a pretty fun "Powerbuilding" program. https://www.andybaker.com/product/the-k ... -building/
It's $45.00. I enjoyed it as it allows you to pick and rotate exercises in and out over time. Sounds alot like what you're looking for...good luck!

[CaptainAwesome]

This mostly seems like 4 day Texas Method with bodybuilding attached, so while the general layout looks good, I think the main work quickly leaves a productive range and we don't know the sets x reps x RPE/% of the rest.

4 day texas method generally involves both volume and intensity work. This does not really include both of those things in any session for the main lifts. It's more like they kind of temporarily migrate into intensity work over time, then back to volume again once that's squeezed out. The "hypertrophy" version of the big movement is not going to just be the big movement again. "Bench hypertrophy" will be things like dumbbell bench and chest pressing machines. It's kept vague because it's open to a lot of tweaking and exercise rotation, since rotating exercises when they get hung up seems to be a hallmark of hypertrophy programming. The isolations will probably be done with absolute failure as a target intensity. Others will probably be "technical failure" unless they're on a machine. Might push harder than that when it comes time to keep pushing for more reps to progress, though. I haven't found any of those movements to really be very punishing in terms of reaching failure quite like the big barbell ones can.

One problem that you might run into with the main lifts scheme (do sets of 5 and add weight until you fail, then switch to sets of 3 etc) is that the weeks where you get to an RPE 10 might cause more fatigue than intended. Also if maximal strength is one of the goals, you don't get to practice your maximal strength very often.

An alternative, you could do a 1@8 and follow by some backoff work at a given percentage of the e1RM of the day (like 15 reps at 80%e1RM or whatever), and then progress the single each week.

I err on the side of caution with things like that. Usually I treat "I'm not sure if I could've done another one" on the final set as an RPE 10 for the purposes of programming changes. I don't rate the sets before it. But different lifts I treat in different ways. I find I can get away with pushing a little closer to it on the overhead press, and I need to be much more cautious when it comes to squats and deadlifts. I very often treat "failure" for those as a "technical failure" type standard, rather than the absolute kind. OHP I find I can grind a little session after session without problems arising. Bench sort of occupies a middle ground. These things all might very well change as I can work with heavier weights. Maybe if/when my overhead pressing passes into the 200s I'll have to be a bit more safe with it, for example.

I think the concern is more that, especially at useful weights, it's hard on the shoulders. You could be doing a bunch of machine work, incline dumbbell/bar stuff, without risking rotator cuff issues. I'm not saying don't do it, but be on the lookout for shoulder pain/tendinitis. From my understanding pressing at (say) an 70 or 80 degree angle gets you almost the same benefit, but lets the joint move freely without as much aggravation/risk of tendinitis/bursitis/vague rotator cuff stuff. All things are cost benefits and tradeoffs, but since it sounds like you want the # at least somewhat I'd say full steam ahead. Also, strong agreement that doing anything with your hips is sacrificing the entire point to the movement pattern as a strength builder or strength demonstrator (if that's what you were saying with part of your statement).

I've never really had those issues from overhead pressing a barbell, unless I was trying to do it from behind the neck and/or with a wide grip.

I suspect that the term comes from guys that once called bodybuilding/hypertrophy schemes “gay” and needed something more #ruffntuff to sell programs.

Um...I just wanted a label that marked it as a program that was a large barbell lift followed by a bunch of hypertrophy work. That seems to be called "powerbuilding" by most people. I've seen it called "old school powerlifting" by others, since it seems there are a bunch of "Classic" powerlifters who trained like that. There wasn't really some kind of strange emotional baggage involved in the decision.

Adding to @augeleven's post, Baker has a pretty fun "Powerbuilding" program. https://www.andybaker.com/product/the-k ... -building/
It's $45.00. I enjoyed it as it allows you to pick and rotate exercises in and out over time. Sounds alot like what you're looking for...good luck!

I didn't have a lot of interest in picking up that one, as it specifies it's a 5-day program. That's a lot of days to commit to lifting for me. 4 is usually my preference. I did base a lot of the layout off of Baker's 4-day hypertrophy guide, which is a small book in and of itself. The way I'm laying this out is based a lot on what I got out of that PDF. One of the "high volume" options for a large exercise at the beginning of the workout is a 5x5 barbell lift. So I figured something like that here would probably be okay. The main difference seems to be he doesn't like including the conventional deadlift at all in this sort of program, and for this he also seems to prefer high bar to low bar squatting.

[dw]

I think the term is completely fine. The distinction is between programs with no SBD strength emphasis and programs with that exclusively.

The only point I would make against it, not that I care, is that powerbuilding and powerlifting eventually become identical at some point of advancement because nobody can get by on pure SBD alone.

[KOTJ]

Monday
Bench press
Press hypertrophy movement
Horizontal pull
Triceps Isolation
Shoulder Isolation (maybe)

Tuesday
Squat
Deadlift hypertrophy movement
Hamstring isolation
Ab Work

Thursday
Press
Bench hypertrophy movement
Vertical Pull
Biceps Isolation
Wrist isolation (maybe)

Friday
Deadlift
Squat hypertrophy movement
Quadriceps Isolation
Calf Isolation
More Ab Work (maybe)
_______________________________________________________________

These are all incredibly vague, and the lift priority for each day doesn't make sense for hypertrophy and the targeted muscles groups.

Stuff "deadlift hypertrophy" doesn't make sense at all...really, "bench and squat hypertrophy" too.

Generally, you'd want to limit or have zero significant systemic fatigue before you complete hypertrophy work for certain muscle groups.

Classic example would be doing leg curls before quad focused squats (hack or high bar) or leg press.

You can also do arm work before legs, since it won't be systemically fatiguing. You'll get the most bang for your buck for arms, and virtually zero fatigue affecting the leg workout.

For "powerbuilding", I just look at it as a desire to increase strength or maintain strength, while focusing on aesthetics.

Also, you are doing pulls every single workout. I'd change that up. Not sure if you have an aesthetic in mind for abs and upper body, but if you do, you may not want to do direct work, or do it sparingly.

[ChasingCurls69]

This mostly seems like 4 day Texas Method with bodybuilding attached, so while the general layout looks good, I think the main work quickly leaves a productive range and we don't know the sets x reps x RPE/% of the rest.

4 day texas method generally involves both volume and intensity work. This does not really include both of those things in any session for the main lifts. It's more like they kind of temporarily migrate into intensity work over time, then back to volume again once that's squeezed out. The "hypertrophy" version of the big movement is not going to just be the big movement again. "Bench hypertrophy" will be things like dumbbell bench and chest pressing machines. It's kept vague because it's open to a lot of tweaking and exercise rotation, since rotating exercises when they get hung up seems to be a hallmark of hypertrophy programming. The isolations will probably be done with absolute failure as a target intensity. Others will probably be "technical failure" unless they're on a machine. Might push harder than that when it comes time to keep pushing for more reps to progress, though. I haven't found any of those movements to really be very punishing in terms of reaching failure quite like the big barbell ones can.

I am not using a particularly rigid definition of Texas Method, but yes instead of volume/intensity it starts off volume/hypertrophy (which I read as volume), and shifts to intensity/volume. But it.uses the same rough set up as Texas Method where you are basically doing linear periodization and adding weight each week until it gets too difficult, then dropping volume and repeating until a longer cycle is finished.

I would recommend picking the movements of your first block and writing them out to give us a better idea, but otherwise I think that pushing the main lift volume that heavy and then tapering off to very little volume is less productive than something with lower avg intensity and a top set, or ramping sets up to a certain RPE. I also think this format is generally what prevents people from tolerating more deadlift volume.