The Long Pump

[broseph]

This came up in the abs thread, so I thought I'd start a new conversation.

Copypasta from that thread:

... I believe in a phenomenon I call "the long pump." It's not something I've seen discussed, but I think there's an increase in "visible muscle tone" when a muscle is worked regularly.

I refuse to believe my apparent total body deflation after a couple weeks of not lifting is all in my head. The long pump also explains how certain exercises can have apparent immediate effects on the physique- snatch grip high pulls come to mind.

Similarly, I seem to have better ab definition when I'm regularly "doing abs." I don't even need much volume or frequency, and I don't need to push progressive overload. Just getting a few sets twice a week gives me the long pump needed for my 4 pack.

We all know about the "short pump" after lifting where your muscles are engorged and hard and you wish you looked like that all the time. This goes away after maybe half an hour and you (I) can go back to hating yourself and feeling inadequate.

I'm proposing the idea of a "long pump" that lasts 7-14 days (very large margin of error on this estimate), but takes a couple sessions (usually) to get going. As stated in the quoted post, I think this is most obvious when we stop lifting for a week or two, regardless of caloric intake, and we (I) seem to deflate. It is also obvious when a new lift is added, especially in the situation of a "seasoned lifter" who has neglected certain muscle groups. Anecdotally, I've seen this in my arms, traps, abs, and calves.

There was an article on T-Nation a while ago where they talked about Snatch Grip High Pulls, and how people report noticeable changes in their physiques after a few, or even a single session. I swear a few of us on the forum tried this movement and saw results (hopefully they see this thread and chime in). I think the max effort contraction of the upper back musculature is waking up a long pump, and bigger upper back = obviously swole, even in a shirt.

I don't think I've actually gained proteinaceous muscles mass in a week, yet everything looks bigger all the time. I don't know if this is a short term increase in intramuscular energy substrate and water, or an increase in muscle tone, or both, or neither, or maybe it's all in my head and I'm holding my posture differently now that I've been made more aware of the newly trained muscle groups, who knows. But it sure seems like a thing.

Additional support for this phenomenon is that while sitting on the couch at night, I can flex whatever muscles I've been working lately (pec pops, the individual members of the quadriceps group, calves vs soleus, etc). I'm definitely less able to pec pop when I haven't lifted in a while.


Do others have experience with this occurrence or am I crazy?

[alek]

I don't have anything intelligent to add this conversation, but... I just couldn't help it. I'm sorry. When I write up papers, I get extra stupid.

Do others have experience with this occurrence or am I crazy?

Why do you think these things are mutually exclusive?

[broseph]

Do others have experience with this occurrence or am I crazy?

Why do you think these things are mutually exclusive?

As a defense mechanism, I usually try to insult myself before someone else has the chance to. In this instance, I actually saw the opportunity for attack, but passed it over thinking it was too obvious and lame to acknowledge.

[alek]

Do others have experience with this occurrence or am I crazy?

Why do you think these things are mutually exclusive?

As a defense mechanism, I usually try to insult myself before someone else has the chance to. In this instance, I actually saw the opportunity for attack, but passed it over thinking it was too obvious and lame to acknowledge.

I've had a lot of practice with that joke. My wife, bless her heart, has stopped asking me, "Blah blah blah, or do you think I'm crazy?"

[OverheadDeadlifts]

Do others have experience with this occurrence or am I crazy?

It’s definitely a thing. My theories are that it’s either plain old inflammation stuff going on OR that maybe a fatigued muscle is in a tiny bit of contraction in the days following training.

The day after you’ve trained a muscle, it’s generally most noticeable when you put it under a stretch. A stretched position requires a muscle to relax. So if being fatigued has a negative effect on a muscles ability to relax, maybe that means it’s in a little tiny bit of extra contraction at rest. Like a constant miniature cramp.

[broseph]

It’s definitely a thing. My theories are that it’s either plain old inflammation stuff going on OR that maybe a fatigued muscle is in a tiny bit of contraction in the days following training.

The day after you’ve trained a muscle, it’s generally most noticeable when you put it under a stretch. A stretched position requires a muscle to relax. So if being fatigued has an negative effect on a muscles ability to relax, maybe that means it’s in a little tiny bit of extra contraction at rest. Like a constant miniature cramp.

That's more what I was leaning toward as well; extra contraction at rest, and/or maybe there's a lower stimulation threshold for contraction? The lowered stimulation threshold might help explain the increased ability to flex those muscles without actually letting the muscle move the skeleton, e.g. pec pops, not to mention the increased propensity for cramps.

Though I don't know enough about muscle physiology to know if those are plausible things.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Do you have a possible explanation ? Accumulation of metabolites ? Inflammation ? Increase in glycogen stored in the muscle ? Something else ? I don't know much about how muscles work so I have no idea.

[dw]

Greg Nuckols has mentioned the negative version of this - looking flat after just a week off, as likely due to lack of edema.

[Hardartery]

This came up in the abs thread, so I thought I'd start a new conversation.

Copypasta from that thread:

... I believe in a phenomenon I call "the long pump." It's not something I've seen discussed, but I think there's an increase in "visible muscle tone" when a muscle is worked regularly.

I refuse to believe my apparent total body deflation after a couple weeks of not lifting is all in my head. The long pump also explains how certain exercises can have apparent immediate effects on the physique- snatch grip high pulls come to mind.

Similarly, I seem to have better ab definition when I'm regularly "doing abs." I don't even need much volume or frequency, and I don't need to push progressive overload. Just getting a few sets twice a week gives me the long pump needed for my 4 pack.

I'm proposing the idea of a "long pump" that lasts 7-14 days (very large margin of error on this estimate), but takes a couple sessions (usually) to get going. As stated in the quoted post, I think this is most obvious when we stop lifting for a week or two, regardless of caloric intake, and we (I) seem to deflate. It is also obvious when a new lift is added, especially in the situation of a "seasoned lifter" who has neglected certain muscle groups. Anecdotally, I've seen this in my arms, traps, abs, and calves.

I don't think I've actually gained proteinaceous muscles mass in a week, yet everything looks bigger all the time. I don't know if this is a short term increase in intramuscular energy substrate and water, or an increase in muscle tone, or both, or neither, or maybe it's all in my head and I'm holding my posture differently now that I've been made more aware of the newly trained muscle groups, who knows. But it sure seems like a thing.

Additional support for this phenomenon is that while sitting on the couch at night, I can flex whatever muscles I've been working lately (pec pops, the individual members of the quadriceps group, calves vs soleus, etc). I'm definitely less able to pec pop when I haven't lifted in a while.


Do others have experience with this occurrence or am I crazy?

I have noticed that doing regular shoulder work has a crazy effect on my shoulders. They get large striations when flexed and just plain look bigger. Not lifting for three weeks while stuffing my face in France left them somewhat deflated. I notice zero difference in my legs appearance from lifting. The shoulders just stay up if I'm working them at least once a week. They get this way pretty much without impact from my weight gain or loss, they look like they are from a different body than the stomach. My arms react similarly, I get weird vascularity too.

[quikky]

I have noticed that doing regular shoulder work has a crazy effect on my shoulders. They get large striations when flexed and just plain look bigger. Not lifting for three weeks while stuffing my face in France left them somewhat deflated. I notice zero difference in my legs appearance from lifting. The shoulders just stay up if I'm working them at least once a week. They get this way pretty much without impact from my weight gain or loss, they look like they are from a different body than the stomach. My arms react similarly, I get weird vascularity too.

My guess is it's because the deltoids tend to be leaner that a lot of muscles since we typically don't store much fat on our shoulders. So, any pumps or temporary increases in size become more visible and pronounced.

[CaptainAwesome]

Supposedly the after-exercise muscle pump actually lasts longer if you're on steroids. Like for days. Obviously I can't verify, it's a "I heard it from a guy who heard it from another guy" thing. What you're describing is probably something along the same vein as "sarcoplasmic hypertrophy". No, I am not looking to get into an argument as to whether or not that actually exists, because I do not care.

[mbasic]

There was an article on T-Nation a while ago where they talked about Snatch Grip High Pulls, and how people report noticeable changes in their physiques after a few, or even a single session. I swear a few of us on the forum tried this movement and saw results (hopefully they see this thread and chime in). I think the max effort contraction of the upper back musculature is waking up a long pump, and bigger upper back = obviously swole, even in a shirt.

I'm more interested in this SNG high pulls ^ ... than the idea of "residual pump" lasting for days or a week.

That latter seems a little obvious. Probably inflammation, and/or your muscles adapting to storing glycogen (which occurs along with water) for the metabolic work / quasi-metabolic work you are adapting to. And if time passes without training, your muscles probably feel that they don't have to hold onto or store as much glycogen as the previously did, and therefore shrink a bit.

I am not writing this off, or disbelieving it .... but the snatch grip high pull part is odd, as the lift in primarily accomplished with the legs. As for the pulling with the arms and upper back/traps .... well, there's not a whole lot of eccentric action going on there. Its primarily a concentric lift. The ROM of the arms is reduced due to the wide ass grip (say as opposed to a regular upright row). And all the Beardsley stuff about tension, and the force-velocity curve with respects to muscle growth .... snatch-high-pulls are primarily a ballistic movement, even the rowing part.

But I do love them.

Are you guy doing them from the floor, or more like a Klokov type thing ? The latter would explain a lot .

[Renascent]

I am not writing this off, or disbelieving it .... but the snatch grip high pull part is odd, as the lift in primarily accomplished with the legs.   As for the pulling with the arms and upper back/traps .... well, there's not a whole lot of eccentric action going on there.   Its primarily a concentric lift.   The ROM of the arms is reduced due to the wide ass grip (say as opposed to a regular upright row).   And all the Beardsley stuff about tension, and the force-velocity curve with respects to muscle growth .... snatch-high-pulls are primarily a ballistic movement, even the rowing part.

This is the article that convinced me to try them, sometime back in 2018, I think...

I pulled from the safeties (slightly above knee-height) -- in lieu of blocks -- specifically to minimize lower body contributions.

While I didn't make any deliberate attempt to slow the descent, there is still some eccentric component, unless you release the bar at the top (which would be weird, in my opinion). Maybe more range of motion on the eccentric with a hang, but I never liked doing it that way.

In hindsight, I probably could've achieved a similar outcome with regular old shrugs, but I didn't use a wide grip with shrugs back then (and subsequently wrote off their effectiveness for a time). I also suspect the explosive aspect of the high pull imparts something that a "normal" shrug or pull does not.

[broseph]

I was just about to link the article, but @Renascent beat me to it.

@mbasic I’m guessing the T Nation bodybuildy way of doing that movement is different than the fancy Olympic lifter way.

[cole]

im sure a lot of it is water retention

[broseph]

im sure a lot of it is water retention

I’d think the scale would reflect this? During a 2 week whole body deflation, it seems like that would be enough water to change your bodyweight.

I guess I’ve never weighed myself specifically looking for these water weight changes, but I think if I flattened out while simultaneously losing 2 pounds I’d remember it because it would freak me out.

[Hardartery]

im sure a lot of it is water retention

I’d think the scale would reflect this? During a 2 week whole body deflation, it seems like that would be enough water to change your bodyweight.

I guess I’ve never weighed myself specifically looking for these water weight changes, but I think if I flattened out while simultaneously losing 2 pounds I’d remember it because it would freak me out.

I got deflated while gaining both overall weight and water weight while I was in France. Lifting just pumps you back up quickly though.

[broseph]

I was watching this video and it made me think of this thread.

Time stamped tidbit, goes for about a minute:



"Most lifters are essentially continuously in a state of edema"
"If you work out frequently ... you are pretty much permanently swollen"

[Renascent]

"If you work out frequently ... you are pretty much permanently swollen"

This idea has occurred to me recently since I've not been lifting every day of the week since summer started. I like to think I still "look like I lift," but ... yeah. Much flatter from the sides.

I won't quote any of the previous year-old posts in this thread, but:

1) As someone else said, I do wonder if some "perpetual" state of inflammation from frequent lifting can be attributed to looking bigger for longer. When I went to see a surgeon about two years ago, he noted a bunch of inflammation in my arm. The visit took place about two weeks after the incident that prompted the visit, but I also opted not to tell him that I'd done some heavy benching a few hours before the appointment. Figured if I told him the inflammation might be due to something I'd done earlier that morning, it could create some "noise" in his observations -- or that he'd write me off as a dumbass -- and he'd end things there without further investigation.

2) Aside from working a lot more lately (and being in the same anatomical positions for extended periods), I have noticed an ability to "relax" muscles during stretches that I'd hitherto dare not try if I were still lifting as consistently as before. When I do manage to sneak in a session, the DOMS is fucking ridiculous, and I question the wisdom of stretching aggressively the next day. I end up feeling like my shit is still in a mini-contracted state, but not nearly as much as when I was lifting more frequently.

3) The water thing. Been drinking less water, and eating less. I seem to plump back up when I get a full session completed, and the "thick" look hangs around for a few days longer than I would expect, but I've also accomplished the same visual effect when I eat and hydrate more regularly for a few consecutive days without any lifting involved.

Disclaimer: haven't watched the video just yet, but I forgot about this thread. Glad I reread it.

[broseph]

As someone else said, I do wonder if some "perpetual" state of inflammation from frequent lifting can be attributed to looking bigger for longer. When I went to see a surgeon about two years ago, he noted a bunch of inflammation in my arm. The visit took place about two weeks after the incident that prompted the visit, but I also opted not to tell him that I'd done some heavy benching a few hours before the appointment. Figured if I told him the inflammation might be due to something I'd done earlier that morning, it could create some "noise" in his observations -- or that he'd write me off as a dumbass -- and he'd end things there without further investigation.

Inflammation has become such a buzzword and mortal enemy in recent history, especially in the alternative health community. Sauna, ice baths, keto, massage, cupping, etc all include "reduced inflammation" in their slogans.

Obviously, chronic and inappropriate inflammation is a bad thing, but it's weird to think we (and many members of the alt health community) are living in an intentionally induced constant state of it. *shrug*