Don't Weigh Me

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alek
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Re: Don't Weigh Me

#81

Post by alek » Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:26 pm

Hanley wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:17 am
alek wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:27 am
asdf wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:56 am The full downloadable PDF is available on ResearchGate:

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... a-analysis
Well there went the wind in my sails...
I'm sure you have an enviable waist to height ratio.
Ah!!

I meant it in the context of finding some interesting bits about the paper and sharing them with the forum. Then @asdf comes in with the link to a free download, and I feel like a schmuck...

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Hardartery
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Re: Don't Weigh Me

#82

Post by Hardartery » Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:31 pm

asdf wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:06 pm
Hardartery wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:30 am waist measurement in isolation isn't very useful
That was hardly the conclusion of the paper. But carry on...
The conclusion of the paper was that a ratio of waist circumference to height may be better than BMI (weight to height). It didn't mention any absolute number for WC or elevate it as a prediction tool, becasue it isn't a great predictor on its own. WC is probably better than weight because it eliminates the amount of lean tissue you carry as a factor, you can be whatever weight you want if your fat level is within reason (WC being used as a predictor of fat level in the study). It makes a lot more sense as a metric than BMI. Still didn't see anything about 37" in there.

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Re: Don't Weigh Me

#83

Post by JohnHelton » Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:33 pm

I'm going to agree with @Hardartery here. BMI is useful with the general population, as is WC. WC data from the general population will show increasing risk as the WC gets larger. That is just common sense and has been shown in the data. There will even be obvious points in that data where the risk increases (say >40"). All that being said, the risk for each individual will vary at any particular WC. Other factors have to be considered. It would be interesting to see the data analysed using both BMI and WC simultaneously. Or height, weight, and WC...same thing.

In generally I use the YMCA formula to determine my "body fat". I put it in quotes, because I know the number is wrong. Every estimate you get is wrong. However, they can be directionally interesting and informative. The YMCA formula uses WC + weight. I wish it also included height, but my height hasn't changed for awhile, so I'm okay factoring that variable out. Directionally it doesn't matter.

At the end of the day, one can look in a mirror and judge how fat they are. If your stomach is rolling over the top of your jeans, then you have a few lbs to lose. If you just have softness around the middle, but no real unsightly lumps, then you are probably fine...especially if you aren't totally sedentary.

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Re: Don't Weigh Me

#84

Post by asdf » Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:02 pm

Hardartery wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:31 pm
asdf wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:06 pm
Hardartery wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:30 am waist measurement in isolation isn't very useful
That was hardly the conclusion of the paper. But carry on...
The conclusion of the paper was that a ratio of waist circumference to height may be better than BMI (weight to height).
That wasn't the conclusion either.

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Hanley
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Re: Don't Weigh Me

#85

Post by Hanley » Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:13 pm

alek wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:26 pm
Hanley wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:17 am
alek wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:27 am
asdf wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:56 am The full downloadable PDF is available on ResearchGate:

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... a-analysis
Well there went the wind in my sails...
I'm sure you have an enviable waist to height ratio.
Ah!!

I meant it in the context of finding some interesting bits about the paper and sharing them with the forum. Then @asdf comes in with the link to a free download, and I feel like a schmuck...
Oh, I know. You svelte thing.

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quikky
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Re: Don't Weigh Me

#86

Post by quikky » Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:21 pm

JohnHelton wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:33 pm I'm going to agree with @Hardartery here. BMI is useful with the general population, as is WC. WC data from the general population will show increasing risk as the WC gets larger. That is just common sense and has been shown in the data. There will even be obvious points in that data where the risk increases (say >40"). All that being said, the risk for each individual will vary at any particular WC. Other factors have to be considered. It would be interesting to see the data analysed using both BMI and WC simultaneously. Or height, weight, and WC...same thing.
I think it's just a matter of looking at statistical risk. If having a 40" waist increases your risk of developing diabetes say 3x, that's a statistical risk. An invidual might be a statistic, or might be an outlier. Point is, the risk is there and applies to all, you just can't predict which side of the weighed coin a particular individual will land on.

So, if you are making bets with chronic disease coins, what makes the most sense if your goal is to win? Use coind that have a higher chance of success. Yeah, maybe you're one of the outliers and that large waist won't kill you prematurely, but why not lower it and weigh the coin in your favor? Arguing about the exactness of things like WC misses the point, and like I said, it's a spectrum anyways, with certain broadly observed levels of risk around 37" for elevated risk, and 40" for highly elevated. Said differently, statistically speaking, the coin is weighed in your favor if your waist is less than 37". As you approach 37" and go to 40" and above, the coin becomes weighed more and more against you, and almost exponentially so the further you go.

I don't see a good reason for a non-pro lifter to bet against statistical risk, hoping they're an outlier. Doesn't make sense to me. You don't need abs but neither do you need to carry a 37"+ waist to participate in your lifting hobby.

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Re: Don't Weigh Me

#87

Post by GlasgowJock » Sat Feb 05, 2022 3:46 am

quikky wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:21 pm I don't see a good reason for a non-pro lifter to bet against statistical risk, hoping they're an outlier. Doesn't make sense to me. You don't need abs but neither do you need to carry a 37"+ waist to participate in your lifting hobby.
Fully agreed.

I understand the point made earlier that there are plenty of instances where you use more than one variable to better determine probability of risk, but in this instance the greater your waist circumference (the 'fatter' you are) the higher the probability of risk for various comorbidity through time.

Probably blokes on SS looking at Eddie Hall with abs at ~330lb thinking 'yea that's totally me!' while chugging a gallon of full fat chocolate milk and doing 15 sets of squats a week.

Man this feels like that amusing BB forum debate about training every other day, how many days/ week am I training haha.

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Re: Don't Weigh Me

#88

Post by alek » Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:17 am

Hanley wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:13 pm
alek wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:26 pm
Hanley wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:17 am
alek wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:27 am
asdf wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:56 am The full downloadable PDF is available on ResearchGate:

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... a-analysis
Well there went the wind in my sails...
I'm sure you have an enviable waist to height ratio.
Ah!!

I meant it in the context of finding some interesting bits about the paper and sharing them with the forum. Then @asdf comes in with the link to a free download, and I feel like a schmuck...
Oh, I know. You svelte thing.
Oh, I bet you say that to all the boys. #blushing

I hope @EricK doesn’t get jealous.
Last edited by alek on Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JohnHelton
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Re: Don't Weigh Me

#89

Post by JohnHelton » Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:21 am

quikky wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:21 pm An invidual might be a statistic, or might be an outlier. Point is, the risk is there and applies to all, you just can't predict which side of the weighed coin a particular individual will land on.
@quikky I agree with almost everything you said, except the statement above. You can't predict which side of the weighted coin a particular individual will land on...without more information.

Even with that said, if a particularly large person with a 40"+ waist has a lower than average risk of CVD, etc. for their given waist size, their risk would still go down if they were to lose some fat. I was making more of an academic point. In reality, if you have a big waist (big being somewhat relative), then that increases your mortality risk.

Personally, I struggle with the amount of risk I'm willing to take. Currently, I may be pushing too little risk as I'm also interested in absolute strength. Everyone has their own level of risk tolerance. If one has more risk tolerance, they have more freedom to act (eat), but that doesn't mean that there aren't consequences. They just may be willing to accept those consequences. That said, I do think it is a problem to think there isn't increased risk and potential consequences. This is the problem with the HAES movement.

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quikky
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Re: Don't Weigh Me

#90

Post by quikky » Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:58 am

JohnHelton wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:21 am
quikky wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:21 pm An invidual might be a statistic, or might be an outlier. Point is, the risk is there and applies to all, you just can't predict which side of the weighed coin a particular individual will land on.
@quikky I agree with almost everything you said, except the statement above. You can't predict which side of the weighted coin a particular individual will land on...without more information.

Even with that said, if a particularly large person with a 40"+ waist has a lower than average risk of CVD, etc. for their given waist size, their risk would still go down if they were to lose some fat. I was making more of an academic point. In reality, if you have a big waist (big being somewhat relative), then that increases your mortality risk.

Personally, I struggle with the amount of risk I'm willing to take. Currently, I may be pushing too little risk as I'm also interested in absolute strength. Everyone has their own level of risk tolerance. If one has more risk tolerance, they have more freedom to act (eat), but that doesn't mean that there aren't consequences. They just may be willing to accept those consequences. That said, I do think it is a problem to think there isn't increased risk and potential consequences. This is the problem with the HAES movement.
I am not sure we even disagree. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but I think we're saying the same thing. Something like WC is a risk factor, or a variable, if you will. On its own it has its own statistical risk. However, the more variables you have, the more accurate the risk assessment, whether for a broad population, or for an individual. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

Even in terms of actual medical guidance, all the variables are taken into consideration. An otherwise healthy man with a 40" waist should be advised to lose weight, because that alone is a risk factor. However, if that man has an A1C that is creeping up and a family history of heart disease, he should be very strongly advised to lose weight, because there are additonal variables that increase his risk. The thing is, WC remains a risk factor in both cases, even as a standalone variable, but in the latter case the risk is even higher because of additonal risk variables.

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Re: Don't Weigh Me

#91

Post by JohnHelton » Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:01 am

quikky wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:58 am I am not sure we even disagree.
We don't disagree.

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Re: Don't Weigh Me

#92

Post by asdf » Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:07 am

quikky wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:58 am the more variables you have, the more accurate the risk assessment, whether for a broad population, or for an individual. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
One of the conclusions of the paper is that WC (a single variable) is a better predictor than BMI, which uses two variables.

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Re: Don't Weigh Me

#93

Post by quikky » Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:42 am

asdf wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:07 am
quikky wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:58 am the more variables you have, the more accurate the risk assessment, whether for a broad population, or for an individual. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
One of the conclusions of the paper is that WC (a single variable) is a better predictor than BMI, which uses two variables.
Variable might be a poor word here on my part. Maybe "risk measurement" or something? I consider BMI a single risk measurement in this context, even though it is based on two factors. BMI vs WC vs WtHR are all single risk measurements of varying accuracy.

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Re: Don't Weigh Me

#94

Post by convergentsum » Sat Feb 05, 2022 3:47 pm

At 6'2, WtHR and WC thresholds amount to the same value! I'm just aiming to get down to 90kg by end of march (still overweight according to BMI) and reassess from there.

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