Heart Rate: Do i even lift or is this cardio?

[Tommy1507]

I am sure i am not the only one who wears a wearable or something to track th HR while lifting.
Today I did the following workout:
Time: Activity
0-16: Warm Up: Rope jumping + mobility+ body weight exercises
16-39: Bench: 8x3x110kg (90 sec rest)
39-57: OHP 7x5x60kg (90 sec rest)
57-1:14: Seal Row 4x10x50kg, supersetted with elevated sets of 12-15 Push Ups (120 sec rest)
1:14-1:20: 5 minutes curls (50 reps)
In reality the rest is probably 15-sec longer.

I was surprised how high my HR is through the whole training and that my heart rate does not go below 120 anytime. That should count as cardio then.

upload a picture to google search
average heart rate: 132bpm, max: 162bpm
I also don’t feel totally out of breath while training and don’t really think I need longer rest intervals.
I also have enough energy to scroll through Instagram, which for some people indicates that I don’t train hard enough. But i remember Jordan or someone said, that after a heavy set of squats his HR will be down to 80 after 2-3 minutes. That seems crazy.

So how is your heart rate while lifting?

(Optical sensors don’t track lifting very well. But I checked my HR several times manually and it was always spot on. There is always a little delay, but that does not matter in this case. For running I anyways wanted to buy and chest sensor, so I will wear that next time.)

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

I think it was @MarkKO who mentioned that if you lift with enough density, then your weight training will also serve as conditioning/cardio. I think this is a good illustration.

Also, what is your resting heart rate ?

[Tommy1507]

I think it was @MarkKO who mentioned that if you lift with enough density, then your weight training will also serve as conditioning/cardio. I think this is a good illustration.

Also, what is your resting heart rate ?

When i am relaxed in the evening it goes down to 50-55.

I had a night screening for apnoe one year ago and there was my average heart rate 48 at night.

[MarkKO]

I think it was @MarkKO who mentioned that if you lift with enough density, then your weight training will also serve as conditioning/cardio. I think this is a good illustration.

Also, what is your resting heart rate ?

Absolutely, but there are a couple of caveats.

The first is that if you aren't out of breath, you're not going to be generating any cardiovascular fitness. So if your rest breaks are between 90 and 120 seconds and you're not sucking wind, you're going to need to drop them to somewhere between 30-60 seconds.

That leads to the second caveat. You're probably going to want to push the pace on exercises like squats, deadlift and bench. That's where you want your rests to be around 60 seconds or so, on average. Although, there are multiple benefits to dedicating a session every couple of weeks to taking those rests down to around 10 seconds.

On the other exercises, you also want to make sure the weight is enough to get hard after five or six reps, keep going up to 15-20 reps and STILL keep the rests shorter, around 60 seconds or so. Certainly never rest long enough for your heart rate to recover completely.

A good way to look at it is, if you aren't out of breath you need to cut your rests down. The only time you may need to slow down slightly is when you're working with over 85%, which you shouldn't be doing regularly anyway.

[DCR]

@MarkKO, for the big barbell movements, what type of sets / reps do you recommend with this?

[MarkKO]

for the big barbell movements, what type of sets / reps do you recommend with this?

A really good starting point is 5x5x60%. Until you can complete the sets in under 10 minutes, you don't add weight. When you achieve that, you add 2.5% and repeat. At that load, something like eight minutes should be easily achievable for squat, probably six or seven minutes for deadlift and bench. After you've been training like that for a while, you should be looking at six to seven minutes at that load and maybe five minutes for bench. As the loads progress your time will probably increase but you should be fine to hit the sets in under 10 minutes until around 70-75%.

If you're going down the road of resting 10 seconds, a good starting point is 5x2 and then 2x5 at 50%. That's not something you progress, you just work with something like 20-40 total reps at a load between 50 and 70% and do it every two or three weeks. If you're squatting, you'll pretty much need to just stand there because you won't have time to rack and unrack.

Or you run in one week 5x5 in under 10 minutes, one week short rests.

[DCR]

for the big barbell movements, what type of sets / reps do you recommend with this?

A really good starting point is 5x5x60%. Until you can complete the sets in under 10 minutes, you don't add weight. When you achieve that, you add 2.5% and repeat. At that load, something like eight minutes should be easily achievable for squat, probably six or seven minutes for deadlift and bench. After you've been training like that for a while, you should be looking at six to seven minutes at that load and maybe five minutes for bench. As the loads progress your time will probably increase but you should be fine to hit the sets in under 10 minutes until around 70-75%.

Thanks for this. I’ve been doing an LP with paused movements and giving myself 5 mins rest between the three sets at the top. It’s been hard to ignore the nagging voice saying:

Your lifts are not remotely impressive.

You’re fat.

And yet you spend an awful lot of time in the gym doing nothing.

[MarkKO]

for the big barbell movements, what type of sets / reps do you recommend with this?

A really good starting point is 5x5x60%. Until you can complete the sets in under 10 minutes, you don't add weight. When you achieve that, you add 2.5% and repeat. At that load, something like eight minutes should be easily achievable for squat, probably six or seven minutes for deadlift and bench. After you've been training like that for a while, you should be looking at six to seven minutes at that load and maybe five minutes for bench. As the loads progress your time will probably increase but you should be fine to hit the sets in under 10 minutes until around 70-75%.

Thanks for this. I’ve been doing an LP with paused movements and giving myself 5 mins rest between the three sets at the top. It’s been hard to ignore the nagging voice saying:

Your lifts are not remotely impressive.

You’re fat.

And yet you spend an awful lot of time in the gym doing nothing.

You have that voice too?

I'd be cautious about doing density work with paused sets, simply because pauses are a variable that I never considered while setting things up.

I'm glad you found this helpful, at any rate. I certainly think it's a great way to train. I've been doing it since mid 2020 IIRC and I've found it very effective. However, I do do other things as well, although central to everything I do is a sense of urgency. As soon as you're in the gym, you're on the clock. If you're not breathing hard, you're moving too slowly. It's a mindset that seems to have helped me a lot.

[SnakePlissken]

for the big barbell movements, what type of sets / reps do you recommend with this?

A really good starting point is 5x5x60%. Until you can complete the sets in under 10 minutes, you don't add weight. When you achieve that, you add 2.5% and repeat. At that load, something like eight minutes should be easily achievable for squat, probably six or seven minutes for deadlift and bench. After you've been training like that for a while, you should be looking at six to seven minutes at that load and maybe five minutes for bench. As the loads progress your time will probably increase but you should be fine to hit the sets in under 10 minutes until around 70-75%.

If you're going down the road of resting 10 seconds, a good starting point is 5x2 and then 2x5 at 50%. That's not something you progress, you just work with something like 20-40 total reps at a load between 50 and 70% and do it every two or three weeks. If you're squatting, you'll pretty much need to just stand there because you won't have time to rack and unrack.

Or you run in one week 5x5 in under 10 minutes, one week short rests.

Stealing this for when I inevitably need to change things up and realize that I've put on 10lbs of weight over the last year and need to shed some of it off.

[MarkKO]

for the big barbell movements, what type of sets / reps do you recommend with this?

A really good starting point is 5x5x60%. Until you can complete the sets in under 10 minutes, you don't add weight. When you achieve that, you add 2.5% and repeat. At that load, something like eight minutes should be easily achievable for squat, probably six or seven minutes for deadlift and bench. After you've been training like that for a while, you should be looking at six to seven minutes at that load and maybe five minutes for bench. As the loads progress your time will probably increase but you should be fine to hit the sets in under 10 minutes until around 70-75%.

If you're going down the road of resting 10 seconds, a good starting point is 5x2 and then 2x5 at 50%. That's not something you progress, you just work with something like 20-40 total reps at a load between 50 and 70% and do it every two or three weeks. If you're squatting, you'll pretty much need to just stand there because you won't have time to rack and unrack.

Or you run in one week 5x5 in under 10 minutes, one week short rests.

Stealing this for when I inevitably need to change things up and realize that I've put on 10lbs of weight over the last year and need to shed some of it off.

I never even considered that it would be useful in that respect, but you're right. It probably would be.

[AlanMackey]

for the big barbell movements, what type of sets / reps do you recommend with this?

A really good starting point is 5x5x60%. Until you can complete the sets in under 10 minutes, you don't add weight. When you achieve that, you add 2.5% and repeat. At that load, something like eight minutes should be easily achievable for squat, probably six or seven minutes for deadlift and bench. After you've been training like that for a while, you should be looking at six to seven minutes at that load and maybe five minutes for bench. As the loads progress your time will probably increase but you should be fine to hit the sets in under 10 minutes until around 70-75%.

If you're going down the road of resting 10 seconds, a good starting point is 5x2 and then 2x5 at 50%. That's not something you progress, you just work with something like 20-40 total reps at a load between 50 and 70% and do it every two or three weeks. If you're squatting, you'll pretty much need to just stand there because you won't have time to rack and unrack.

Or you run in one week 5x5 in under 10 minutes, one week short rests.

I like this quite much! And I wouldn't object if you decided to explore the topic further on a new thread/article.

[MarkKO]

for the big barbell movements, what type of sets / reps do you recommend with this?

A really good starting point is 5x5x60%. Until you can complete the sets in under 10 minutes, you don't add weight. When you achieve that, you add 2.5% and repeat. At that load, something like eight minutes should be easily achievable for squat, probably six or seven minutes for deadlift and bench. After you've been training like that for a while, you should be looking at six to seven minutes at that load and maybe five minutes for bench. As the loads progress your time will probably increase but you should be fine to hit the sets in under 10 minutes until around 70-75%.

If you're going down the road of resting 10 seconds, a good starting point is 5x2 and then 2x5 at 50%. That's not something you progress, you just work with something like 20-40 total reps at a load between 50 and 70% and do it every two or three weeks. If you're squatting, you'll pretty much need to just stand there because you won't have time to rack and unrack.

Or you run in one week 5x5 in under 10 minutes, one week short rests.

I like this quite much! And I wouldn't object if you decided to explore the topic further on a new thread/article.

Noted. Wink.

[asdf]

A really good starting point is 5x5x60%. Until you can complete the sets in under 10 minutes, you don't add weight. When you achieve that, you add 2.5% and repeat....As the loads progress your time will probably increase but you should be fine to hit the sets in under 10 minutes until around 70-75%.

So basically a 1/2 Bryce Lane "Have it all!"

Here's my favorite in that range:

Power Clean + Power Jerk
8 x 4 x 67% (roughly)
On the 1:30

Last set starts @ 10:30, so a bit longer than 10 minutes. But it's 32 reps. Or 64 if you count the power clean and power jerk as separate movements. And I never drop the bar. It's touch-and-go and a gentle return to the ground after the last rep of each set. (Neighbors.)

Definitely cardio.

[MarkKO]

A really good starting point is 5x5x60%. Until you can complete the sets in under 10 minutes, you don't add weight. When you achieve that, you add 2.5% and repeat....As the loads progress your time will probably increase but you should be fine to hit the sets in under 10 minutes until around 70-75%.

So basically a 1/2 Bryce Lane "Have it all!"

Here's my favorite in that range:

Power Clean + Power Jerk
8 x 4 x 67% (roughly)
On the 1:30

Last set starts @ 10:30, so a bit longer than 10 minutes. But it's 32 reps. Or 64 if you count the power clean and power jerk as separate movements. And I never drop the bar. It's touch-and-go and a gentle return to the ground after the last rep of each set. (Neighbors.)

Definitely cardio.

I guess? How does that setup progress the weight?

With the 5x5 in under 10 minutes the 10 minutes is the benchmark you need to hit to add 2.5%. The goal is to add more weight as you go like with any strength system. Except the vast majority of people can only add weight to the same amount of volume every time for a relatively short time. Maybe six weeks, maybe eight if they're really new or lucky. So you've got to have a way to gauge if you're going to be able to recover from what you just did if you want to keep being able to add weight to the same volume.

That's where the 10 minutes comes in. Unless you're in horrible shape, you're very probably going to be able to get 5x5x60% done in 10 minutes without any preparation in terms of GPP. If you squeak it in at nine and a half minutes, chances are you're going to be finding it hard to get that 5x5 with 62.5%, let alone 65%. Either you're out of shape or you're not quite strong enough. Either way, you're unlikely to be able to recover well enough to keep adding weight to the 5x5, for whatever reason.

On the other hand, let's say you get that 5x5x60% done in about six minutes. You're going to most likely be able to add 2.5% each time for a while. By the time you're starting to see nine minutes or so, you'll be over 70%. Also, if one week you get your 5x5 in something like six minutes, the week after with more weight on six and a half minutes, the week after with more weight in six minutes and 40 seconds but suddenly the week after that you get nine minutes, you know something is up that is tanking your recovery.

I just find it a lot more easily quantifiable than RPE or RIR because at best those are accurate guesses.

[asdf]

How does that setup progress the weight?

Not sure if you're asking about Lane's program or my example.

Lane was pretty lax about how to progress. "When you can get the right number of reps in that twenty minutes then up the weight 5-10% next time and work up again. I like 10% jumps since I tend to do better with a bigger drop in volume and more of a challenge with the weight. However if you like the more gradual approach then by all means, use it."

I've run 50/20 successfully for months by taking smaller jumps. At some point, you take a jump and can't get 50 reps in 20 minutes. Then you just stay at that weight and keep plugging away until you get it, then take another jump.

How is that different from your system? You wrote: "A really good starting point is 5x5x60%. Until you can complete the sets in under 10 minutes, you don't add weight. When you achieve that, you add 2.5% and repeat."

With my power clean and jerk workout, it's a bit different. It's not just a matter of getting the reps. It's about getting them with solid form. So I increase the weight only when the current load is no longer "challenging" (totally subjective).

[MarkKO]

How does that setup progress the weight?

Not sure if you're asking about Lane's program or my example.

Lane was pretty lax about how to progress. "When you can get the right number of reps in that twenty minutes then up the weight 5-10% next time and work up again. I like 10% jumps since I tend to do better with a bigger drop in volume and more of a challenge with the weight. However if you like the more gradual approach then by all means, use it."

I've run 50/20 successfully for months by taking smaller jumps. At some point, you take a jump and can't get 50 reps in 20 minutes. Then you just stay at that weight and keep plugging away until you get it, then take another jump.

How is that different from your system? You wrote: "A really good starting point is 5x5x60%. Until you can complete the sets in under 10 minutes, you don't add weight. When you achieve that, you add 2.5% and repeat."

With my power clean and jerk workout, it's a bit different. It's not just a matter of getting the reps. It's about getting them with solid form. So I increase the weight only when the current load is no longer "challenging" (totally subjective).

Got you. No, that's very similar indeed. I had never even heard of 50/20 until now, nor of Lane.

[asdf]

I had never even heard of 50/20 until now, nor of Lane.

Oh, sorry. Lane's 50/20 gets mentioned on this site often. The program was first posted about twenty years ago. His site is long gone, but the original essay has been republished on lots of websites. Here's one, just scroll down to the heading "Here is the original 50/20 program." It's an entertaining read.

https://sustainableevolution.wordpress. ... 0-program/

[cgeorg]

On the other hand, let's say you get that 5x5x60% done in about six minutes. You're going to most likely be able to add 2.5% each time for a while. By the time you're starting to see nine minutes or so, you'll be over 70%.

Maybe the key is to start at a weight where you can do 5x5 in 6 minutes? The E80O80 program.

[MarkKO]

On the other hand, let's say you get that 5x5x60% done in about six minutes. You're going to most likely be able to add 2.5% each time for a while. By the time you're starting to see nine minutes or so, you'll be over 70%.

Maybe the key is to start at a weight where you can do 5x5 in 6 minutes? The E80O80 program.

There would be nothing stopping you, for sure.

I actually got the whole idea from Paul Carter's Base Building. He talks about taking 5x5x60% and milking it until it becomes too easy; his view in that book is you should be able to do that in 20-25 minutes at least but that until you can get through it in about 15 minutes you probably don't need to add weight.

At the point I read that I was in reasonable shape and pretty much knew I could get it done faster than that but that 10 minutes would be a reasonable mark to shoot for.

The main point of it for me is that really you don't *have* to get it done fast, as long as it's less than 10 minutes. The time is just a safety mechanism so that you're not adding weight faster than you can adapt.

The only reason that I've started pushing the time itself is because I realised I can, and I value conditioning. That said, by the time I'm coming towards the end of a cycle which runs about six months, my times are going much closer to 10 minutes, around the eight minutes forty-five to nine minutes fifteen or so and the loads at that stage are around 72.5% so between the load and accumulated fatigue the times do slow down.

I don't think going much beyond 75% would be feasible, or at the very least would have you sitting at the same weight for quite some time before being able to hit that 5x5 in under 10 minutes.

The times are all for squats, just for due disclosure. Bench is a lot, LOT faster. I've gone under five minutes for bench at 60% before, never for squats or deadlift.

But really all that 10 minute benchmark comes down to for me is a safety net.

[AlanMackey]

On the other hand, let's say you get that 5x5x60% done in about six minutes. You're going to most likely be able to add 2.5% each time for a while. By the time you're starting to see nine minutes or so, you'll be over 70%.

Maybe the key is to start at a weight where you can do 5x5 in 6 minutes? The E80O80 program.

There would be nothing stopping you, for sure.

I actually got the whole idea from Paul Carter's Base Building. He talks about taking 5x5x60% and milking it until it becomes too easy; his view in that book is you should be able to do that in 20-25 minutes at least but that until you can get through it in about 15 minutes you probably don't need to add weight.

At the point I read that I was in reasonable shape and pretty much knew I could get it done faster than that but that 10 minutes would be a reasonable mark to shoot for.

The main point of it for me is that really you don't *have* to get it done fast, as long as it's less than 10 minutes. The time is just a safety mechanism so that you're not adding weight faster than you can adapt.

The only reason that I've started pushing the time itself is because I realised I can, and I value conditioning. That said, by the time I'm coming towards the end of a cycle which runs about six months, my times are going much closer to 10 minutes, around the eight minutes forty-five to nine minutes fifteen or so and the loads at that stage are around 72.5% so between the load and accumulated fatigue the times do slow down.

I don't think going much beyond 75% would be feasible, or at the very least would have you sitting at the same weight for quite some time before being able to hit that 5x5 in under 10 minutes.

The times are all for squats, just for due disclosure. Bench is a lot, LOT faster. I've gone under five minutes for bench at 60% before, never for squats or deadlift.

But really all that 10 minute benchmark comes down to for me is a safety net.

Does it have to be 5x5 or you can set a goal of any number of total reps?

Because I find it waaaaay easier doing 2x(5,4,3,2,1) than 1x(5,5,5,5,5) at any given constant load.