Bodybuilding tactics

[DCR]

Anyone work with / find any use for stuff like slow count negatives, pauses (other than on bench), drop sets, supersets, etc.?

Guy where I lift is a strongman competitor who is stupid strong but just loves shit like 8s with a 4-count negative, preaching the mind muscle connection, and unilateral exercises. It’s so odd (or so it seems) but can’t argue with the results.

[5hout]

Just to get us started (with that caveat that I have the ultra DYEL upper body): As far as I am aware Dorian Yates, Dr. Mike I and JM Blakely all strongly advocate for mind muscle connection, and Yates/Blakely both seem to think slow negatives/good proportion of unilateral work are very potent for size and (somewhat) for strength. On https://youtu.be/kWmrxDCI9wI?t=178 (I don't remember the time stamp) there is a fairly interesting discussion about off-season BB training, slow reps and similar topics.

[Hanley]

Anyone work with / find any use for stuff like slow count negatives, pauses (other than on bench), drop sets, supersets, etc.?

It's all useful.

Here's how I've used them (but the utility certainly isn't limited to what I'm listing):

Slow count negatives are great for technique/body-control and for inducing fatigue with relatively light loads.

Pauses are great for training stability / bracing / balance

Drop sets are great for hypertrophy (I think most folks probably neglect the hypertrophy potential of fatigue resistant muscle fiber).

I use supersets all the time, but primarily for time efficiency.

The "mind-muscle" thing is legit. I can absolutely alter total recruitment and recruitment patterns of the primary movers in a given lift via volition.

[DCR]

Anyone work with / find any use for stuff like slow count negatives, pauses (other than on bench), drop sets, supersets, etc.?

It's all useful.

Here's how I've used them (but the utility certainly isn't limited to what I'm listing):

Slow count negatives are great for technique/body-control and for inducing fatigue with relatively light loads.

Pauses are great for training stability / bracing / balance

Drop sets are great for hypertrophy (I think most folks probably neglect the hypertrophy potential of fatigue resistant muscle fiber).

I use supersets all the time, but primarily for time efficiency.

The "mind-muscle" thing is legit. I can absolutely alter total recruitment and recruitment patterns of the primary movers in a given lift via volition.

IIRC, you also use partials for hypertrophy, at least for chest - have you tried them with anything else?

[DCR]

Just to get us started (with that caveat that I have the ultra DYEL upper body): As far as I am aware Dorian Yates, Dr. Mike I and JM Blakely all strongly advocate for mind muscle connection, and Yates/Blakely both seem to think slow negatives/good proportion of unilateral work are very potent for size and (somewhat) for strength. On https://youtu.be/kWmrxDCI9wI?t=178 (I don't remember the time stamp) there is a fairly interesting discussion about off-season BB training, slow reps and similar topics.

Ah fuck, man, my neurosis requires that I listen to all 3:30. Be back with you in a week.

[ColonelMoutarde]

I feel that "mind muscle connection" is crucial, especially, for muscles that are your weak point. There is a saying that "if you can't flex it you can't build it" and it is probably true. You should know how to flex the target muscle and you should know how to get a good pump. Now it does not mean that you always have to get a pump, especially when doing barbell compounds with heavy weighs. But if you can't get a pump on command in a given muscle, you are probably not doing things right.

The problem is that to have a good mind muscle connection (if you do not already have one) is that you have to go back to using lighter loads, higher rep ranges, slower tempos, changing exercises etc. Not only is that not great for your ego (if you like to lift heavy) but also feels like "wasted time". In that respect machine/unilateral work is great because you can focus on feeling the muscle rather than focusing on trying to balance and generally not dying.

For instance, if you do not know how to feel your quads doing some hack squats with a 3 second negative and 10-20 reps might be superior to doing sets of 5 reps in the low bar squat.

[Renascent]

Anyone work with / find any use for stuff like slow count negatives, pauses (other than on bench), drop sets, supersets, etc.?

I think unilateral exercises are just as good for uncovering imbalances as they are for minimizing them. My squat seems to level out for a while when I stick with RFESSs or side plank variations long enough (and back into the shitter when I backslide on my consistency).

I use supersets/alternating sets for accessory lifts exclusively, though moreso for time management reasons than muscle fatigue or pumpage concerns.

The slow negatives / eccentrics are where most of my interest lies right now. Calves hadn't grown for years until I started doing leg curls with a deliberately slowed-down negative. Same with neck curls. I've slowed down Nordic Curls even more than zi used to and am getting some new growth out of those too. I'm trying to see how far I can get, growth-wise, slowing the negative on other auxiliary movements (a sarcomeric wishlist), though I sometimes forget to focus purely on the negative if I get distracted or bored.

I'm finding that, with most cable work, the weight doesn't matter much, and it gets a lot harder with high reps and slow negatives.

[MarkKO]

Anyone work with / find any use for stuff like slow count negatives, pauses (other than on bench), drop sets, supersets, etc.?

Guy where I lift is a strongman competitor who is stupid strong but just loves shit like 8s with a 4-count negative, preaching the mind muscle connection, and unilateral exercises. It’s so odd (or so it seems) but can’t argue with the results.

Yes to pretty much all of those. For assistance work, at any rate.

Slow negatives are about the only way I've managed to get my chest and arms to grow.

[Renascent]

Anyone work with / find any use for stuff like slow count negatives, pauses (other than on bench), drop sets, supersets, etc.?

Guy where I lift is a strongman competitor who is stupid strong but just loves shit like 8s with a 4-count negative, preaching the mind muscle connection, and unilateral exercises. It’s so odd (or so it seems) but can’t argue with the results.

Yes to pretty much all of those. For assistance work, at any rate.

Slow negatives are about the only way I've managed to get my chest and arms to grow.

I think the only reason I've ever gotten any chest growth from bench pressing is because of the slow descent, which was borne out of caution (and habit) rather than any intentional hypertrophic goals.

[quikky]

I find pauses to be useful for targeting the quads during squats. Pausing during an SSB or high bar squat makes it easier to drive with the quads out of the bottom as opposed to bouncing out of the hole with the hips. The anti-hip-drahve, if you will.

[MarkKO]

I've never found pauses to be at all effective for any of the main lifts, TBH. I'm also not a fan of playing around with the tempo of competition lifts at all, although I realise I'm in the monitory on both counts.

Assistance work is a different story, though, especially for the mirror muscles. I can't seem to get my chest or arms to grow unless I play with tempo.

[AlanMackey]

I find pauses to be useful for targeting the quads during squats. Pausing during an SSB or high bar squat makes it easier to drive with the quads out of the bottom as opposed to bouncing out of the hole with the hips. The anti-hip-drahve, if you will.

B-b-but… YNDTP!!!

[mgil]

Anyone work with / find any use for stuff like slow count negatives, pauses (other than on bench), drop sets, supersets, etc.?

It's all useful.

Here's how I've used them (but the utility certainly isn't limited to what I'm listing):

Slow count negatives are great for technique/body-control and for inducing fatigue with relatively light loads.

Pauses are great for training stability / bracing / balance

Drop sets are great for hypertrophy (I think most folks probably neglect the hypertrophy potential of fatigue resistant muscle fiber).

I use supersets all the time, but primarily for time efficiency.

The "mind-muscle" thing is legit. I can absolutely alter total recruitment and recruitment patterns of the primary movers in a given lift via volition.

This is a good general post.

I’d add that isolation work is sometimes useful also to build awareness and proprioception. Doing this hip rehab is reminding me of this daily.

[Hardartery]

Anyone work with / find any use for stuff like slow count negatives, pauses (other than on bench), drop sets, supersets, etc.?

Guy where I lift is a strongman competitor who is stupid strong but just loves shit like 8s with a 4-count negative, preaching the mind muscle connection, and unilateral exercises. It’s so odd (or so it seems) but can’t argue with the results.

All of that stuff. Negatives are good for hypertrophy, and they also help build anaerobic capacity for events (Strongman in particular requires this, much more than straight 1RM ability). The dropsets and supersets will do that as well, as well as building your recruitment and overall control of your muscles. It all goes towards being strong in general as opposed to strong in a particular groove or narrow window of action. You will absolutely get thicker as well.
***I am basically agreeing with what Hanley said in his post.

[Hanley]

Anyone work with / find any use for stuff like slow count negatives, pauses (other than on bench), drop sets, supersets, etc.?

It's all useful.

Here's how I've used them (but the utility certainly isn't limited to what I'm listing):

Slow count negatives are great for technique/body-control and for inducing fatigue with relatively light loads.

Pauses are great for training stability / bracing / balance

Drop sets are great for hypertrophy (I think most folks probably neglect the hypertrophy potential of fatigue resistant muscle fiber).

I use supersets all the time, but primarily for time efficiency.

The "mind-muscle" thing is legit. I can absolutely alter total recruitment and recruitment patterns of the primary movers in a given lift via volition.

IIRC, you also use partials for hypertrophy, at least for chest - have you tried them with anything else?

Eh, not really. I'll use them for overload on dead and bench (upper part of ROM).

[DCR]

The slow negatives / eccentrics are where most of my interest lies right now.

Same. My last session, I did a three or four count eccentric, depending on the movement, on everything. Taking a break from lifting heavy felt great (no shit), and it was far easier to both concentrate on exploding on the concentric and on using the muscles that I intended to use. That said, I also immediately was reminded of why I abandoned the technique each time that I tried it in the past - counting the negatives drives me crazy and take all the fun out of the lift, much like timing rest periods makes sessions seem like a chore to me. Next time in, I’m going to see if I can maintain the discipline to slow the negatives to a worthwhile degree without an actual rep count, and how that feels.

[Renascent]

The slow negatives / eccentrics are where most of my interest lies right now.

Next time in, I’m going to see if I can maintain the discipline to slow the negatives to a worthwhile degree without an actual rep count, and how that feels.

Pretty much.

I realized a long time ago that I probably lack the discipline to actively count on the eccentric, because you're right -- it's boring as shit. Hell, I barely track my rest times properly.

I try to focus on an explosive concentric and slow the eccentric enough to make it take noticeably longer than usual for greater time under tension. I've seen some positive results thus far, but I'd like to try a whole-body application and just full-bro it for a while, just to see what happens.

[DCR]

I try to focus on an explosive concentric and slow the eccentric enough to make it take noticeably longer than usual for greater time under tension. I've seen some positive results thus far, but I'd like to try a whole-body application and just full-bro it for a while, just to see what happens.

Yes, exactly. I’m doing it. Had a first session earlier this week and felt great - had been a minute since I’d felt like I was controlling the weights, and not the other way around. My only concerns are (1) my right knee didn’t feel so hot after, which has happened before with slow negatives on lower body stuff; and (2) this isn’t my first rodeo with this and I know how it goes off the rails - eventually I lose my concentration or start pushing weight at the expense of the intended form, and one day I wake up and am no longer doing it at all. At that point, all I’ve accomplished is having program hopped for nothing, with the nagging feeling that I did it in the first place to pussy out of heavier weights. Hopefully logging it sorta publicly this time will help. As I’ve said before, though, I need a full mindset change about training.

[Renascent]

I try to focus on an explosive concentric and slow the eccentric enough to make it take noticeably longer than usual for greater time under tension. I've seen some positive results thus far, but I'd like to try a whole-body application and just full-bro it for a while, just to see what happens.

Yes, exactly.  I’m doing it.  Had a first session earlier this week and felt great - had been a minute since I’d felt like I was controlling the weights, and not the other way around.  My only concerns are (1) my right knee didn’t feel so hot after, which has happened before with slow negatives on lower body stuff; and (2) this isn’t my first rodeo with this and I know how it goes off the rails - eventually I lose my concentration or start pushing weight at the expense of the intended form, and one day I wake up and am no longer doing it at all.  At that point, all I’ve accomplished is having program hopped for nothing, with the nagging feeling that I did it in the first place to pussy out of heavier weights.  Hopefully logging it sorta publicly this time will help.  As I’ve said before, though, I need a full mindset change about training.

I can relate.

I've never followed an actual program -- aside from a few short forays into poorly-bastardized Medhi "programming" way back -- but thankfully at some point early on I convinced myself to start setting powerbuilding "goals" as a way of tracking progress in some reliable fashion. Sometimes I have to deviate from a set goal, and it's happened enough times that I'm generally okay with it at this point.

Still trying to convince myself that it's okay to step away from the heavier weights from time to time -- it just sucks when I want to climb the mountain again and become impatient with regaining lost strength/endurance.

But I'd be lying if I said I don't often enjoy just trying to focus on a muscle purely for the sake of growth. I fall into that trap of pushing weight increases on accessories as a priority over loftier goals pretty often. It's usually hitting a wall of fatigue that forces me to step back at some point and realize that I can still amass some growth with lighter weights and a bit of that focus that inevitably gets lost along the way.

One thing I really need to get a handle on with this eccentric stuff is recovery, though. The novelty of cramps and "benign" fasciculations is starting to wear off.

[DCR]

I find pauses to be useful for targeting the quads during squats. Pausing during an SSB or high bar squat makes it easier to drive with the quads out of the bottom as opposed to bouncing out of the hole with the hips. The anti-hip-drahve, if you will.

I find that to be true even with LBBS to a lesser but material extent.

Did these with HBBS yesterday - the second time that I did HBBS in the last decade or so since my SS brainwashing - and they felt incredible. I may have said this the one other time I tried them in the past few years, but it felt like being 24 again, because HBBS were all that I did pre-brainwashing. The groove felt perfect, and my quads were trashed this morning, which hasn't happened in forever. LBBS obviously never did it, and I always fail front squats via my upper back rounding long before my legs are done. I'm not judging the quality of the session on soreness, but this is a good feeling.