Rare coins

[zappey1]

This is probably a strange forum to talk about this but does anyone collect/invest in rare coins? If so what coins have you found to be good investments and or cool to collect and own?

I have always wanted to start a collection and just ordered my first one! Finally I will have a reason to own a treasure chest

[murphyreedus]

I had a pretty sweet collection going when I was a kid, and a small silver stack from when the price went into free-fall a few years ago. I don't think any of it's "investment-grade" stuff, but cool to look at once and a while. My brother also gives my kids silver eagles for christmas/birthdays, so they will be set for the inevitable collapse of fiat currency.

What did you get?

[mgil]

Same boat as @murphyreedus.

I’ve got some old coins like a flying eagle penny and a good number of old silver dollars and proof sets, but it’s mainly for something cool to look at as opposed to a financial investment. But it’s something cool that retains some level of values.

[Hardartery]

That's a pretty open ended question. Mostly old US coins are valuable, and gold coins. Depends on the coin, and what else you have. Certain years and mints are rare, and certain "Errors". Most so-called collectible coins aren't valuable and will never sell for what the original collector paid unless you find a sucker. 1964 and older US coins at least carry silver value. Pennies are a little tricky, it's illegal to melt a penny in the US so they do not convey copper melt value even if they are older actual copper coins. Some half dollars and old dollar coins are valuable, but most are really just melt price for silver. They need to be graded and all that jazz to really get the money and the better the grade the more money. Some o the very old Canadia ctuff is valuable. Srprisingly the REALLY old stuff, like Roman and Greek coins are not particularly valuable even though they are extremely old in some cases. You can get above gold strike for double eagles, but most gold coins just trade at the gold strike price. It's a very fussy and complicated thing and full of crooks.

[bobmen10000]

Not a numismatist by any means or even a reputable bullion investor but I do deal in both for my auction business - low to mid six figures in sales every year.

Coin collecting for an investment is very difficult...at least at first. Stick with PCGS or NGC graded examples. Best advice, pick a coin type - i.e. nickels, cents, halves, quarters etc - you think to be cool and stick with collecting that type. Even basic collector proficiency in all the major US coin types is next to impossible for most people; it is extremely difficult to be knowledge about even one coin type. eBay is actually a fairly safe place to buy coins due to their very forgiving return and refund policy - it eliminates almost all risk for fraud on the buyer's end. Best prices are generally found in local auctions, flea markets or yard sales, the latter two offering the best potential upside if you are lucky - coin shows and coin shops are the worst place to buy coins and bullion in terms of value unless you are a "dealer" yourself and even then, there is more horse trading involved than actual exchange of cash. Both shows and shops are great resources for other collecting knowledge and general networking. Best place to buy supplies, like coin flips & books to hold your coins, is eBay or Amazon.

If you wish to invest in silver or gold bullion rounds, bars and coins, I think American Silver Eagles and American Gold Eagles are probably the safest and best overall type. However, in terms of bullion, in really doesn't matter too much, just don't pay a ridiculous premium percentage above current spot prices. American Junk Silver, which is any pre-1965 half, quarter or dime that has less numismatic (collectible) value than scrap silver price, is also a very popular bullion investment. The margin on it varies wildly - much more so than most silver & gold products - but if you can buy it right it likely has the highest upside/percentage above spot. Do not buy fractional gold bars or coins, like 1/10 oz or 1 gram, as you will pay a very steep premium. If you buy gold, buy 1 oz bars/rounds/coins to get the best deal and even then, you will have an easier time liquidating one hundred 1 oz silver bars than one 1 oz gold bar in my experience.

https://www.comparesilverprices.com & https://www.comparegoldprices.com are both easy to use resources with several reputable coin & bullion companies presented with their current best prices for the most popular bullion products.

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts is a free and easy to use resource to determine the value of graded coins based on auction prices. It is more accurate than pretty much every major coin collecting book but the values are based on graded coins so when researching raw (every coin that is not professionally slabbed/graded) coin values remember to use it as a guide for rarity more so than price- at least until you get some experience under your belt.

[zappey1]

I had a pretty sweet collection going when I was a kid, and a small silver stack from when the price went into free-fall a few years ago. I don't think any of it's "investment-grade" stuff, but cool to look at once and a while. My brother also gives my kids silver eagles for christmas/birthdays, so they will be set for the inevitable collapse of fiat currency.

What did you get?

I wanted a 1883 $20 gold double eagle that was at a local action. It went to high for market value and auction house fees and taxes (19% of the sale price) I ended up ordering a decent looking one off ebay. I talked him down $250. The amount I paid was 2050 USD. Which according to the internet is a good price for 1. I hope it looks good when it gets here. Seller was a coin shop with 100% positive reviews. It was not graded. I wanted to get some more soon. 1883 is rare internet said only 250 were minted that year

[Hardartery]

I had a pretty sweet collection going when I was a kid, and a small silver stack from when the price went into free-fall a few years ago. I don't think any of it's "investment-grade" stuff, but cool to look at once and a while. My brother also gives my kids silver eagles for christmas/birthdays, so they will be set for the inevitable collapse of fiat currency.

What did you get?

I wanted a 1883 $20 gold double eagle that was at a local action. It went to high for market value and auction house fees and taxes (19% of the sale price) I ended up ordering a decent looking one off ebay. I talked him down $250. The amount I paid was 2050 USD. Which according to the internet is a good price for 1. I hope it looks good when it gets here. Seller was a coin shop with 100% positive reviews. It was not graded. I wanted to get some more soon. 1883 is rare internet said only 250 were minted that year

Getting it graded can be worth the money if the quality is good. That grade and being sealed in the holder will bump it to a number that you can track against other coins of the same grade being bought and sold. No grade makes it a crapshoot for buyers, especially ones that don't know how grading is done or can't get a goodenough view of it. Grading gives it a legit standard that no one argues with, because places like PCGS guarantee the grade basically forever. They will make it good if they grade it wrong. It's not worth the fee for regular coins or stuff that's only kind of valuable numismatically, but can be very very worth it if you are trying to sell something that is worth a lot more verified as a certain grade (Like 65 or higher) or confirmed to be a specific mint/error/patina so that everyone knows you're not using a filter or pulling something. There are fakes out there of the valuable stuff.

[bobmen10000]

If you are buying any coin with a value in excess of $100.00 and you are not sort of knowledgeable about coins then only going with pcgs or ngc slabbed coins is your best bet. China has been faking silver coins for nearly two centuries, most of which are not terribly valuable or collectible by today's numismatic standards; and many of them look pretty good, weight is generally off though - see US trade dollars and morgan dollars.

Any gold coin you purchase should be graded if it is 1) rare, the coinfacts site I linked to below has a rarity scale 1-9, familiarize yourself with it or 2) greater than MS 63 in condition. They faked really good lucking double eagles in syria or iran during the 1980s with the correct weights and sizes (the die quality fooled me once.) They were also made of 90% (perhaps a smidge under) gold. If you are buying just for bullion value, it is typically easy to tell a gold coin from a fake, doesn't take a lot of experience to pick it up. Silver coins can be a little more difficult in my experience to differentiate, especially bullion silver coins.

With all this said, I don't deal with graded coins as a rule due to the premium associated with them and cost & time involved having them graded - plus my auction crowd typically doesn't care about graded coins, they think they know more than PCGS & NGS- but if I was collecting rare or very high graded examples I would stick solely with PCGS or NGC slabs due to the sheer number and quality of fakes out there. Furthermore, you need to check the serial number of any graded coin you purchase on the specific graders website as China produces a lot of good looking fake slabs now.

eBay is again the safest place to buy coins due to their generous return policies - if you use the correct verbiage, it is almost impossible to have a return denied. I also think it is the worst place to sell coins due to the generous to the point of allowing buyer fraud return policies.

[zappey1]

If you are buying any coin with a value in excess of $100.00 and you are not sort of knowledgeable about coins then only going with pcgs or ngc slabbed coins is your best bet. China has been faking silver coins for nearly two centuries, most of which are not terribly valuable or collectible by today's numismatic standards; and many of them look pretty good, weight is generally off though - see US trade dollars and morgan dollars.

Any gold coin you purchase should be graded if it is 1) rare, the coinfacts site I linked to below has a rarity scale 1-9, familiarize yourself with it or 2) greater than MS 63 in condition. They faked really good lucking double eagles in syria or iran during the 1980s with the correct weights and sizes (the die quality fooled me once.) They were also made of 90% (perhaps a smidge under) gold. If you are buying just for bullion value, it is typically easy to tell a gold coin from a fake, doesn't take a lot of experience to pick it up. Silver coins can be a little more difficult in my experience to differentiate, especially bullion silver coins.

With all this said, I don't deal with graded coins as a rule due to the premium associated with them and cost & time involved having them graded - plus my auction crowd typically doesn't care about graded coins, they think they know more than PCGS & NGS- but if I was collecting rare or very high graded examples I would stick solely with PCGS or NGC slabs due to the sheer number and quality of fakes out there. Furthermore, you need to check the serial number of any graded coin you purchase on the specific graders website as China produces a lot of good looking fake slabs now.

eBay is again the safest place to buy coins due to their generous return policies - if you use the correct verbiage, it is almost impossible to have a return denied. I also think it is the worst place to sell coins due to the generous to the point of allowing buyer fraud return policies.

I'm not trying to get it certified as I will probably just be holding on to it for the next 20 years. But here is the auction listing. I thought it looked pretty legit. It also looked in better conditions than others I had seen posted. Plus a coin shop seller with tons of positive reviews put me at ease. He also dropped the price $225 for me
https://www.ebay.com/itm/115226278384

[zappey1]

Here is the link for the first coin at the auction that got this whole rabbit hole going:
https://www.apro.bid/auction/4459/item/708454
I think the coin looks in worse shape but it does come with a gold chain. I would never wear it around but it would add at least some value for meltdown. The current price is $2,025.00 plus 10% added on for the auction house and 9% for state sales tax (+384.75) and the auction still has several hours! Also not certified and no returns allowed.

The one I ordered was 2050 out the door.

[bobmen10000]

It looks fine, color is shitty but that is the photo and something I am guilty of/lack the ability to take good photos or scans of gold (any) coins. need @TimK to give a tutorial on coin photography.

Below is all the details for the coin type you purchased. It wouldn't hurt to weigh it upon arrival - any kitchen scale will suffice. Weight
tolerance is pretty tight on American gold coins. Should be within half a gram, probably .1 to .3 grams.
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1883-s-20/9000

[zappey1]

It looks fine, color is shitty but that is the photo and something I am guilty of/lack the ability to take good photos or scans of gold (any) coins. need @TimK to give a tutorial on coin photography.

Below is all the details for the coin type you purchased. It wouldn't hurt to weigh it upon arrival - any kitchen scale will suffice. Weight
tolerance is pretty tight on American gold coins. Should be within half a gram, probably .1 to .3 grams.
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1883-s-20/9000

Thanks for the tips. Do you have any suggestions for similar coins I should keep an eye out for?

As I was researching I saw $5 dollar Native American head ones from around that same time that looked pretty cool.

[bobmen10000]

It looks fine, color is shitty but that is the photo and something I am guilty of/lack the ability to take good photos or scans of gold (any) coins. need @TimK to give a tutorial on coin photography.

Below is all the details for the coin type you purchased. It wouldn't hurt to weigh it upon arrival - any kitchen scale will suffice. Weight
tolerance is pretty tight on American gold coins. Should be within half a gram, probably .1 to .3 grams.
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1883-s-20/9000

Thanks for the tips. Do you have any suggestions for similar coins I should keep an eye out for?

As I was researching I saw $5 dollar Native American head ones from around that same time that looked pretty cool.

$5.00 Indian Head Golds are very popular, which means you pay a decent premium for coolness versus rarity. They are easily available however and hold better resale value than Liberty Head $5.00 gold pieces. I wouldn't worry about "rare" dates so much with Indian Head type golds and simply find the best value. The $2.50 Indian Head Gold is also very popular. Beware buying them in bezels/lockets - a lot of them were set in them - as they could be irrevocably damaged if it is a soldered type setting

My best suggestion is collect what you can afford and like (in that order), specialize in a particular coin type if you plan on getting serious, but if it is just for fun then go with what you think is cool. I would again recommend visiting comparesilverprices.com or comparegoldprices.com and visit a few of the companies listed there to see what they offer - even for a non-collector like myself, it is a fascinating rabbit hole to explore and you just might find some other coins, rounds or bars that suit your fancy.

[zappey1]

It looks fine, color is shitty but that is the photo and something I am guilty of/lack the ability to take good photos or scans of gold (any) coins. need @TimK to give a tutorial on coin photography.

Below is all the details for the coin type you purchased. It wouldn't hurt to weigh it upon arrival - any kitchen scale will suffice. Weight
tolerance is pretty tight on American gold coins. Should be within half a gram, probably .1 to .3 grams.
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1883-s-20/9000

Thanks for the tips. Do you have any suggestions for similar coins I should keep an eye out for?

As I was researching I saw $5 dollar Native American head ones from around that same time that looked pretty cool.

$5.00 Indian Head Golds are very popular, which means you pay a decent premium for coolness versus rarity. They are easily available however and hold better resale value than Liberty Head $5.00 gold pieces. I wouldn't worry about "rare" dates so much with Indian Head type golds and simply find the best value. The $2.50 Indian Head Gold is also very popular. Beware buying them in bezels/lockets - a lot of them were set in them - as they could be irrevocably damaged if it is a soldered type setting

My best suggestion is collect what you can afford and like (in that order), specialize in a particular coin type if you plan on getting serious, but if it is just for fun then go with what you think is cool. I would again recommend visiting comparesilverprices.com or comparegoldprices.com and visit a few of the companies listed there to see what they offer - even for a non-collector like myself, it is a fascinating rabbit hole to explore and you just might find some other coins, rounds or bars that suit your fancy.

What would be a decent price for a Native American Head coin? I saw from 300-700?

[bobmen10000]

Indian Head Half Eagles $5.00 Gold should run around $550.00 to $600.00 based on my recent experience selling - Indian Head Quarter Eagles $2.50 Gold would be $300.00 to $450.00 - I would personally buy whatever has the lowest premium above current spot price provided it meets the other criteria I mentioned in previous posts, really if you like it and looks decent.

Here is another useful site www.coinflation.com it will give you the real time scrap value of American Silver & Gold Coins (some foreign too.) so you can see how much you are paying above scrap, which does inform the price especially for gold, of the coin(s) you are interested in.

eBay is probably the easiest major site to search for coins by price, type etc - even if you don't use it to make the purchase, there completed & sold listing history can give you a great snapshot on current (they archive 30 to 180 days) trends. Heritage Auctions is a fantastic resource for coin values but it is not quite as user friendly and I am not sure if you can just sign up anymore without giving them financial information. They are one of (perhaps the) preeminent coin auction in the country and have an online price history going back 20+ years.

[mikeylikey]

What are the differences in objectives / expected return / risk / etc. for holding coins with numismatic value as opposed to bullion or junk silver?

I have a pretty good grasp of the latter, less so the former.

[zappey1]

What are the differences in objectives / expected return / risk / etc. for holding coins with numismatic value as opposed to bullion or junk silver?

I have a pretty good grasp of the latter, less so the former.

Junk/ gold silver just goes off the market value. Rare coins can have added value based of collectors. As I was looking things up I found something that said they can go up 25% a year in value based off what is available. Plus they always hold the value of the actual metal they are made of.

That being said if the current market (ebay or local) has a ton of them they may not go up much other than the gold market value. At that point you should hold on to them and check back in a few months. The closer you get them to the market value the higher the potential resale. Plus if you find a good quality one (my understanding is fine or better) you can get them certified which then adds some more value.

[Hardartery]

What are the differences in objectives / expected return / risk / etc. for holding coins with numismatic value as opposed to bullion or junk silver?

I have a pretty good grasp of the latter, less so the former.

When there is a rise in melt value, as there has been the last two years, such that it raises the melt value of the coin above the numismatic value then people start melting them. When people start melting them, the supply obviously diminishes. Diminished supply may result in a subsequent rise in numsmatic value, or possibly stay where it is even if melt value were to diminish fomarket reasons. The higher the grade, the more the coin is worth, generally speaking, but rarity is a key factor. "Error" coins are much more rare, so they tend to be more valuable than non-error coins, the "Errors" are not part of the grade. And some stuff just becomes fashionable or loses public interest which can also affect the price.

[mikeylikey]

What are the differences in objectives / expected return / risk / etc. for holding coins with numismatic value as opposed to bullion or junk silver?

I have a pretty good grasp of the latter, less so the former.

Junk/ gold silver just goes off the market value. Rare coins can have added value based of collectors. As I was looking things up I found something that said they can go up 25% a year in value based off what is available. Plus they always hold the value of the actual metal they are made of.

Anything can go up 25% in a year in the right conditions. Stocks too.

I understand the basic price mechanics.

If gold is 1,800/oz and I buy 10 rare-ish double eagle coins for 3k apiece, I have $18k in bullion and $12k in speculative 'collector' value.

So, why did I do that? What hole in my portfolio does that $12k in speculative value fill? What risk am I hedging, or what condition am I hoping to profit from here?

If this sounds adversarial it's not, I really haven't researched this and I'm interested in the answer.

[mikeylikey]

When there is a rise in melt value, as there has been the last two years, such that it raises the melt value of the coin above the numismatic value then people start melting them.

Help me understand this. Isn't the market price of a coin* defined by a formula P = M+N where P is the price, M is the melt value, and N is the numsimatic/collector premium? Does N go negative?


(excluding here token money like current US change which has metal value significantly below the face amount and gets its value by fiat)