Guns and Shit

[mikeylikey]

No one is going to be objective here ....

The Army was.

let's not get crazy

[5hout]

No one is going to be objective here ....

The Army was. I think if the rifle was unshootable, it would not have been selected.

I'm pretty sure at least 60% of vets (which I am not), would argue the exact opposite. Both as a joke, and as serious point about hope/insanity trumping logic in weapons selection.

I think the rifle is fine, and the concerns are overblown/will be worked out. It is still early in the adoption cycle and one fix, that they have very easy room for, is simply dropping the PSI down to 65/70k, still getting a ton of advantages and then you can always issue 80k to people that "need"/can use it. Essentially instead of issuing SMGs/more controllable guns to people that need them (non-front line people/convoy/blah blah blah) issue the same rifle to everyone, but different ammo per mission spec. When I addressed this before I was thinking about the potential to go the other way for even more penetration, but you can certainly down pressure (and based on the piston system) down pressure quite a lot and still cycle fine.

[mikeylikey]

I think the rifle is fine, and the concerns are overblown/will be worked out. It is still early in the adoption cycle and one fix, that they have very easy room for, is simply dropping the PSI down to 65/70k, still getting a ton of advantages and then you can always issue 80k to people that "need"/can use it. Essentially instead of issuing SMGs/more controllable guns to people that need them (non-front line people/convoy/blah blah blah) issue the same rifle to everyone, but different ammo per mission spec. When I addressed this before I was thinking about the potential to go the other way for even more penetration, but you can certainly down pressure (and based on the piston system) down pressure quite a lot and still cycle fine.

Wait, isn't the whole point of the 80kpsi bullet that because it's so flexible you won't need to manage distribution and logicstics for multiple kids of ammo?

I mean, yeah... immediately introducing various supplemental alternatives would be pretty much the most US Government thing ever.

[5hout]

Wait, isn't the whole point of the 80kpsi bullet that because it's so flexible you won't need to manage distribution and logicstics for multiple kids of ammo?

I mean, yeah... immediately introducing various supplemental alternatives would be pretty much the most US Government thing ever.

I think that is the point, but also if they start to have non-weapons experts (i.e. random non-Infantry people/non-giant-gun-nerds) shoot it and discover a huge problem it'd be an elegantly inelegant solution. It has a good amount of internal logic as well. The use case for them is far more likely to not involve long range fights/protracted engagements, but providing volume fire in response to an ambush or sudden "situation". A controllable lower PSI round issued to them provides this really well. I mean, this is just me spitballing, but a lot easier than having 3-4 different rifles/calibers and supporting a battle rifle using a "full power" cartridge, an SMG, and a battle rifle using an "intermediate power" cartridge.

I'm specifically thinking back to Jocko interviews with the MACV-SOG or Vietnam era Seals. You've got people carrying SMGs, Stoners (both belt and magazine configuration), M60s, M14s, M16s and the occasional other rifle. Everything, including what we'd now call a designated marksmen rifle, can be replaced by this firing the 80k round, or if needs warrant, a lower PSI round. The only thing you'd really not be able to do is use it as a "sniper" rifle (although given the optics and flatness, honestly a well tuned one shooting 1moa would probably be perfectly reasonable out to 800 or so yards) and (maybe) consider a shorter version for tight spaces, but probably would be just fine as is.

EDIT: To finish the thought a bit more, it also fills the roll of the non-frontline use of the M1 Carbine in WW2/Korea.

That's an incredible level of crunch to the kinds of guns carried, no different mags and if they end up with different powered rounds, well that's not too bad. Especially as they were always considering subsonic rounds/AP rounds/Incendiary rounds anyway.

[mikeylikey]

Wait, isn't the whole point of the 80kpsi bullet that because it's so flexible you won't need to manage distribution and logicstics for multiple kids of ammo?

I mean, yeah... immediately introducing various supplemental alternatives would be pretty much the most US Government thing ever.

I think that is the point, but also if they start to have non-weapons experts (i.e. random non-Infantry people/non-giant-gun-nerds) shoot it and discover a huge problem it'd be an elegantly inelegant solution. It has a good amount of internal logic as well. The use case for them is far more likely to not involve long range fights/protracted engagements, but providing volume fire in response to an ambush or sudden "situation". A controllable lower PSI round issued to them provides this really well. I mean, this is just me spitballing, but a lot easier than having 3-4 different rifles/calibers and supporting a battle rifle using a "full power" cartridge, an SMG, and a battle rifle using an "intermediate power" cartridge.

I'm specifically thinking back to Jocko interviews with the MACV-SOG or Vietnam era Seals. You've got people carrying SMGs, Stoners (both belt and magazine configuration), M60s, M14s, M16s and the occasional other rifle. Everything, including what we'd now call a designated marksmen rifle, can be replaced by this firing the 80k round, or if needs warrant, a lower PSI round. The only thing you'd really not be able to do is use it as a "sniper" rifle (although given the optics and flatness, honestly a well tuned one shooting 1moa would probably be perfectly reasonable out to 800 or so yards) and (maybe) consider a shorter version for tight spaces, but probably would be just fine as is.

That's an incredible level of crunch to the kinds of guns carried, no different mags and if they end up with different powered rounds, well that's not too bad. Especially as they were always considering subsonic rounds/AP rounds/Incendiary rounds anyway.

That smart optic probably helps with this too, being able tell it what trajectory to calculate for if you end switching loads in the middle of a fight or something.

[mbasic]

No one is going to be objective here ....

The Army was. I think if the rifle was unshootable, it would not have been selected.

Yeah, I guess. The other two rifles in the trials were somewhat weird , and perhaps "too far ahead of their time". Bullpup and/or caseless ceramic ammo, etc. The SIG would be the one I'd choose of those, by a long shot.

I guess the Garand Thumb guy signs off on the recoil, so I'll concede to his opinion. BUUUUUTTT, in the video he concedes he is not shooting the military version of the 277 fury ammo. They are only coming up with 2800 fps with a 16" barrel ....and what looks to be a different (larger) suppressor. (NOT 3000 fps, with a 13", with military grade ammo)

How much different could it be? Probably not much worse.

He brings up the same concerns about the amount of ammo that can be carried.

[aurelius]

I mean, yeah... immediately introducing various supplemental alternatives would be pretty much the most US Government thing ever.

I read (and cannot find now) that the Army is going to start with scout units and combat engineers. Main infantry will essentially be last. If replacing the M4 with a modern battle rifle as the main combat rifle becomes an issue, the army can always continue to use the M4 for 11B infantry while providing the XM5 to specific units/roles. The development/manufacture of a rifle weapon system is not like the development/manufacture of a new plane or submarine.

[mbasic]

No one is going to be objective here ....

The Army was.

let's not get crazy

yeah... LOL at the gov't can't fuck shit up, and/or no small level of corruption exists.

I'm not as well read up on it. But they just replaced this standard issue pistol (SIG won contract also :think-emoji:), and from what I can tell we got nothing better or really different out of it. Pretty sure it was just a 9mm for another 9mm ...but also: new magazines, holsters, revamped training program(s), manual of arms, etc. It was a huge contract, worth a lot of money. Sure the old guns were (supposedly) wore out. Just cranking out a new giant batch of the same gun would've been prudent. Pistols have zero affect on the battlefield or elsewhere.

F4 Phantoms not being designed with a machine gun or auto cannon initially ?
"all air battles will be fought with long range AAMs".
(had to add an underwing machine gun pod later).

[5hout]

Pretty sure it was just a 9mm for another 9mm ...but also: new magazines, holsters, revamped training program(s), manual of arms, etc. It was a huge contract, worth a lot of money. Sure the old guns were (supposedly) wore out. Just cranking out a new giant batch of the same gun would've been prudent. Pistols have zero affect on the battlefield or elsewhere.

And they tiny number of people that use pistols in combat will continue to use different, special purpose, pistols. So really we just spent a ton of money to buy guns that fire when dropped (fixed now) (allegedly).

[mikeylikey]

I mean, yeah... immediately introducing various supplemental alternatives would be pretty much the most US Government thing ever.

I read (and cannot find now) that the Army is going to start with scout units and combat engineers. Main infantry will essentially be last. If replacing the M4 with a modern battle rifle as the main combat rifle becomes an issue, the army can always continue to use the M4 for 11B infantry while providing the XM5 to specific units/roles. The development/manufacture of a rifle weapon system is not like the development/manufacture of a new plane or submarine.

You of little faith. The Government I know can make a boondoggle out of anything.

[aurelius]

You of little faith. The Government I know can make a boondoggle out of anything.

I have faith in mass production of consumer goods. The US commercial gun industry is far larger than the military (400,000,000 privately held guns versus 4,500,000 military guns). There are A LOT of gun manufacturers. Plenty of suppliers and alternatives. Contrast that to jet fighters and submarines...

[5hout]

I ran the approx. #s for .277 Fury out of the new rifle, depending on exact details these might be slightly off (I made no adjustments for silencers/muzzle breaks), but it's coming in at ~17-20 ft lbs of recoil impulse. This is 3x the recoil of 5.56 NATO and, 1.8x the recoil of 6.5 Creedmoor and into the range of medium 12 gauge slugs/heavier .30-06 rifles with some relatively lighter loads.

That's a beefy boy.

[mbasic]

I ran the approx. #s for .277 Fury out of the new rifle, depending on exact details these might be slightly off (I made no adjustments for silencers/muzzle breaks), but it's coming in at ~17-20 ft lbs of recoil impulse. This is 3x the recoil of 5.56 NATO and, 1.8x the recoil of 6.5 Creedmoor and into the range of medium 12 gauge slugs/heavier .30-06 rifles with some relatively lighter loads.

That's a beefy boy.

I've been still watching videos and reading articles.

I believe I saw one that came up with the same recoil numbers you did. They had to Spear at 17 ft.lbs. But (same as you), the conceded the suppressor would reduce that; they referenced some 'science' at a 40% reduction..... but I call bullshit on that number, because that particular suppressor looks smallish, especially for what it is been tasked to do (full auto, quelling a 80,000 psi 6.5 round, able to handle full auto, extended duty, etc). I don't see much gas/sound/recoil buffering going on there compared to traditional suppressors.
I've heard is more of a hybrid suppressor/flash hider/muzzle device/brake... term "smuzzle" was used.

Also, I don't know if this was pointed out. 20 round mags instead of 30 now. Maybe 30 is still an option, or down the road, maybe not. IDK?

The mud test didn't fair so well on inRangeTV.
But that might just be a feature of a piston gun. (noted that similar piston guns had problems).

(and two charging handles/mechanisms? ... seems a little goofy to me. I would've just selected the single charging handle on the left side and been done with it)

[aurelius]

30 round mag would be too big and heavy.

Blame the army for the two charging systems. Sig got rid of the AR-15 style charger but Army wanted it because familiarity. Classic army. We want a completely new weapon system that exactly matches the old one.

[5hout]

Forgotten Weapons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTZRCEh1Czg&t=364s

Notes:

1. Most people are shooting a low powered brass only training round. Already 2 rounds for military use, a training round and a hybrid steel round. It's possible I heard this before and forgot. "My hypothesis is that the Army plans on mostly using the training ammo, and then in the case of actual combat using the high pressure round" [paraphrase of Gun Jesus].

2. No one in private hands has milspec ammo.

3. The barrel change system is making me salivate.

4. It really seems clever, but not overly clever. I'm more impressed than I thought I would be.

5. Vortex seems to be slowly murdering the optics market.

[mbasic]

Forgotten Weapons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTZRCEh1Czg&t=364s

Notes:

1. Most people are shooting a low powered brass only training round. Already 2 rounds for military use, a training round and a hybrid steel round. It's possible I heard this before and forgot. "My hypothesis is that the Army plans on mostly using the training ammo, and then in the case of actual combat using the high pressure round" [paraphrase of Gun Jesus].

2. No one in private hands has milspec ammo.

yeah, this^

I didn't care for that video Karl did at InRange. They eluded to the different types of ammo in the beginning of the video.
I freeze framed several of the slowmo shot the cases being ejected ....hard to see admittedly, but didn't see the silver(steel) butt's of the case flying around. They said (Karl) is was a pleasant shooting gun and was impressed by the recoil .... I'm sure they weren't shooting the milspec ammo.

Was also surprised by the GarandThumb video as well .... but same thing. No milspec ammo likely (suppressor looked slightly bigger too).

EDIT: 14 lbs w/ sentient optic, muzzpresser, and a loaded mag

EDIT2: the comment section of the video

-We’re all glossing over arguably the most shocking part of the rifle; no bayonet
---Japan has rejected it on this alone
---Thats to avoid any "assault weapons" ban
---It ain't no spear with out a bayonet

[mbasic]

30 round mag would be too big and heavy.

Blame the army for the two charging systems. Sig got rid of the AR-15 style charger but Army wanted it because familiarity. Classic army. We want a completely new weapon system that exactly matches the old one.

kinda funny now..... you got two charging handles, and the old forward assist still on there.

I myself, have no qualms with the F.A. on the AR design.

But I can appreciate the funniness of that whole scene ....

[mouse]

Pray for NY you guyz...

We've gone full retard.

[quikky]

Pray for NY you guyz...

We've gone full retard.

What are they up to now?

[mouse]

Pray for NY you guyz...

We've gone full retard.

What are they up to now?

If Queen Andy Jr signs all the shit that they're cooking up?

Licensing to own/purchase/sell any/all semi-automatic rifles, bumping the age from 18 to 21 for semi-automatics, body armor bans, microstamping (huge eye roll), expanded red flag powers, and creating a whole new AG dept for policing Tik Tok posts to name a few...