The Russia vs Ukraine show

[aurelius]

@Renascent Red’s statements were not nuanced. Your overly long statements to attempt to make them such are obvious attempts at gas lighting. In short:

We don’t need you to tell us what Red wrote. We can read what he wrote. Red is very capable of providing his own explanation.

IMO: I think Red is against supporting UKR for typical isolationist reasons. Which makes him prone to propogate narratives like UKR are Nazis. From an intellectual standpoint, I don’t believe Red fully believes that narrative.

To my knowledge, no one has called anyone in this thread unpatriotic based on their position on UKR. We have pointed out that general isolationist arguments that lack any real rigor (and parroted by MTG) are silly.

[dw]

Minor point of clarification, there's no proxy war here. That would involve two factions fighting as representatives of two non-fighting factions.

This is Russia actually invading a country, and that country resisting with heavy US (and Western) support.

[DCR]

Regarding the joke, I think it was more about the visibility of the bona fide Nazis within the ranks of the Ukrainian military. It was not an accusation against Ukraine itself.

Which also means the joke was more of an observation about American sentiments and selective outrage (and a mild condemnation of our support for the war).

I read it similarly.

We don’t need you to tell us what Red wrote. We can read what he wrote. Red is very capable of providing his own explanation.

“Sit down and shut up” …

IMO: I think Red is against supporting UKR for typical isolationist reasons. Which makes him prone to propogate narratives like UKR are Nazis. From an intellectual standpoint, I don’t believe Red fully believes that narrative.

… “only I get to opine on dude’s internet postings.”

[aurelius]

@DCRI read the joke as poorly written based on a bad premise. I feel you Red...been there done that. But the joke wasn't made in isolation (it was moved to the UKR thread) and relies on the implication that US is giving UKR weapons because they are Nazis. And Renascent was doing A LOT of heavy lifting Red did not.

There has been and continued claims about UKR being Nazis. Remember, that these claims originate from Russian propaganda about de-Nazi-ing UKR. Support the war, don't support the war...argue that. UKR are not Nazis.

And Mikey has a point: what is a Nazi at this point? Are we even using that word correctly? Are there nationalist groups that could share a lot of ideological DNA with the 3rd Reich but not want to commit genocide of ethnic minorities or conqueror other countries? Absolutely. I guess we should come up with a meaningful definition of what is a Nazi in 2023 before we can have a meaningful discussion on who is a Nazi.

[GlasgowJock]

I guess we should come up with a meaningful definition of what is a Nazi in 2023 before we can have a meaningful discussion on who is a Nazi.

Indeed.

More Western nations - or rather its political classes - acting like Marxists/ Communists rather than Nazis if I wanted to bandy something around, plus it's totally cool/ inoffensive calling folk communists despite racking up a more impressive body count in pursuit of their aims historically.

[quikky]

No one in this thread has referred to Ukraine as a Nazi state, though. No one's characterized their population or their government as a hotbed of intolerance. But their unique history with the Azov Brigade (for example) has been brought to international attention over the past decade. That relationship became highly visible for a brief spell, whether the attention was warranted or not. Alluding to this visibility -- whether in jest or not -- doesn't automatically mean that someone is an intellectual deadbeat who fell for evil Putin's dastardly propaganda tricks, in my mind. It's a lazy accusation.

I think the joke and the follow up posts are pretty clear about what @BostonRugger meant, more or less. He flat out said there's a ton of Nazis/extremists in the Ukrainian military, despite failing to provide any real evidence of it. The joke was not about the "visibility" of a Nazi element, it was about the West giving money/weapons to Nazis, i.e. Ukraine. Again, if that was not the intent of the joke, why the several posts seemingly trying to defend exactly that position? I also asked what his view ultimately is, regarding the Nazism and Ukraine issue, and he never gave a response to clarify.

I don't see how any of this is a lazy accusation.

Calling someone out about making such an allusion reeks of the supposed "virtue-signaling" that -- in many other contexts -- is frequently derided around these parts. Suddenly there's room in the pantheon of vascular intellectualism to misconstrue something as being in "poor taste." There's layers of irony at work that make the original DeSantis/Sonnenrad joke even funnier (to me, at least).

How is caring about a serious issue affecting people you personally know "virtue signaling"? This isn't #StandWithUkraine for some of us.

I also don't know why you keep referring to the "poor taste" comment I made, and why it is supposedly so funny to you.

Anyway, it seems you're not supposed to say anything if you're not in favor of a gradual slide into a played-out proxy war; it's unpatriotic.

Sacred cows and such.

As @aurelius said above, this discussion has not been about whether we should, or should not, support Ukraine, or even to what extent.

[DCR]

@aurelius, I’m aware of the context and imagine that Renascent was as well. Yet, I read the joke as I do, and I agree that

I don’t believe Red fully believes that narrative.

I wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t believe it at all.

Renascent and I may be wrong, but I’m quite sure that I speak for both of us (if I may, and he can tell me to have a seat if he likes) in saying that, if we are, it’s merely a good faith disagreement. No gaslighting here.

[Renascent]

Your overly long statements

I didn't know there was a text limit in effect. Thank you for letting me know, Pot.

We don’t need you to tell us what Red wrote. We can read what he wrote. Red is very capable of providing his own explanation.

Fair enough. I'm quite certain that he is capable of providing his own explanation.

As am I. I am quite capable of providing my own interpretation of what he wrote.

I will check with you first before posting again, though. Just to make sure it's okay with you. I did not mean to speak out of turn.

All this serious, big-brained rigor going on, and I've wandered into the middle of it like a tiny child.

I am deeply sorry. Carry on -- as you were -- with your rigor.

We have pointed out that general isolationist arguments that lack any real rigor (and parroted by MTG) are silly.

I won't call this pretentious. Not sure what to call it, but I won't call it pretentious.

Take care.

Minor point of clarification, there's no proxy war here. That would involve two factions fighting as representatives of two non-fighting factions.

This is Russia actually invading a country, and that country resisting with heavy US (and Western) support.

::nods:: True. Point taken.

Calling someone out about making such an allusion reeks of the supposed "virtue-signaling" that -- in many other contexts -- is frequently derided around these parts. Suddenly there's room in the pantheon of vascular intellectualism to misconstrue something as being in "poor taste." There's layers of irony at work that make the original DeSantis/Sonnenrad joke even funnier (to me, at least).

How is caring about a serious issue affecting people you personally know "virtue signaling"? This isn't #StandWithUkraine for some of us.

I also don't know why you keep referring to the "poor taste" comment I made, and why it is supposedly so funny to you.

Because taste -- much like humor -- is subjective. I don't want to make this about anything other than this particular thread, so I'll leave it at that.

Anyway, it seems you're not supposed to say anything if you're not in favor of a gradual slide into a played-out proxy war; it's unpatriotic.

Sacred cows and such.

As @aurelius said above, this discussion has not been about whether we should, or should not, support Ukraine, or even to what extent.

True.

But I don't see why the discussion cannot be about "whether we should, or should not, support Ukraine, or even to what extent." Shutting motherfuckers down with, "I don't like what you said. Be smarter, dude," seems lazy to me. Or at least it would be considered such in other popular discussions.

Aurelius doesn't get to choose to what is or isn't a valid sidebar -- unless he says so, I guess.

Admittedly, I probably shouldn't have said anything at all. Even I knew that. Ain't the least bit concerned about the size of the balls on an Abrams or playing armchair pilot.

My bad.

[aurelius]

@Renascent I stated you were gas lighting. I reread what you wrote and I stand by that. Of course you can write whatever you want. Of course I can call it gas lighting. You are not being persecuted.

We have pointed out that general isolationist arguments that lack any real rigor (and parroted by MTG) are silly. I won't call this pretentious. Not sure what to call it, but I won't call it pretentious.

If you feel the isolationist arguments are not being given the consideration they deserve, you can restart the discussion on why the US should fail to meet its obligations to UKR under the Budapest memorandum.

*post edited to be more civil and promote constructive discussion.

[quikky]

As @aurelius said above, this discussion has not been about whether we should, or should not, support Ukraine, or even to what extent.

True.

But I don't see why the discussion cannot be about "whether we should, or should not, support Ukraine, or even to what extent." Shutting motherfuckers down with, "I don't like what you said. Be smarter, dude," seems lazy to me. Or at least it would be considered such in other popular discussions.

This specific discussion was about Ukrainian Nazis and BostonRugger's joke. You jumped in trying to defend the joke while mentioning this separate issue as part of your defense of the joke. It's not a matter of what can be discussed, but rather what is relevant in the context of the discussion at hand, that you chose to participate in. You didn't separately bring up the above issue, it was tied to the defense of the joke and it is not relevant in that context.

[mbasic]

Was surprised to hear about the UKR drone strikes hitting Moscow recently.

Googled it.

Seems like RUS is saying they are shooting them down/jamming them ("crashing").

Seems like the pesky drones are being jammed and crashing into certain floors of the same building twice now.

IDK what to believe .

[quikky]

Was surprised to hear about the UKR drone strikes hitting Moscow recently.

Googled it.

Seems like RUS is saying they are shooting them down/jamming them ("crashing").

Seems like the pesky drones are being jammed and crashing into certain floors of the same building twice now.

IDK what to believe .

Seems clear to me. Ukraine is launching drones into Russia. At least some of them are making it, even if imprecisely.

The numbers are going to be biased on both sides, generally more so from Russia. Ukraine will say all of them landed, Russia will say all of them got shot down. At the end of the day, shit's on fire in Russian cities. Symbolically, this is a big deal and something Putin cannot hide.

[mikeylikey]

The numbers are going to be biased on both sides, generally more so from Russia. Ukraine will say all of them landed, Russia will say all of them got shot down. At the end of the day, shit's on fire in Russian cities. Symbolically, this is a big deal and something Putin cannot hide.

The Doolittle effect.

[coldfire]

Oh, man. Look at Reuters, the Toronto Star and ABC spewing banal Russian propaganda. Bad look, yikes, have they considered being good people?

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-co ... 76cfe.html?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohe ... SKBN1GV2TY

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-10/ ... e/10983542

This is just lazy. Tell me, what does Ukraine having some Nazi extremist group and, bUt MuH AzOv Battalion, have to do with the war? The answer: nothing. The only places on the planet the Nazi war narrative is coming from is the Kremlin and its media. Your joke was a regurgitation of this narrative and I called you out on it. Somehow you were pretending it's simply an anti funding opinion. It's not.

So is it your opinion that those ABC, Reuters, and TS were functioning as Russian propagandists when publishing those pieces? Their reporting is pretty pro-UKR these days. What changed?

And if not, when exactly did this go from being a legitimate subject for criticism to a shibboleth which must not be uttered?

Feel free to quote me over in the UKR/RUS thread if you want. I posted here because of the DeSantis staffer using the Azov logo.

No, the point is the context and breadth of the Nazi question in Ukraine. The articles were talking about Nazi groups existing in Ukraine. Okay. Your comment was referring to Nazis receiving NATO/Western money and military aid, i.e. the Ukrainians and/or their government is Nazi. If that's not what you meant, it certainly read that way. And, if that is what you meant, it is indeed Russian propaganda.

In the context of the war, the Russian narrative is that the "Kiev regime", as they love to call it, are literal Nazis that must be destroyed for the safety of Russia, Russian speakers, and your mom.

I think units now under Ukrainian military like Azov and various Right Sector groups have a heckuva lotta national socialists in them. Seems like that was true before Russia invaded, is true now, and is true regardless of Putin's claimed casus beli. With DeSantis' guy making the sonnenrad video, it was the obviously available reference. I didn't even know what that symbol was until I learned about Azov.

What is a "heckuva lotta" and what is your source?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Brigade#Neo-Nazism

[mbasic]

The naval drone attacks are interesting....

As an aside. After seeing this this war, and seeing all this new technology (some of it not even fancy, but just cheap and clever) put into play, I don't think there is any way China will ever even try to take Taiwan .... take it in a military sense.

I wonder what all the military czars, Tony-Stark-like characters, Raytheons, etc in the various countries are thinking now.
More light bulbs going off than the vegas strip with these people: "Drone Everything!!! ... our drones have drones"

[mikeylikey]

The naval drone attacks are interesting....

As an aside. After seeing this this war, and seeing all this new technology (some of it not even fancy, but just cheap and clever) put into play, I don't think there is any way China will ever even try to take Taiwan .... take it in a military sense.

I wonder what all the military czars, Tony-Stark-like characters, Raytheons, etc in the various countries are thinking now.
More light bulbs going off than the vegas strip with these people: "Drone Everything!!! ... our drones have drones"

[quikky]

The naval drone attacks are interesting....

As an aside. After seeing this this war, and seeing all this new technology (some of it not even fancy, but just cheap and clever) put into play, I don't think there is any way China will ever even try to take Taiwan .... take it in a military sense.

I wonder what all the military czars, Tony-Stark-like characters, Raytheons, etc in the various countries are thinking now.
More light bulbs going off than the vegas strip with these people: "Drone Everything!!! ... our drones have drones"

The interesting thing drone-wise is those promising Switchblades did not turn out to be too good. From what I understand, they work well when you are fighting very low tech fighters, but turned out to be kind of a dud in a more modern engagement with electronic warfare capabilities.

[aurelius]

The naval drone attacks are interesting....

As an aside. After seeing this this war, and seeing all this new technology (some of it not even fancy, but just cheap and clever) put into play, I don't think there is any way China will ever even try to take Taiwan .... take it in a military sense.

I wonder what all the military czars, Tony-Stark-like characters, Raytheons, etc in the various countries are thinking now.
More light bulbs going off than the vegas strip with these people: "Drone Everything!!! ... our drones have drones"

The interesting thing drone-wise is those promising Switchblades did not turn out to be too good. From what I understand, they work well when you are fighting very low tech fighters, but turned out to be kind of a dud in a more modern engagement with electronic warfare capabilities.

kind of makes sense. US spent the last 20+ years fighting low tech opponents. That impacts its thinking. I
Matter how hard it tries to mitigate that.

[BostonRugger]

Been on vacation. I cannot believe how much whinging and gnashing of teeth was inspired by my Azov joke. The impetus was the DeSantis sonnenrad from the POTUS election thread. I think it’s probably the first time I posted about that. It’s totally absent from my previous objections (in this thread) to US funding for Ukraine. It’s flat out bizarre that Americans would care this much. Aside from some personal connections, you should ask how you’ve been made to feel so invested in this specific conflict.

Do your fives or something and stop being a massive pussy


ETA isolationism is a smear used by warhawks/neocons/blood-soaked-monsters. Nothing about non intervention implies you’ll stop trade and pull embassies or whatever

[BostonRugger]

Red’s statements…. Red … Red

I am not him, but I miss him. I will channel his spirit for the rest of this thread