Don't Weigh Me

[mettkeks]

Speaking of BMI, while a flawed metric, I think too many people in lifting circles think they're too jacked for BMI to apply to them. I am certain that the vast majority of folks here, as an example, with an obese BMI, are carrying too much body fat. They might not be flat out fatty McFatfats, but they're underestimating how much fat they really have. I bet the number of people with, say a 33" waist and a 30+ BMI is very low. This would be a 5'10" dude that weighs over 210lbs with a waist that size. If that's you, congrats, you're too jacked for BMI.

Agree. You need to be pro-card level jacked AND OVER 20% BF in order to be "too jacked" for BMI.

[cgeorgiev]

Speaking of BMI, while a flawed metric, I think too many people in lifting circles think they're too jacked for BMI to apply to them. I am certain that the vast majority of folks here, as an example, with an obese BMI, are carrying too much body fat. They might not be flat out fatty McFatfats, but they're underestimating how much fat they really have. I bet the number of people with, say a 33" waist and a 30+ BMI is very low. This would be a 5'10" dude that weighs over 210lbs with a waist that size. If that's you, congrats, you're too jacked for BMI.

I'm 5' 9" with a 33" waist at >200 and I still look like a DYEL manlet.

I read about these cards on/fit/ the other day. What are the implications of just letting these people believe whatever delusion they want? These days people will try and ruin your life/livelihood if you slightly disagree with them. I'm getting wise and keeping my mouth shut.

[Culican]

I posted this in the corona thread a few days ago. The Forgotten History Of Fat Men's Clubs. I think the progression is interesting. In 1903 attaining 200lbs allowed you to join the Fat Man's Club. Now according to SS, you are not an adult male until you are 200lb.

I remember when I had one session with the SSC/RD Santa Ana back in 2015. I weighed about 195lb at the time and visibly carried too much fat. Santa Ana encouraged me to put on more weight. I ignored him.

[Philbert]

Sure but studies show that the gal will have a small chance of losing only 10% of her bodyweight and keeping most of it off. Also the studies point to a 10% weight loss bringing the majority of health gains.
Should she have gotten that big to begin with? Should I have? Are there reasons?
Fun fact: where I currently teach, due to lead levels it is unsafe for kids to drink the tap water. Which is more available and cheaper in the local bodega: bottled water or C&C cola?
ETA I’m not saying Doctors shouldn’t be weighing people, but I am saying that if you are fat shaming people, that’s not cool. I’d call you a shitty person, but then I’d be shit-shaming

To your last point, doctors are often relying on heuristics to do their jobs, and weight is one of the factors that would come into that. If anything, in borderline cases, weight would be more noise than anything else. Athletes for instance that are in good shape but have high BMIs, or Senor Cardgage skinny-fat types that may be "healthy weight" but unhealthy body composition or whatever, would both be cases where the actual number on the scale is irrelevant.

And for people that are obviously visually overweight/obese - or severe underweight for that matter, does the number on the scale actually matter? Does it matter if the 5'6" 250 girl is really 235 or 265 (assuming not tracking weight change due to an intervention)?

Doctors need to be weighing people routinely as part of preventative health,not because they can then tell the 5'6" 250 pounder to lose weight, but so that when the 250 pounder does start to lose weight despite not changing anything significant about their life the doctor can start looking for the cancer. And if the pt was gaining 5 lbs per year for the last 10 years and is suddenly up 40 lbs in a year somebody needs to check a thyroid panel.
WRT fat shaming, it is unproductive to tell strangers they are fat. but I personally know two people saved from rapidly developing obesity by family members bluntly telling them they were getting fat

[DoctorWho]

How do we live in a fatphobic society when people are getting fatter?

If anything, we are in a fatphilic or at least fat-enabling society.

You're right, but it would mean that words have meaning.

[murphyreedus]

WRT fat shaming, it is unproductive to tell strangers they are fat. but I personally know two people saved from rapidly developing obesity by family members bluntly telling them they were getting fat

Small children asking things like "are you having a baby too, like my mommy?" are also an effective wake-up call.

[Allentown]

Sure but studies show that the gal will have a small chance of losing only 10% of her bodyweight and keeping most of it off. Also the studies point to a 10% weight loss bringing the majority of health gains.
Should she have gotten that big to begin with? Should I have? Are there reasons?
Fun fact: where I currently teach, due to lead levels it is unsafe for kids to drink the tap water. Which is more available and cheaper in the local bodega: bottled water or C&C cola?
ETA I’m not saying Doctors shouldn’t be weighing people, but I am saying that if you are fat shaming people, that’s not cool. I’d call you a shitty person, but then I’d be shit-shaming

To your last point, doctors are often relying on heuristics to do their jobs, and weight is one of the factors that would come into that. If anything, in borderline cases, weight would be more noise than anything else. Athletes for instance that are in good shape but have high BMIs, or Senor Cardgage skinny-fat types that may be "healthy weight" but unhealthy body composition or whatever, would both be cases where the actual number on the scale is irrelevant.

Jordan and Austin have talked a little about this in the BBM podcast, and it seemed like they were of the opinion that, regardless of Jackitude, BMI in the 30 range still increased all cause morality?

[Brackish]

Speaking of BMI, while a flawed metric, I think too many people in lifting circles think they're too jacked for BMI to apply to them. I am certain that the vast majority of folks here, as an example, with an obese BMI, are carrying too much body fat. They might not be flat out fatty McFatfats, but they're underestimating how much fat they really have. I bet the number of people with, say a 33" waist and a 30+ BMI is very low. This would be a 5'10" dude that weighs over 210lbs with a waist that size. If that's you, congrats, you're too jacked for BMI.

I'm 5' 9" with a 33" waist at >200 and I still look like a DYEL manlet.

I read about these cards on/fit/ the other day. What are the implications of just letting these people believe whatever delusion they want? These days people will try and ruin your life/livelihood if you slightly disagree with them. I'm getting wise and keeping my mouth shut.

HOW!? You should be jacked.

I'm 5' 9/10" (currently trying, unsuccessfully, to bulk), and I'm sitting at 158-160lbs w/ a 32.5" waist. I feel like I would look like an absolute monster if I could even get to like 185lbs while maintaining my current waist size.

[GrainsAndGains]

Sure but studies show that the gal will have a small chance of losing only 10% of her bodyweight and keeping most of it off. Also the studies point to a 10% weight loss bringing the majority of health gains.
Should she have gotten that big to begin with? Should I have? Are there reasons?
Fun fact: where I currently teach, due to lead levels it is unsafe for kids to drink the tap water. Which is more available and cheaper in the local bodega: bottled water or C&C cola?
ETA I’m not saying Doctors shouldn’t be weighing people, but I am saying that if you are fat shaming people, that’s not cool. I’d call you a shitty person, but then I’d be shit-shaming

To your last point, doctors are often relying on heuristics to do their jobs, and weight is one of the factors that would come into that. If anything, in borderline cases, weight would be more noise than anything else. Athletes for instance that are in good shape but have high BMIs, or Senor Cardgage skinny-fat types that may be "healthy weight" but unhealthy body composition or whatever, would both be cases where the actual number on the scale is irrelevant.

Jordan and Austin have talked a little about this in the BBM podcast, and it seemed like they were of the opinion that, regardless of Jackitude, BMI in the 30 range still increased all cause morality?

It would probably be difficult to achieve that ideal powerbuilder physique everyone seems to want - body fat less than or equal to 15% with a ton of muscle mass - and have a BMI over 30. At least for the average amateur meathead who isn't genetically gifted.

I'm 5'9" - would need to be around 203 to break the 30 BMI threshold. I would have to add a LOT of muscle to weight 203 and have body fat at 15%.

[Hardartery]

I don't know what's going on with most of the guys posting about BMI, but if you lift and fall easily with in the BMI numbers then maybe you should re-evalute your lifting and try something effective. I am not skinny, if i cut all the way to 240lbs at my height of 6'-0 I would have some visible abs and still be over 30 BMI. Most guys that lift SHOULD be in the upper 20's of BMI unless they have osteoporosis or are incapable of building muscle. At 19 y/o I had a 29" waist and a 40" chest and as close to a 6-pack as I can get, I was not jacked or massive and weighed 175 lbs. I was actively trying to reach 180 lbs and failing. I got married and that fixed weight gain problems. I actually looked better at 200 lbs and I was not really lifting much and doing zero lower body work. I didn't do my first squat until I was 27. So, how is it that guys doing a full program that is even mildly effective NOT be up there on the BMI? Most guys have no need to be above 20% bodyfat, in the same way that getting below 15% isn't a great idea and falls into the same "Need" category. People's idea of ideal is pretty skewed, and delusion is abundant in the entire population.
Now that I will appear to have flamed a bunch of people, I'll break down what I'm saying a little. Lifting results in more than lean mass gain - or at least should. One of the prime reasons to lift (And this actually goes double for women) is bone density. Lifting weights increase bone density, it has a very direct correlation. And by lifting I do not mean curls, I mean load bearing exercises that stress the frame like Squats and Deadlifts. Everyone should get bone density scan at some point before they are old to establish a baseline. I know that in my case my density score is absurdly high, in spite of living at most of my life with a progressive condition that causes osteoporosis among other things. A big chunk of my weight is the bone I carry around, and the more I lift the heavier they will get. Add to that increased size for connective tissues and muscle mass (Tendons and ligaments should be experiencing hypertrophy of some flavour by way of lifting and repetitive use), and you arrive at a point where it would require being absurdly thin to the point of being unhealthy to get a BMI in range. The taller you are, the easier it is to top out that BMI, the calculations are a little skewed.
I saw that 200 lbs was the line to get into a fat man's cub at the turn of the century. Have you guys ever seen a WW1 soldier's uniform? Or maybe been through the Holocaust museum and seen all of the unifors on there? People were frigging tiny. We are significantly taller as a people these days, as well as carrying much larger frames, than the average man 100 years ago. The average height then versus now, for example, might shock you to look up. So, 200 lbs being heavy back then has very little bearing on what is heavy today. That's like saying the bar is the same for me and the avrage Philippino male. Which is a laughable idea.

[Brackish]

I don't know what's going on with most of the guys posting about BMI, but if you lift and fall easily with in the BMI numbers then maybe you should re-evalute your lifting and try something effective. I am not skinny, if i cut all the way to 240lbs at my height of 6'-0 I would have some visible abs and still be over 30 BMI. Most guys that lift SHOULD be in the upper 20's of BMI unless they have osteoporosis or are incapable of building muscle.

I don't want to be that guy, but do you happen to have any research supporting these statements? Saying every guy that lifts effectively should be in the over-weight or obese category seems like a bit of a stretch...

[mettkeks]

Sure but studies show that the gal will have a small chance of losing only 10% of her bodyweight and keeping most of it off. Also the studies point to a 10% weight loss bringing the majority of health gains.
Should she have gotten that big to begin with? Should I have? Are there reasons?
Fun fact: where I currently teach, due to lead levels it is unsafe for kids to drink the tap water. Which is more available and cheaper in the local bodega: bottled water or C&C cola?
ETA I’m not saying Doctors shouldn’t be weighing people, but I am saying that if you are fat shaming people, that’s not cool. I’d call you a shitty person, but then I’d be shit-shaming

To your last point, doctors are often relying on heuristics to do their jobs, and weight is one of the factors that would come into that. If anything, in borderline cases, weight would be more noise than anything else. Athletes for instance that are in good shape but have high BMIs, or Senor Cardgage skinny-fat types that may be "healthy weight" but unhealthy body composition or whatever, would both be cases where the actual number on the scale is irrelevant.

Jordan and Austin have talked a little about this in the BBM podcast, and it seemed like they were of the opinion that, regardless of Jackitude, BMI in the 30 range still increased all cause morality?

It would probably be difficult to achieve that ideal powerbuilder physique everyone seems to want - body fat less than or equal to 15% with a ton of muscle mass - and have a BMI over 30. At least for the average amateur meathead who isn't genetically gifted.

I'm 5'9" - would need to be around 203 to break the 30 BMI threshold. I would have to add a LOT of muscle to weight 203 and have body fat at 15%.

5'8-9'' 195lb ~18-20% 29 BMI

[quikky]

I don't know what's going on with most of the guys posting about BMI, but if you lift and fall easily with in the BMI numbers then maybe you should re-evalute your lifting and try something effective. I am not skinny, if i cut all the way to 240lbs at my height of 6'-0 I would have some visible abs and still be over 30 BMI. Most guys that lift SHOULD be in the upper 20's of BMI unless they have osteoporosis or are incapable of building muscle.

I don't want to be that guy, but do you happen to have any research supporting these statements? Saying every guy that lifts effectively should be in the over-weight or obese category seems like a bit of a stretch...

I'd also be curious what @Hardartery's weight and waist measurements are now. "Visible abs" is an almost meaningless term. I had a 40" waist at my peak SS/TM days and you could still see an outline of my upper abs. Rippetoe claims visible abs at like 5'9" and 220lbs, with a clearly visible belly. If I had to guess, even a pretty strong dude at 6 foot and 240lbs is going to be chunky (guessing 40" waist or so).

[mettkeks]

I don't know what's going on with most of the guys posting about BMI, but if you lift and fall easily with in the BMI numbers then maybe you should re-evalute your lifting and try something effective. I am not skinny, if i cut all the way to 240lbs at my height of 6'-0 I would have some visible abs and still be over 30 BMI. Most guys that lift SHOULD be in the upper 20's of BMI unless they have osteoporosis or are incapable of building muscle.

I don't want to be that guy, but do you happen to have any research supporting these statements? Saying every guy that lifts effectively should be in the over-weight or obese category seems like a bit of a stretch...

Overweight i.e. >25 is easy. Obese? GTFO.

[mettkeks]

German Natural PRO BB champion 6', 220 at ~18% BF, 29.8 BMI

[GrainsAndGains]

Sure but studies show that the gal will have a small chance of losing only 10% of her bodyweight and keeping most of it off. Also the studies point to a 10% weight loss bringing the majority of health gains.
Should she have gotten that big to begin with? Should I have? Are there reasons?
Fun fact: where I currently teach, due to lead levels it is unsafe for kids to drink the tap water. Which is more available and cheaper in the local bodega: bottled water or C&C cola?
ETA I’m not saying Doctors shouldn’t be weighing people, but I am saying that if you are fat shaming people, that’s not cool. I’d call you a shitty person, but then I’d be shit-shaming

To your last point, doctors are often relying on heuristics to do their jobs, and weight is one of the factors that would come into that. If anything, in borderline cases, weight would be more noise than anything else. Athletes for instance that are in good shape but have high BMIs, or Senor Cardgage skinny-fat types that may be "healthy weight" but unhealthy body composition or whatever, would both be cases where the actual number on the scale is irrelevant.

Jordan and Austin have talked a little about this in the BBM podcast, and it seemed like they were of the opinion that, regardless of Jackitude, BMI in the 30 range still increased all cause morality?

It would probably be difficult to achieve that ideal powerbuilder physique everyone seems to want - body fat less than or equal to 15% with a ton of muscle mass - and have a BMI over 30. At least for the average amateur meathead who isn't genetically gifted.

I'm 5'9" - would need to be around 203 to break the 30 BMI threshold. I would have to add a LOT of muscle to weight 203 and have body fat at 15%.

5'8-9'' 195lb ~18-20% 29 BMI

He has a great physique in both pictures but I'm skeptical that that's 18-20% body fat.

[GlasgowJock]

He has a great physique in both pictures but I'm skeptical that that's 18-20% body fat.

Agreed tbh, struggling to believe that chap is 18-20% bf in his 195lb pic...

[Hardartery]

I don't know what's going on with most of the guys posting about BMI, but if you lift and fall easily with in the BMI numbers then maybe you should re-evalute your lifting and try something effective. I am not skinny, if i cut all the way to 240lbs at my height of 6'-0 I would have some visible abs and still be over 30 BMI. Most guys that lift SHOULD be in the upper 20's of BMI unless they have osteoporosis or are incapable of building muscle.

I don't want to be that guy, but do you happen to have any research supporting these statements? Saying every guy that lifts effectively should be in the over-weight or obese category seems like a bit of a stretch...

From the CDC:
"If an athlete or other person with a lot of muscle has a BMI over 25, is that person still considered to be overweight?
According to the BMI weight status categories, anyone with a BMI between 25 and 29.9 would be classified as overweight and anyone with a BMI over 30 would be classified as having obesity.

However, athletes may have a high BMI because of increased muscularity rather than increased body fatness. In general, a person who has a high BMI is likely to have body fatness and would be considered to be overweight or obese, but this may not apply to athletes. A trained healthcare provider should perform appropriate health assessments to evaluate an individual’s health status and risks."
I'm saying, everyone is differrent and results may vary, yada yada yada... but IF you aren't pushing that BMI envelope and you lift AND you have the intention of developing better muscle mass and strength than someone that does not lift, then maybe you are doing it wrong and should reevaluate your program. Or you have bird bones.

[mettkeks]

Sure but studies show that the gal will have a small chance of losing only 10% of her bodyweight and keeping most of it off. Also the studies point to a 10% weight loss bringing the majority of health gains.
Should she have gotten that big to begin with? Should I have? Are there reasons?
Fun fact: where I currently teach, due to lead levels it is unsafe for kids to drink the tap water. Which is more available and cheaper in the local bodega: bottled water or C&C cola?
ETA I’m not saying Doctors shouldn’t be weighing people, but I am saying that if you are fat shaming people, that’s not cool. I’d call you a shitty person, but then I’d be shit-shaming

To your last point, doctors are often relying on heuristics to do their jobs, and weight is one of the factors that would come into that. If anything, in borderline cases, weight would be more noise than anything else. Athletes for instance that are in good shape but have high BMIs, or Senor Cardgage skinny-fat types that may be "healthy weight" but unhealthy body composition or whatever, would both be cases where the actual number on the scale is irrelevant.

Jordan and Austin have talked a little about this in the BBM podcast, and it seemed like they were of the opinion that, regardless of Jackitude, BMI in the 30 range still increased all cause morality?

It would probably be difficult to achieve that ideal powerbuilder physique everyone seems to want - body fat less than or equal to 15% with a ton of muscle mass - and have a BMI over 30. At least for the average amateur meathead who isn't genetically gifted.

I'm 5'9" - would need to be around 203 to break the 30 BMI threshold. I would have to add a LOT of muscle to weight 203 and have body fat at 15%.

5'8-9'' 195lb ~18-20% 29 BMI

He has a great physique in both pictures but I'm skeptical that that's 18-20% body fat.

He competes at around 160. His Goal in that post is the high 150's. 18% BF at 195 is 160lbs.

[Hardartery]

I don't know what's going on with most of the guys posting about BMI, but if you lift and fall easily with in the BMI numbers then maybe you should re-evalute your lifting and try something effective. I am not skinny, if i cut all the way to 240lbs at my height of 6'-0 I would have some visible abs and still be over 30 BMI. Most guys that lift SHOULD be in the upper 20's of BMI unless they have osteoporosis or are incapable of building muscle.

I don't want to be that guy, but do you happen to have any research supporting these statements? Saying every guy that lifts effectively should be in the over-weight or obese category seems like a bit of a stretch...

I'd also be curious what @Hardartery's weight and waist measurements are now. "Visible abs" is an almost meaningless term. I had a 40" waist at my peak SS/TM days and you could still see an outline of my upper abs. Rippetoe claims visible abs at like 5'9" and 220lbs, with a clearly visible belly. If I had to guess, even a pretty strong dude at 6 foot and 240lbs is going to be chunky (guessing 40" waist or so).

The last time I was down to 240 lbs I had a 36" waist. I carry more muscle now, specifically in my shoulders and chest, so who knows what would happen if I cut that far again. I am trying to slowly get to 260 lbs as a cruising weight right now, even though I am honestly most comfortable at 275. BMI is a lousy measure of health, and in no way something to be too bent about. Correlation is not causation, and BMI is based 100% on specualative correlation. There are actual legitimate empirical measurements to determine your health. Obviously people are a fatter than necessary in general in Western society. They are also much larger in other ways than historically, which is largely credited to our ancestors being stunted by inadequate amounts of food and malnutrition. They weren't growing as big as they would have if they had enough food available. Now ther's plenty of food but it's too calorie dense and people don't get enough physical activity. Plenty of men are pursuing an arbitrary ideal based on nothing but conjecture and personal preference - and calling it healthy to try and make it seem like a legitimate pursuit. Then they criticize other people for having different values and objectives. What can you or I tell from some social media pictures of a guy flexing? Not much, they prove nothing. And I'll add that the guy with the hair that I've seen posted more than once on here is not big by any stretch based on the pics. Low bodyfat sure, big no. Stand him next to someone else and you will get a completely different idea of how big or little he actually is. And certainly a thing like overall bodyweight without consideration for height or build as an arbitrary value is ridiculous. When the guy that's 5'-9 is noticeably taller than everyone else in the room 200 lbs is a different metric than when 5'-10 is the average height in the room.
My BP checked out, along with all of my blood work, at my last physical a month ago, and I was 290 on the doctor's scale and had been in the US for a couple of weeks eating horribly. Was by BF% more than 15? Yep, I'm sure it was more than 20%, but less than 30%. I would be fine with 18-20% all of the time, it's a very healthy range and I would still be way over into "Obese" on the BMI.