MASS SHOOTING THREAD - Society has reached somekind of inflection point

[mbasic]

QUESTION A: Someone want to explain the current rise in mass shootings?

Add in the political mess for maybe the last .... IDK .... the last 10-15 years?
(the super-polarization of America)

I think the covid lockdown thing, or covid itself (has affected our brain's), was the straw that upset the apple cart or something more recently?
(kind of joking about the latter, but maybe not really)

Other possible explanations:

A whole generation of cyberkids reaching maturity, exposure to social media and the internet?

Environmental toxins?

Destruction of the family unit?
(I know I'm going to get a bunch of eye rolls here).

A combination of these things?

======================================

QUESTION B: What to do about it. OR, better said: what do YOU plan to do about it in your current situation?
....I'm having a lot of anxiety about raising my kids in the current "climate".

[mouse]

A) yes, maybe except for the weird toxins part

B) the best I can with the hand I'm dealt. I've seen a lot of parents these past few weeks having what seem to be mental breakdowns about how they are afraid to take their kids to grocery stores and stuff now and I worry about the effect that type of reaction would have on their kid(s).

We don't actively sit our kids down and 'explain' the current events to them and I don't think its a great idea to project fears onto kids that don't (or might not) have them. They are at least somewhat aware of the possibility (they do drills and shit etc) but they haven't really brought it up, and if they did, we'd assure them its a statistical anomaly (yes, even with as popular as the news wants you to think they are) and that while bad things do happen, they are still very safe.

A small tear on A/B: I'm not sure how best to explain it, but I think the vast majority of us as a people/nation are suffering from some mass delusions or mental illness, and the reaction to corona really solidified that to me. We have issues that laws and political scolding just aren't going to solve... quite the opposite I'd think.

[quikky]

Seems a ton of the shooters fit the same profile: young men with social and psychological issues. I think social media is at least partly responsible. If you had these problems in the past, you might only feel them while out in public. Now, you can go online and see just how awesome everyone's totally not fake life is on the internet. Then you add the algorithms that feed you info that confirms your biases and/or gets emotions out of you, and you live in a nasty internet bubble where your own issues can fester. Then you can post things on social media about the shooting, and also know you will become infamous in the media and you have your revenge quest against society.

[Culican]

It is a bit much for a country constantly involved in wars, either directly or indirectly, to expect peace at home.

[quikky]

It is a bit much for a country constantly involved in wars, either directly or indirectly, to expect peace at home.

Why would being involved in wars cause mass shootings at home?

[mikeylikey]

It is a bit much for a country constantly involved in wars, either directly or indirectly, to expect peace at home.

Why would being involved in wars cause mass shootings at home?

"Cause" is probably a bit strong, but, I would say it as the the following impacts, in order of importance:

1) General devaluing of human life
2) Fetishizing of military weapons in war propaganda movies & video games
3) Cheap & plentiful guns and ammo because military industrial complex - economies of scale

[GlasgowJock]

Seems a ton of the shooters fit the same profile: young men with social and psychological issues.

Indeed.

The US more easily furnishes such individuals with the tools to rage against a society that through formative years becomes so increasingly alien to them they can't even relate to their fellow humans on a base level once they get to that point where they're stalking from classroom to classroom with an armalite AR-10 carbine gas-powered semi-automatic weapon, pumping round after round into class mates and teachers.

[quikky]

It is a bit much for a country constantly involved in wars, either directly or indirectly, to expect peace at home.

Why would being involved in wars cause mass shootings at home?

"Cause" is probably a bit strong, but, I would say it as the the following impacts, in order of importance:

1) General devaluing of human life
2) Fetishizing of military weapons in war propaganda movies & video games
3) Cheap & plentiful guns and ammo because military industrial complex - economies of scale

I think #3 makes it easier to do it in the US compared to countries where guns are hard to come by, but the issue is that someone wants to do it in the first place, not that guns are readily available. I am guessing these same individuals living elsewhere would do something else instead, bomb, cold weapons, using their car, etc.

#1 and #2, I think, are quite a stretch in terms of having a causative effect.

Seems a ton of the shooters fit the same profile: young men with social and psychological issues.

Indeed.

The US more easily furnishes such individuals with the tools to rage against a society that through formative years becomes so increasingly alien to them they can't even relate to their fellow humans on a base level once they get to that point where they're stalking from classroom to classroom with an armalite AR-10 carbine gas-powered semi-automatic weapon, pumping round after round into class mates and teachers.

[EggMcMuffin]

US culture generally being really rotten and fascistic (very controversial take) + absolutely horrible economic prospects for vast majority of young people (controversial take) + tons of isolation and fractured communities due to (sub)urban sprawl, work pressures/awful work culture

All of this either lends itself to suicidal ideation, homocidal rage or both!

[Hanley]

What to do about it.

Incel psychopaths with a history of threatening behavior/language lose 4a protection (probable cause thresholds)...with a likely follow-on loss of other rights (2a's obviously the big one) pending investigation.

[Philbert]

US culture generally being really rotten and fascistic (very controversial take) + absolutely horrible economic prospects for vast majority of young people (controversial take) + tons of isolation and fractured communities due to (sub)urban sprawl, work pressures/awful work culture

All of this either lends itself to suicidal ideation, homocidal rage or both!

Whether or not these takes are controversial in general, I doubt they are controversial among the group perpetrating the mass stranger shootings, or the far more common mass rival shootings.
America's unique problem is the contradiction between our publicly avowed classless society, and the reality that a socially awkward kid from Binghamton is not going to be the next [insert childhood fantasy here]. All societies have inequality, but America has highly visible inequality combined with a strong tradition of telling kids they can be anything they want. In recent years we have doubled down on both fronts, insisting that everyone is entitled not only to equal opportunities, but to sufficient special treatment to enable them to act on those opportunities. Meanwhile the lives of the 1% and the famous become ever more visible. Being told all your life that you are just as good as anyone else, then discovering that you are in economic, or sexual, or social terms not as good as 99% of the population around you is a shock to the system. A young man inclined to mental instability, and who has spent his formative years in artificial interactions without real world consequences, is likely to go over the edge with that degree of narcissistic injury. At that point he will be looking for someone to blame other than himself. Enter Black people, or the popular kids at school, or the surgeon who couldn't fix his back, or . . .

[aurelius]

I think #3 makes it easier to do it in the US compared to countries where guns are hard to come by, but the issue is that someone wants to do it in the first place, not that guns are readily available. I am guessing these same individuals living elsewhere would do something else instead, bomb, cold weapons, using their car, etc.

This misunderstands mental illness. Accessibility to firearms is a key issue.

Take suicide. Women have the highest rate of suicide attempts. Men have the highest suicides. Why? Women take pills. Men blow their heads off with shotguns. People that attempts suicide describe being in anguish for months and years. Suicide is often a fleeting thought that people in despair act on. Which is why therapists always asks, "Have you had suicidal thoughts?" And it can be...man today sucks...wish I was dead. That moment passes and they don't commit suicide.
Most people that attempt suicide once do not attempt again.

Appy this to mass shooters. They understand there is no coming back if they go through with it. Essentially a power suicide fantasy. They don't 'plan' it in a conventional movie heist sense. They just fantasize about it. So one day they buy a semi-automatic because it is cheap and easy. They have it on hand just in case. Then something triggers them one day. They get rejected or ignored by a girl, have an argument with grandma, whatever. It is non-rational and focusing on why is unimportant. In that moment of despair and anguish they grab the firearm and attack the thing that symbolizes their oppression. Under 25 attacks schools. Over 25 attacks work places. We should also point out they are male. And most likely white male.

Just like suicide attempts, there are signs. Depression, anti-social behavior, verbalizing their fantasies. But the common element of 'successful' suicides and mass shooters is ready access to firearms.

And the statistics don't hold up to 'they will figure out a way to do it'. Europe isn't rife with crazy bombers or death by moped and what not. Only the US has ready access to cheap semi-automatic firearms. Only the US has this scale of mass killings (not counting organized genocide/war). When the US did not have access to cheap semi-automatic firearms, mass shootings were rare.

[quikky]

I think #3 makes it easier to do it in the US compared to countries where guns are hard to come by, but the issue is that someone wants to do it in the first place, not that guns are readily available. I am guessing these same individuals living elsewhere would do something else instead, bomb, cold weapons, using their car, etc.

This misunderstands mental illness. Accessibility to firearms is a key issue.

Take suicide. Women have the highest rate of suicide attempts. Men have the highest suicides. Why? Women take pills. Men blow their heads off with shotguns. People that attempts suicide describe being in anguish for months and years. Suicide is often a fleeting thought that people in despair act on. Which is why therapists always asks, "Have you had suicidal thoughts?" And it can be...man today sucks...wish I was dead. That moment passes and they don't commit suicide.
Most people that attempt suicide once do not attempt again.

Appy this to mass shooters. They understand there is no coming back if they go through with it. Essentially a power suicide fantasy. They don't 'plan' it in a conventional movie heist sense. They just fantasize about it. So one day they buy a semi-automatic because it is cheap and easy. They have it on hand just in case. Then something triggers them one day. They get rejected or ignored by a girl, have an argument with grandma, whatever. It is non-rational and focusing on why is unimportant. In that moment of despair and anguish they grab the firearm and attack the thing that symbolizes their oppression. Under 25 attacks schools. Over 25 attacks work places. We should also point out they are male. And most likely white male.

Just like suicide attempts, there are signs. Depression, anti-social behavior, verbalizing their fantasies. But the common element of 'successful' suicides and mass shooters is ready access to firearms.

And the statistics don't hold up to 'they will figure out a way to do it'. Europe isn't rife with crazy bombers or death by moped and what not. Only the US has ready access to cheap semi-automatic firearms. Only the US has this scale of mass killings (not counting organized genocide/war). When the US did not have access to cheap semi-automatic firearms, mass shootings were rare.

I do not believe your opinion reflects the evidence on the subject. See: https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/pre ... 3.pdf/view

Related bits:

Active shooters generally take some time to plan and carry out the attack. However, retrospectively determining
the exact moment when an active shooter decided to engage in violence is a challenging and imprecise process.
In reviewing indicators of planning and preparing, the FBI notes that most active shooters (who demonstrated
evidence of these processes in an observable manner) spent days, weeks, and sometimes months getting ready to
attack. In fact, in those cases where it could be determined, 77% of the active shooters (n = 26) spent a week or
longer planning their attack, and 46% (n = 21) spent a week or longer preparing. Readers are cautioned that simply
because some active shooters spent less than 24 hours planning and preparing, this should not suggest that potential
warning signs or evidence of an escalating grievance did not exist before the initiation of these behaviors. In the
four cases where active shooters took less than 24 hours to plan and prepare for their attacks, all had at least one
concerning behavior and three had an identifiable grievance.

In light of the very high lifetime prevalence of the symptoms of mental illness among the U.S. population, formally
diagnosed mental illness is not a very specific predictor of violence of any type, let alone targeted violence.16,17,18
Some studies indicate that nearly half of the U.S. population experiences symptoms of mental illness over their
lifetime, with population estimates of the lifetime prevalence of diagnosable mental illness among U.S. adults at
46%, with 9% meeting the criteria for a personality disorder.19,20 Therefore, absent specific evidence, careful consideration should be given to social and contextual factors that might interact with any mental health issue before
concluding that an active shooting was “caused” by mental illness. In short, declarations that all active shooters
must simply be mentally ill are misleading and unhelpful.

A grievance is defined for this study as the cause of the active shooter’s distress or resentment; a perception — not
necessarily based in reality — of having been wronged or treated unfairly or inappropriately.24,25,26 More than a
typical feeling of resentment or passing anger, a grievance often results in a grossly distorted preoccupation with
a sense of injustice, like an injury that fails to heal. These thoughts can saturate a person’s thinking and foster a
pervasive sense of imbalance between self-image and the (real or perceived) humiliation. This nagging sense of
unfairness can spark an overwhelming desire to “right the wrong” and achieve a measure of satisfaction and/or
revenge.

In light of that, the implication that ready access to firearms is the difference between the US and other countries does not seem to stand. Shooters rarely "snap" and grab their guns and go on a rampage, or are suddenly triggered by an argument or a bad day. The latter, combined with other factors, could lead to them committing a mass shooting later, but typically through a planned attack and not a fleeting moment of rage or a lapse in mental illness.

[aurelius]

Double post

[aurelius]

@quikky you misunderstand what I wrote and what the above states. They plan as in fantasize about it. Make preparations. But make no specific plans as in when. Basic project management. A scope without a schedule is nada. Just think about the how. Then they have a bad day, grab the gun, and go. That very much describes the Ulvalde shooter.

And you still fail to address why mass violence of this scale is only a phenomenon experienced in the US. There are 8 billion people in the world. About 1.2 billion live in first world countries. Yet this only happens In the US. And only when semi-automatic firearms became readily available to the general public. Your conjecture that they will ‘find other’ means is not backed up by any evidence. Because they by and large simply don’t.

This study is a descriptive study that only attempts to describe pre-attack behaviors of active shooters. It relies heavily on the case files of local law enforcement and how they chose to define and assess the event. It includes all active shooters for a time period which is broader than the mass type shooters we are discussing. The schools shooter in Ulvalde is not the same as the Tulsa shooter at the hospital. It speculates but does not focus on ‘causes’. Which is why the segments you post read as conjecture. Because they are. There are many other studies that do focus on causes, are comparative studies and examine other areas, and better answer the questions being asked. Hint: having high capacity semi-automatics readily available to anyone 18 and older is a problem.

Let me ask you this: if it is not ready access to semi-automatic firearms, then how do you explain the US phenomen of mass killings? And how do you explain other 1st world countries are not experiencing it if ‘they will figure something else out’?

[quikky]

you misunderstand what I wrote and what the above states. They plan as in fantasize about it. Make preparations. But make no specific plans as in when. Basic project management. A scope without a schedule is nada. Just think about the how. Then they have a bad day, grab the gun, and go.

Maybe we're talking past each other but you stated in the earlier post, the decision to carry out the shooting was akin to suicide, describing it as a fleeting feeling, and the access to firearms is what turned this fleeting feeling into reality. I don't see evidence that this is the case. The study I linked showed that in the majority of cases there was evidence of planning and preparation leading to the shooting, and it was not a fleeting feeling due to a lapse in mental illness, generally speaking.

Let me ask you this: if it is not ready access to semi-automatic firearms, then how do you explain the US phenomen of mass killings? And how do you explain other 1st world countries are not experiencing it if ‘they will figure something else out’?

I don't know. I have been to a good number of countries and have even lived for years outside the US. People are different. Cultures are different. I am not confident saying the problem is simply access to guns. If this would simply be about guns, I believe we would see similar incidents elsewhere but carried out using different means, perhaps will less lethal outcomes. Why we don't seem to see it much, like I said, I do not know.

[aurelius]

you misunderstand what I wrote and what the above states. They plan as in fantasize about it. Make preparations. But make no specific plans as in when. Basic project management. A scope without a schedule is nada. Just think about the how. Then they have a bad day, grab the gun, and go.

Maybe we're talking past each other but you stated in the earlier post, the decision to carry out the shooting was akin to suicide, describing it as a fleeting feeling, and the access to firearms is what turned this fleeting feeling into reality. I don't see evidence that this is the case. The study I linked showed that in the majority of cases there was evidence of planning and preparation leading to the shooting, and it was not a fleeting feeling due to a lapse in mental illness, generally speaking.

Let me ask you this: if it is not ready access to semi-automatic firearms, then how do you explain the US phenomen of mass killings? And how do you explain other 1st world countries are not experiencing it if ‘they will figure something else out’?

I don't know. I have been to a good number of countries and have even lived for years outside the US. People are different. Cultures are different. I am not confident saying the problem is simply access to guns. If this would simply be about guns, I believe we would see similar incidents elsewhere but carried out using different means, perhaps will less lethal outcomes. Why we don't seem to see it much, like I said, I do not know.

You don’t know, offer no viable explanation, and can’t provide evidence to support ‘they will find other ways’ but are sure it isn’t the ready access to semi-automatic weapons.

I am just frustrated. Not necessarily at you. This has been happening for over 20 years and the ‘what can we do’ attitude is tiresome. Land of the free and our kids cower in fear at school hoping they are not next. America the Great? America is a bad joke.

[quikky]

you misunderstand what I wrote and what the above states. They plan as in fantasize about it. Make preparations. But make no specific plans as in when. Basic project management. A scope without a schedule is nada. Just think about the how. Then they have a bad day, grab the gun, and go.

Maybe we're talking past each other but you stated in the earlier post, the decision to carry out the shooting was akin to suicide, describing it as a fleeting feeling, and the access to firearms is what turned this fleeting feeling into reality. I don't see evidence that this is the case. The study I linked showed that in the majority of cases there was evidence of planning and preparation leading to the shooting, and it was not a fleeting feeling due to a lapse in mental illness, generally speaking.

Let me ask you this: if it is not ready access to semi-automatic firearms, then how do you explain the US phenomen of mass killings? And how do you explain other 1st world countries are not experiencing it if ‘they will figure something else out’?

I don't know. I have been to a good number of countries and have even lived for years outside the US. People are different. Cultures are different. I am not confident saying the problem is simply access to guns. If this would simply be about guns, I believe we would see similar incidents elsewhere but carried out using different means, perhaps will less lethal outcomes. Why we don't seem to see it much, like I said, I do not know.

You don’t know, offer no viable explanation, and can’t provide evidence to support ‘they will find other ways’ but are sure it isn’t the ready access to semi-automatic weapons.

I am just frustrated. Not necessarily at you. This has been happening for over 20 years and the ‘what can we do’ attitude is tiresome. Land of the free and our kids cower in fear at school hoping they are not next. America the Great? America is a bad joke.

I didn't say I was sure it wasn't access to guns, just that I am not confident proclaiming as such. Guns seem to be the easy target since they are the tool used but I don't think it is that simple. Considering how many gun owners we have, the amount of mass shooters, of the school type, especially, is exceedingly rare. Going by numbers, I would guess the school shooter to gun owner rate is one to tens of millions. I think this is likely much more complicated than you're making it out to be.

Kids cowering in fear at school is not a rational fear. There are orders of magnitude more kids dying from the flu they catch in school than from school shootings. This isn't to downplay the tragedy of those directly affected and their communities when it does happen, but it is also statistically not something to live in fear of.

[aurelius]

I didn't say I was sure it wasn't access to guns, just that I am not confident proclaiming as such. Guns seem to be the easy target since they are the tool used but I don't think it is that simple. Considering how many gun owners we have, the amount of mass shooters, of the school type, especially, is exceedingly rare. Going by numbers, I would guess the school shooter to gun owner rate is one to tens of millions. I think this is likely much more complicated than you're making it out to be.

this is a deflective argument that does not address anything pertinent. Replace guns with cars and one could make an equally valid argument when discussing drinking and driving. There are a lot of cars. A lot of people drink and drive. Very rare to be killed by a drunk driver. No big deal. Yet we still passed laws to prevent it. Police set up check points and so on.

So all that leaves is gun ownership is ‘right’. Yet we already restrict it in numerous ways including age and legal status. It is not absolute.

Kids cowering in fear at school is not a rational fear. There are orders of magnitude more kids dying from the flu they catch in school than from school shootings. This isn't to downplay the tragedy of those directly affected and their communities when it does happen, but it is also statistically not something to live in fear of.

Schools have active shooter drills multiple times per year. Campuses have lockdowns without any explanations as precautions multiple times per year. Police officers patrol elementary schools. This is a reality of going to school in the US today. Kids are scared. Feel free to discuss statistics and that they should not be afraid with elementary school kids that are hiding under their desks during an active shooter drill.

[quikky]

I didn't say I was sure it wasn't access to guns, just that I am not confident proclaiming as such. Guns seem to be the easy target since they are the tool used but I don't think it is that simple. Considering how many gun owners we have, the amount of mass shooters, of the school type, especially, is exceedingly rare. Going by numbers, I would guess the school shooter to gun owner rate is one to tens of millions. I think this is likely much more complicated than you're making it out to be.

this is a deflective argument that does not address anything pertinent. Replace guns with cars and one could make an equally valid argument when discussing drinking and driving. There are a lot of cars. A lot of people drink and drive. Very rare to be killed by a drunk driver. No big deal. Yet we still passed laws to prevent it. Police set up check points and so on.

We have easy access to alcohol and cars. The illegal combination of the two sometimes leads to others getting killed. We have easy (not as easy as alcohol and cars) access to guns. The illegal usage of which leads to others getting killed. Therefore, the problem is being able to access these things? I am not sure what point you were trying to make there.

So all that leaves is gun ownership is ‘right’. Yet we already restrict it in numerous ways including age and legal status. It is not absolute.

I didn't say anything about whether to restrict guns or not, or of gun ownership being a right. I said distilling the issue at hand to gun access seems too simplistic to me and I believe there are a lot more factors in play than just access to guns.

Kids cowering in fear at school is not a rational fear. There are orders of magnitude more kids dying from the flu they catch in school than from school shootings. This isn't to downplay the tragedy of those directly affected and their communities when it does happen, but it is also statistically not something to live in fear of.

Schools have active shooter drills multiple times per year. Campuses have lockdowns without any explanations as precautions multiple times per year. Police officers patrol elementary schools. This is a reality of going to school in the US today. Kids are scared. Feel free to discuss statistics and that they should not be afraid with elementary school kids that are hiding under their desks during an active shooter drill.

I don't think kids should be taught to be afraid, and statistically, they don't need to be. Preparing "just in case" and enhanced security should not lead to fear.