Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

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CaptainAwesome
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Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#1

Post by CaptainAwesome » Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:37 pm

Anyone ever tried programming like this? I've seen it brought up in some places by some lifters, others recommending against it. As per the usual with training resources, somehow this programming is both "useful for guys not on steroids" and "too infrequent for guys not on steroids". So of course, I prefer anecdotes of people with actual experience with it.
Last edited by CaptainAwesome on Wed Jan 18, 2023 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#2

Post by houzi » Wed Jan 18, 2023 5:12 pm

Last year I had good success with my deadlift by only pushing hard on it every other week. I would do 4 week blocks and so for deadlift top sets it might look like:
wk1: 81% x3
wk2: 84% xAMRAP until @9
wk3: 86% x3
Wk4: 89% xAMRAP until @9 or new 3RM
I didnt alternate my squats though, instead i could usually push those each week, so perhaps it doesnt really answer your question.

However currently I am "sort of" alternating heavier squats and deadlifts. Im using an alternating scheme, so I have a week A and a week B, with each week having a comparitively heavier and lighter variation. I generally push hard on each movement each week since the "lighter" variations are light due to being a self limiting variation (my high bar is much weaker than my low bar, for example), though i try to be conservative here and there to manage fatigue.
Week A has Pause Squats (heavier) and Deficit Deadlifts (lighter)
Week B has High Bar Squats (lighter) and Block Pulls (heavier).

Not sure if this is what youre looking for, but maybe it helps. Fairly certain I saw @MarkKO doing something alternating with his Squats and DL, if you take a look in his training log

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#3

Post by ChasingCurls69 » Wed Jan 18, 2023 5:34 pm

CaptainAwesome wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:37 pm Anyone ever tried programming like this? I've seen it brought up in some places by some lifters, others recommending against it. As per the usual with training resources, somehow this programming is both "only useful for guys on steroids" and "too infrequent for guys not on steroids". So of course, I prefer anecdotes of people with actual experience with it.
I do this as a compromise for the PL classes that I teach at a CF gym. The full program is 3 days, but lots of people will only do 2 days at the main location they attend, so Day 1 will be heavy squat or DL and then Day 2 will be moderate reps+heavier on a variation of the opposite lift, and then high reps for a top set on a variation of the Day 1 lift. For this block it looks like:

Day 1: Squat 5@6, 5@7, 5@8 x2 sets, Platz Squat 15@8, same load x10.

Day 2: Paused DL 6@6, 6@7, same load x4x3
High Bar Squat 8@7

Next week is Day 1: DL 5@6, 5@7, 5@8 x2 sets, RDLs x15@8

Day 2: 3ct Paused High Bar 6@6, 6@7, same load x4x3
2ct Paused DL 8@7

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#4

Post by Hardartery » Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:00 pm

CaptainAwesome wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:37 pm Anyone ever tried programming like this? I've seen it brought up in some places by some lifters, others recommending against it. As per the usual with training resources, somehow this programming is both "useful for guys not on steroids" and "too infrequent for guys not on steroids". So of course, I prefer anecdotes of people with actual experience with it.
It is fairly well accepted that the more advanced the lifter is and/or the higher the %1RM the less frequency you can tolerate. I am currently Deadlifting roughly every 2 weeks, trying to hit it even every week is a lot honestly. I am squatting every week, the squats are not all that draining. I think there is great merit in the idea of running some light work, especially in the form of some kind of speed work, for any compound movement. I would not alternate weeks of it though. I would maybe do the light work every week and also go for a heavy session every 10 days or 2 weeks, or run a block of high RPE/%1RM on one lift at a time.
In my case, I am trying to rebuild my squat now that i have squat rack access again. My glutes aren't activating correctly so the squats are rehabbing that with the real goal being a big DL. Unless you're training for an actual PL meet with an end date in concrete there is little overall value in trying to push both at the same time.

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#5

Post by Clearwater47 » Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:50 pm

There's an element of individuality to this that makes it impossible to tell you for sure what will be best for you. Of course that's true of pretty much anything programming related, so we'll disregard that aspect to a certain degree.
Can it work? Yes. Will it work for you? Try it and find out - that's really the only way to know for sure.

Like others have done, I can offer some personal experiences that may or may not be useful for you. I tried pushing both simultaneously for a long time and it never worked very well at all. My best luck with doing that was with doing pretty much exactly what Hardartery mentioned, combining light or speed work with heavier work in a given week, with each on their own day. I made decent progress doing this.

Where I really started seeing exponential progress though was when I completely stopped trying to progress everything at once and instead focused entirely on 1 upper body and 1 lower body movement (squat OR dead / bench OR press). This approach allowed me to perform and recover from more volume, which resulted in greater progress on the 2 lifts I was focusing on. Of course I have the advantage of not training for competitions so I can afford to do that. I realize this is probably less than optimal for a person that's competing. And also it's absolutely not necessary for most people, it's just something that I've found works for me.

As I mentioned at the beginning, the bottom line is that the only way to really know the answer is to experiment with it and see what happens. And I probably should've started with this, but why are you asking this question? I assume you're not progressing the way to want to be? Or are you progressing but feeling worn down?
Last edited by Clearwater47 on Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#6

Post by dw » Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:00 pm

Agree with @Clearwater47. Everything *can* work as long as it's not too much or too little.

I think you're describing wave loading which is definitely a thing.

Imo the basic theory of how to make strength or hypertrophy gains or both is very simple. You just have to fill in the details by experimentation.

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#7

Post by MarkKO » Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:43 am

houzi wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 5:12 pm Last year I had good success with my deadlift by only pushing hard on it every other week. I would do 4 week blocks and so for deadlift top sets it might look like:
wk1: 81% x3
wk2: 84% xAMRAP until @9
wk3: 86% x3
Wk4: 89% xAMRAP until @9 or new 3RM
I didnt alternate my squats though, instead i could usually push those each week, so perhaps it doesnt really answer your question.

However currently I am "sort of" alternating heavier squats and deadlifts. Im using an alternating scheme, so I have a week A and a week B, with each week having a comparitively heavier and lighter variation. I generally push hard on each movement each week since the "lighter" variations are light due to being a self limiting variation (my high bar is much weaker than my low bar, for example), though i try to be conservative here and there to manage fatigue.
Week A has Pause Squats (heavier) and Deficit Deadlifts (lighter)
Week B has High Bar Squats (lighter) and Block Pulls (heavier).

Not sure if this is what youre looking for, but maybe it helps. Fairly certain I saw MarkKO doing something alternating with his Squats and DL, if you take a look in his training log
I've never really alternated heavy and light squats and DL. I just would set things up so that if I wasn't training them the same way in a week.

For example, if I had a top triple around 85% followed by 5x5 at around 60-70% for squats, my deadlift that week would be 4x2 followed by an AMRAP around 75%. The loads are approximate because I use time and rep benchmarks to determine when I add load.

That was a fair while ago now, when I was training four days a week. I've been training three days a week for about a year now.

I only have one lower body day in that lot, so I squat and deadlift the same day and squat always comes first. Deadlift is just there to practice the exercise.

I did consider alternating which came first week to week and I may in the future but I haven't yet. I've generally found that I get more out of squatting that deadlifting in the sense that my deadlift doesn't suffer as much if I don't push it as much. Although, I have to say that relegating my deadlift to practice status certainly doesn't seem to have done it any favours in the last year although it's hard to say for sure.

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#8

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:02 am

Isn't alternating between heavy squat and deadlifts every other week the standard programming for Westside lifters ?

If we judge programming by results rather than theoretical discussions, this definitely "works".

In this forum there are several people like @Hamburgerfan who trains like that, maybe check out his training log if you haven't already. Also he made this thread that might interest you, discussing programming he used to get to a 600 lbs deadlift viewtopic.php?t=1108

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#9

Post by CaptainAwesome » Thu Jan 19, 2023 5:36 am

Clearwater47 wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:50 pm As I mentioned at the beginning, the bottom line is that the only way to really know the answer is to experiment with it and see what happens. And I probably should've started with this, but why are you asking this question? I assume you're not progressing the way to want to be? Or are you progressing but feeling worn down?
Going over old training data. Right now I'm actually not doing conventional deadlifts or low bar squats at all. But I always like to plan ahead for what I'm going to do next. I had a spot where I was doing lighter box squats instead of squats because I was getting really bad pain in my left knee, and during that time deadlifting suddenly went really well. I also have had issues with squats having very inconsistent performance and weird regressions. One week I'll have a great squat workout, the next it'll fall way short of that. Usually the only thing between these sessions that I could see causing an issue would be a session of heavy deadlifts and light (-20% in weight) squats. So this is why I wonder if the two could be eating into each other, and I was curious if anyone else had had success spacing out heavy sessions for the two like that, and how they went about doing it.

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#10

Post by Hardartery » Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:09 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:02 am Isn't alternating between heavy squat and deadlifts every other week the standard programming for Westside lifters ?

If we judge programming by results rather than theoretical discussions, this definitely "works".

In this forum there are several people like @Hamburgerfan who trains like that, maybe check out his training log if you haven't already. Also he made this thread that might interest you, discussing programming he used to get to a 600 lbs deadlift viewtopic.php?t=1108
No, that's not Westside programming. At all. The standard is a max lift in some sort of Squat variation followed by accessory work and then a separate speed day which involves a very low load cranked at maximum velocity to elicit neural recruitment. Deadlifts were actually unusual at all in normal training, and so is normal straight bar squatting in training. A very different concept than waves.

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#11

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:19 am

Hardartery wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:09 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:02 am Isn't alternating between heavy squat and deadlifts every other week the standard programming for Westside lifters ?

If we judge programming by results rather than theoretical discussions, this definitely "works".

In this forum there are several people like @Hamburgerfan who trains like that, maybe check out his training log if you haven't already. Also he made this thread that might interest you, discussing programming he used to get to a 600 lbs deadlift viewtopic.php?t=1108
No, that's not Westside programming. At all. The standard is a max lift in some sort of Squat variation followed by accessory work and then a separate speed day which involves a very low load cranked at maximum velocity to elicit neural recruitment. Deadlifts were actually unusual at all in normal training, and so is normal straight bar squatting in training. A very different concept than waves.
Is that right ? I thought that for their max effort lower body day they'd pick either a squat or a deadlift or a good morning variation (usually not the comp lift) and go heavy on it. That'd result in only going heavy on squat or deads at most once a week. I never trained in that style so I'm probably mistaken.

I remember reading this when I was curious about how they train https://www.westside-barbell.com/blogs/ ... alkthrough

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#12

Post by Clearwater47 » Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:23 am

CaptainAwesome wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 5:36 amGoing over old training data. Right now I'm actually not doing conventional deadlifts or low bar squats at all. But I always like to plan ahead for what I'm going to do next. I had a spot where I was doing lighter box squats instead of squats because I was getting really bad pain in my left knee, and during that time deadlifting suddenly went really well. I also have had issues with squats having very inconsistent performance and weird regressions. One week I'll have a great squat workout, the next it'll fall way short of that. Usually the only thing between these sessions that I could see causing an issue would be a session of heavy deadlifts and light (-20% in weight) squats. So this is why I wonder if the two could be eating into each other, and I was curious if anyone else had had success spacing out heavy sessions for the two like that, and how they went about doing it.
Gotcha. Yes, it's inevitable that they impact each other since they share the same prime movers. I would honestly just test out what you proposed in your first post. The comments you quoted regarding "useful for guys not on steroids" and "too infrequent for guys not on steroids" I would totally disregard. Different things work for different people and the appropriate way to find out how well it works for you is to try it. Worst case scenario is probably that you maintain your current strength level, so there's really not much to lose. After a month or two of trying this you'll be better informed (through first hand experience) about how you personally react to this approach. In the long run this will be valuable information.

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#13

Post by Hardartery » Thu Jan 19, 2023 8:01 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:19 am
Hardartery wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:09 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:02 am Isn't alternating between heavy squat and deadlifts every other week the standard programming for Westside lifters ?

If we judge programming by results rather than theoretical discussions, this definitely "works".

In this forum there are several people like @Hamburgerfan who trains like that, maybe check out his training log if you haven't already. Also he made this thread that might interest you, discussing programming he used to get to a 600 lbs deadlift viewtopic.php?t=1108
No, that's not Westside programming. At all. The standard is a max lift in some sort of Squat variation followed by accessory work and then a separate speed day which involves a very low load cranked at maximum velocity to elicit neural recruitment. Deadlifts were actually unusual at all in normal training, and so is normal straight bar squatting in training. A very different concept than waves.
Is that right ? I thought that for their max effort lower body day they'd pick either a squat or a deadlift or a good morning variation (usually not the comp lift) and go heavy on it. That'd result in only going heavy on squat or deads at most once a week. I never trained in that style so I'm probably mistaken.

I remember reading this when I was curious about how they train https://www.westside-barbell.com/blogs/ ... alkthrough
I have trained with and around a lot of Westside/Conjugate adherents, and read a lot about it and listened to all of the big names discussing it. The reality is that they almost never do Deadlifts, or what most people would consider a DL variation for max unless it's close to a meet and theyt want an idea of where the DL is at. The approach is to try and work the same muscles from different angles and leverages and then use the actual lift to do speed work to erfine technique in the specific neural recruitment pattern. The DL was really just along for the ride, it was generally considered to be benefitting from the same work as Squats. You'll notice a very distinct lack of discussion or demonstration of DL or DL variations in most of the Westide and Westside adherent videos, but you will invariably see Box Squats and the use of either bands or chains or both. The later stuff also features support gear most of the time but the early stuff was all Raw work for most of the training blocks.

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#14

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:03 am

Hardartery wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 8:01 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:19 am
Hardartery wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:09 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:02 am Isn't alternating between heavy squat and deadlifts every other week the standard programming for Westside lifters ?

If we judge programming by results rather than theoretical discussions, this definitely "works".

In this forum there are several people like @Hamburgerfan who trains like that, maybe check out his training log if you haven't already. Also he made this thread that might interest you, discussing programming he used to get to a 600 lbs deadlift viewtopic.php?t=1108
No, that's not Westside programming. At all. The standard is a max lift in some sort of Squat variation followed by accessory work and then a separate speed day which involves a very low load cranked at maximum velocity to elicit neural recruitment. Deadlifts were actually unusual at all in normal training, and so is normal straight bar squatting in training. A very different concept than waves.
Is that right ? I thought that for their max effort lower body day they'd pick either a squat or a deadlift or a good morning variation (usually not the comp lift) and go heavy on it. That'd result in only going heavy on squat or deads at most once a week. I never trained in that style so I'm probably mistaken.

I remember reading this when I was curious about how they train https://www.westside-barbell.com/blogs/ ... alkthrough
I have trained with and around a lot of Westside/Conjugate adherents, and read a lot about it and listened to all of the big names discussing it. The reality is that they almost never do Deadlifts, or what most people would consider a DL variation for max unless it's close to a meet and theyt want an idea of where the DL is at. The approach is to try and work the same muscles from different angles and leverages and then use the actual lift to do speed work to erfine technique in the specific neural recruitment pattern. The DL was really just along for the ride, it was generally considered to be benefitting from the same work as Squats. You'll notice a very distinct lack of discussion or demonstration of DL or DL variations in most of the Westide and Westside adherent videos, but you will invariably see Box Squats and the use of either bands or chains or both. The later stuff also features support gear most of the time but the early stuff was all Raw work for most of the training blocks.
I see. I didn't know that. Thanks for sharing your experience.

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#15

Post by CaptainAwesome » Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:15 pm

Clearwater47 wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:23 am The comments you quoted regarding "useful for guys not on steroids" and "too infrequent for guys not on steroids" I would totally disregard.
Of course I disregarded that. I was just making a humorous observation. I can't be the only one who has noticed many times encountering the same types of programming being described as "only works for guys on steroids" and "necessary for guys not on steroids to make progress" in different places.

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#16

Post by Hamburgerfan » Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:49 pm

Hardartery wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:09 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:02 am Isn't alternating between heavy squat and deadlifts every other week the standard programming for Westside lifters ?

If we judge programming by results rather than theoretical discussions, this definitely "works".

In this forum there are several people like @Hamburgerfan who trains like that, maybe check out his training log if you haven't already. Also he made this thread that might interest you, discussing programming he used to get to a 600 lbs deadlift viewtopic.php?t=1108
No, that's not Westside programming. At all. The standard is a max lift in some sort of Squat variation followed by accessory work and then a separate speed day which involves a very low load cranked at maximum velocity to elicit neural recruitment. Deadlifts were actually unusual at all in normal training, and so is normal straight bar squatting in training. A very different concept than waves.
Not sure if you're referring to "alternating between heavy squat and deadlifts every other week" or my training in particular, but I'd like to clarify that while westside/conjugate influenced stuff was the largest part of my training, I never had any special insight on what they did at the Westside gym and I don't believe that my training was identical to theirs. From what I understand, I did deadlift variations (usually modified ROM) a lot more frequently, and I never quite got the hang of max effort good mornings.

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#17

Post by Hanley » Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:29 pm

CaptainAwesome wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:15 pm
Clearwater47 wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:23 am The comments you quoted regarding "useful for guys not on steroids" and "too infrequent for guys not on steroids" I would totally disregard.
I can't be the only one who has noticed many times encountering the same types of programming being described as "only works for guys on steroids" and "necessary for guys not on steroids to make progress" in different places.
There are certainly programs that have a sort of rhythm of stress / deload that suggests they were designed with steroids as a variable.

CaptainAwesomeOnTren could handle volume loads at a given intensity that I would never assign to a natty lifter.

He could also progress using very low frequency (because he can build muscle watching television).

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#18

Post by 5hout » Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:11 am

Hamburgerfan wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:49 pm
Hardartery wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:09 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:02 am Isn't alternating between heavy squat and deadlifts every other week the standard programming for Westside lifters ?

If we judge programming by results rather than theoretical discussions, this definitely "works".

In this forum there are several people like @Hamburgerfan who trains like that, maybe check out his training log if you haven't already. Also he made this thread that might interest you, discussing programming he used to get to a 600 lbs deadlift viewtopic.php?t=1108
No, that's not Westside programming. At all. The standard is a max lift in some sort of Squat variation followed by accessory work and then a separate speed day which involves a very low load cranked at maximum velocity to elicit neural recruitment. Deadlifts were actually unusual at all in normal training, and so is normal straight bar squatting in training. A very different concept than waves.
Not sure if you're referring to "alternating between heavy squat and deadlifts every other week" or my training in particular, but I'd like to clarify that while westside/conjugate influenced stuff was the largest part of my training, I never had any special insight on what they did at the Westside gym and I don't believe that my training was identical to theirs. From what I understand, I did deadlift variations (usually modified ROM) a lot more frequently, and I never quite got the hang of max effort good mornings.
Can't find my headset, I know he talks about it at length (and on a podcast, his best format) in some of the long form podcasts but I can't find the right sections atm.

https://www.westside-barbell.com/blogs/ ... t-deadlift

https://www.westside-barbell.com/blogs/ ... ift-strong

If you're interested read the articles, but I've always felt (based on the articles/podcasts and no real world experience with Westside lifters) that the "we don't deadlift meme" was more of a hook to draw people in. The actual programming is like "we don't deadlift, we just work every one of the muscles 2 or 3 different ways and pull from around the floor a lot, but don't do the competition lift very often". Hey it's better advertising than GOMAD.

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#19

Post by James » Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:51 am

Andy Baker's KSC program alternates intensity day squats and deadlifts week to week. He seems to know what he's doing.

He also alternates ME squats and pulls in the way he sets up conjugate.

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Re: Alternating heavy squats and deadlifts every other week

#20

Post by Hardartery » Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:35 am

Hamburgerfan wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:49 pm
Hardartery wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:09 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:02 am Isn't alternating between heavy squat and deadlifts every other week the standard programming for Westside lifters ?

If we judge programming by results rather than theoretical discussions, this definitely "works".

In this forum there are several people like @Hamburgerfan who trains like that, maybe check out his training log if you haven't already. Also he made this thread that might interest you, discussing programming he used to get to a 600 lbs deadlift viewtopic.php?t=1108
No, that's not Westside programming. At all. The standard is a max lift in some sort of Squat variation followed by accessory work and then a separate speed day which involves a very low load cranked at maximum velocity to elicit neural recruitment. Deadlifts were actually unusual at all in normal training, and so is normal straight bar squatting in training. A very different concept than waves.
Not sure if you're referring to "alternating between heavy squat and deadlifts every other week" or my training in particular, but I'd like to clarify that while westside/conjugate influenced stuff was the largest part of my training, I never had any special insight on what they did at the Westside gym and I don't believe that my training was identical to theirs. From what I understand, I did deadlift variations (usually modified ROM) a lot more frequently, and I never quite got the hang of max effort good mornings.
Not a reference to your specific programming in particular, I didn't look at it so I can't comment on what it was or wasn't. Just what was stated pecifically in the comment.

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