The Russia vs Ukraine show

[mbasic]

Fucken interwebs r grate!!!

[aurelius]

I'm confused as fuck. Why the fuck would he pull up? No way Putin just lets him walk away. He had a legit chance! Now he is just going to die in some alley bleeding out.

[51M0N]

I'm confused as fuck. Why the fuck would he pull up? No way Putin just lets him walk away. He had a legit chance! Now he is just going to die in some alley bleeding out.

Rumour is that Russian intelligence got to his family (or the families of other top people in Wagner). Putting a gun to the head of your wife and kids (and possibly your extended family) is going to make a man re-think he position real fast, and a trick the Russians have a lot of practice with.

[mbasic]

I'm confused as fuck. Why the fuck would he pull up? No way Putin just lets him walk away. He had a legit chance! Now he is just going to die in some alley bleeding out.

Rumour is that Russian intelligence got to his family (or the families of other top people in Wagner). Putting a gun to the head of your wife and kids (and possibly your extended family) is going to make a man re-think he position real fast, and a trick the Russians have a lot of practice with.

I mean, the mob-like tactics are not surprising or anything...

....but its OK for thousands of Wagneriers to die fighting Russians the Chechnyanese in a coup?? or die at the hands ofthe Ukrainians NATO?... but a scant few family members of Prigozhin can not be sacrificed to end all of this collective bloodshed all the way around?

nice bro

I guess its still a humiliating thing for Putin for all this to be out in the open.

[mbasic]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/notorious-ru ... 11049.html

so many ways to get killed when you work in the Russian military.

A Russian submarine commander blamed for atrocities in Ukraine was gunned down on his morning jog in Krasnodar—and his killer likely knew just where to find him thanks to his habit of posting his running routes on a popular exercise app.

Stanislav Rzhitsky, a commander of a submarine in Russia’s Black Sea Fleet and the deputy head of mobilization efforts in Krasnodar, was shot four times in the back and chest in broad daylight on Monday morning, according to local media reports. The Investigative Committee has opened a murder investigation into the brazen hit.

Russian media claims investigators believe the 42-year-old’s assassination was “ordered from Ukraine,” though Ukrainian authorities have painted a much murkier picture of the whodunnit mystery. The Ukrainian Defense Ministry’s Main Intelligence Directorate on Tuesday confirmed Rzhitsky’s murder but did not claim responsibility for it, noting only that he had commanded a Russian submarine “involved in missile attacks on Ukraine.” They said he’d been shot seven times with a Makarov pistol.

Ukrainian intelligence chief Kyrylo Budanov denied that Kyiv had any involvement in the killing, writing on Telegram on Tuesday that the “roots” of the murder “should be sought within Russia itself, where internal protest against the war in Ukraine is growing.”

Women Fighting Putin’s Troops Reveal Their Agonizing Secrets

The Krasnodar submarine, equipped with Kalibr cruise missiles, was blamed by Ukrainian media for an attack on Vinnytsia last year that killed 27 people. Rzhitsky was also listed in a Ukrainian database that names and shames all those accused of involvement in war crimes.

But Ukrainian authorities say Rzhitsky had also made enemies in the Russian military after refusing to carry out any more missile strikes on Ukraine due to the risks to the civilian population. In a statement, the Department of Strategic Communications of the Armed Forces of Ukraine claimed Rzhitsky was “eliminated by his own for refusing to further carry out the command’s combat orders.”

[BostonRugger]

Oh, man. Look at Reuters, the Toronto Star and ABC spewing banal Russian propaganda. Bad look, yikes, have they considered being good people?

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-co ... 76cfe.html?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohe ... SKBN1GV2TY

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-10/ ... e/10983542

This is just lazy. Tell me, what does Ukraine having some Nazi extremist group and, bUt MuH AzOv Battalion, have to do with the war? The answer: nothing. The only places on the planet the Nazi war narrative is coming from is the Kremlin and its media. Your joke was a regurgitation of this narrative and I called you out on it. Somehow you were pretending it's simply an anti funding opinion. It's not.

So is it your opinion that those ABC, Reuters, and TS were functioning as Russian propagandists when publishing those pieces? Their reporting is pretty pro-UKR these days. What changed?

And if not, when exactly did this go from being a legitimate subject for criticism to a shibboleth which must not be uttered?

Feel free to quote me over in the UKR/RUS thread if you want. I posted here because of the DeSantis staffer using the Azov logo.

No, the point is the context and breadth of the Nazi question in Ukraine. The articles were talking about Nazi groups existing in Ukraine. Okay. Your comment was referring to Nazis receiving NATO/Western money and military aid, i.e. the Ukrainians and/or their government is Nazi. If that's not what you meant, it certainly read that way. And, if that is what you meant, it is indeed Russian propaganda.

In the context of the war, the Russian narrative is that the "Kiev regime", as they love to call it, are literal Nazis that must be destroyed for the safety of Russia, Russian speakers, and your mom.

I think units now under Ukrainian military like Azov and various Right Sector groups have a heckuva lotta national socialists in them. Seems like that was true before Russia invaded, is true now, and is true regardless of Putin's claimed casus beli. With DeSantis' guy making the sonnenrad video, it was the obviously available reference. I didn't even know what that symbol was until I learned about Azov.

Does Putin say anything about the danger to Mikey's mom?

[quikky]

Oh, man. Look at Reuters, the Toronto Star and ABC spewing banal Russian propaganda. Bad look, yikes, have they considered being good people?

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-co ... 76cfe.html?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohe ... SKBN1GV2TY

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-10/ ... e/10983542

This is just lazy. Tell me, what does Ukraine having some Nazi extremist group and, bUt MuH AzOv Battalion, have to do with the war? The answer: nothing. The only places on the planet the Nazi war narrative is coming from is the Kremlin and its media. Your joke was a regurgitation of this narrative and I called you out on it. Somehow you were pretending it's simply an anti funding opinion. It's not.

So is it your opinion that those ABC, Reuters, and TS were functioning as Russian propagandists when publishing those pieces? Their reporting is pretty pro-UKR these days. What changed?

And if not, when exactly did this go from being a legitimate subject for criticism to a shibboleth which must not be uttered?

Feel free to quote me over in the UKR/RUS thread if you want. I posted here because of the DeSantis staffer using the Azov logo.

No, the point is the context and breadth of the Nazi question in Ukraine. The articles were talking about Nazi groups existing in Ukraine. Okay. Your comment was referring to Nazis receiving NATO/Western money and military aid, i.e. the Ukrainians and/or their government is Nazi. If that's not what you meant, it certainly read that way. And, if that is what you meant, it is indeed Russian propaganda.

In the context of the war, the Russian narrative is that the "Kiev regime", as they love to call it, are literal Nazis that must be destroyed for the safety of Russia, Russian speakers, and your mom.

I think units now under Ukrainian military like Azov and various Right Sector groups have a heckuva lotta national socialists in them. Seems like that was true before Russia invaded, is true now, and is true regardless of Putin's claimed casus beli. With DeSantis' guy making the sonnenrad video, it was the obviously available reference. I didn't even know what that symbol was until I learned about Azov.

What is a "heckuva lotta" and what is your source?

And I again must go back to my original question: what does this have to do with the war? What point are you making? Why make the joke that Ukraine is Nazi?

[quikky]

Does Putin say anything about the danger to Mikey's mom?

... It's about Aurelius' mom.

...It's always been about Aurelius' mom.

[aurelius]

... It's about Aurelius' mom.

...It's always been about Aurelius' mom.

She's a nice lady.

[BostonRugger]

What is a "heckuva lotta" and what is your source?

Seems to be a hard question to find data on. You'll see post-2022 articles saying "many do not display nazi symbols" or "a sizeable portion do not identify with white nationalism," but it's not like they poll them. Andriy Biletsky being the founder of that particular group would lead you to believe the WNs aren't a fringe contingent within AB.

And I again must go back to my original question: what does this have to do with the war? What point are you making? Why make the joke that Ukraine is Nazi?

It was more to do with the DeSantis staffer including the nazi symbol in that bizarre video edit that he made. The controversy was the sonnenrad and Azov is the only available current day reference upon which a joke could be built. That's not my fault; that's their fault.

[aurelius]

Seems to be a hard question to find data on.

Nah. It's pretty easy to find data and extrapolate from there. Having spent 15 minutes looking into it I found:

--The Azoz Battalion is a voluntary militia (not even regular UKR army) and estimated to be between 900 to 2,500 soldiers. The UKR army is ~200,000.
--AB based out of the Donbas region which is about ~6.5 million people out of a total UKR population of ~44 million. So 2,500 people out of 6.5 million out of 44 million...and almost half of the Donbas region are ethnic Russians. Attributing their personal ideology to the whole region is saying the KKK in Alabama is representative of the US.
--The Donbas region was taken in 2014 and recently annexed by Russia. The AB is a small resistance force formed to fight Russian occupation. It is common that resistance forces form from existing, organized groups.
--Of course UKR supports AB's efforts. Supporting an 'imperfect' ally to fight a common enemy has happened in every war ever.
--During a time when UKR has been invaded, nationalist ideologies are going to be popular among the general population. I would expect a higher % of UKR citizens identify with "Blood and Soil" ideology more than normal.

Yes, the Azoz battalion is a nationalist group with known Nazi ideology. And? There are Nazis groups in the US! This narrative that the US supporting UKR is tantamount to supporting Nazis is grossly false. And stupid. You are too smart for this.

[quikky]

What is a "heckuva lotta" and what is your source?

Seems to be a hard question to find data on. You'll see post-2022 articles saying "many do not display nazi symbols" or "a sizeable portion do not identify with white nationalism," but it's not like they poll them. Andriy Biletsky being the founder of that particular group would lead you to believe the WNs aren't a fringe contingent within AB.

The Azov rhetoric is even less warranted now that it was in the past. Azov was largely stationed in Mariupol. Mariupol is no longer on the map, and most of the Azov fighters were either killed, or became POWs after the surrender at the Azov Steel plant. Some Azov fighters have very recently returned from Turkey, against the agreement with Russia, as an interesting and big FU from Erdogan to Putin.

This is beside the fact that most of the extremism has left the battalion years ago, and that it is a single battalion fighting the Russians since 2014 to begin with.

Again though, I am trying to understand what you are ultimately trying to say. Is your position that Ukraine is a Nazi country? That its military is Nazi? What is your point here dude?

And I again must go back to my original question: what does this have to do with the war? What point are you making? Why make the joke that Ukraine is Nazi?

It was more to do with the DeSantis staffer including the nazi symbol in that bizarre video edit that he made. The controversy was the sonnenrad and Azov is the only available current day reference upon which a joke could be built. That's not my fault; that's their fault.

If you made a joke that Ukraine is Nazi, that would be one thing. Your joke was worse though. The joke was that if you pretend to be a Nazi, you can get billions of military equipment and aid, you know, like Ukraine. That's in really poor taste at best, and terribly ignorant at worst.

[Renascent]

*long sigh*

Fuck it.

That's in really poor taste at best...

This seems like a bit of a reach.

This can't be real outrage.

It isn't real outrage, is it?

[JonA]

That's in really poor taste at best, and terribly ignorant at worst.

Sounds like the fundamental basis for a great joke.

[quikky]

*long sigh*

Fuck it.

That's in really poor taste at best...

This seems like a bit of a reach.

This can't be real outrage.

It isn't real outrage, is it?

I am not sure what qualifies as "outrage" but yes, I know people personally living in Ukraine right now, and I have been to the country in the past several times. It is a shitty thing to label them as Nazis, both, because it is bullshit, and because of what they are going through.

[Renascent]

*long sigh*

Fuck it.

That's in really poor taste at best...

This seems like a bit of a reach.

This can't be real outrage.

It isn't real outrage, is it?

I am not sure what qualifies as "outrage" but yes, I know people personally living in Ukraine right now, and I have been to the country in the past several times. It is a shitty thing to label them as Nazis, both, because it is bullshit, and because of what they are going through.

Well, I don't think that was the aim of the joke, given the context of preceding comments:

Expanding that side of the conversation from a contest about who wants to send Ukraine the most weapons and funding into a debate of for vs against is a good thing.

Nevermind that the "poor taste" critique seems a little out of character (and might've been even funnier than the joke).

Hope your people are staying safe.

[mikeylikey]

How is this argument different from, say, an argument about whether Group X, in the present day, is a bunch of Whigs. And then a debate over what makes a Whig a Whig, and how much you have to have in common with the literal historical Whigs to be considered a Whig, and does it matter whether you use the term Whig to describe yourself, etc. etc. etc.

Like, the Whigs were a thing, that happenend, they're all dead and now we have other groups of people who may or may not have some similarities but enough time has gone by that it really isn't helpful to be describing Donald Trump as a Whig.

<checks wikipedia> actually, you could make that argument...

[Renascent]

Regarding the joke, I think it was more about the visibility of the bona fide Nazis within the ranks of the Ukrainian military. It was not an accusation against Ukraine itself.

Which also means the joke was more of an observation about American sentiments and selective outrage (and a mild condemnation of our support for the war).

DeSantis may not have needed to fire anybody to save face.

I'm not sure that there's a need to argue about how many Very Fine People™ are fighting for Ukraine. There's enough to be visible.

[mgil]

Counterpoint to Nazis fighting for Ukraine:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_pr ... s_military

I’ve witnessed this personally. Would likely be easy for some foreign entity to slander the USA military by digging up some enlisted personnel with MS13 tattoos.

[Renascent]

I'd wager that nearly every major military in existence right now has members that overlap with so-called fringe movements. I think it'd be pointless for anyone to argue otherwise.

No one in this thread has referred to Ukraine as a Nazi state, though. No one's characterized their population or their government as a hotbed of intolerance. But their unique history with the Azov Brigade (for example) has been brought to international attention over the past decade. That relationship became highly visible for a brief spell, whether the attention was warranted or not. Alluding to this visibility -- whether in jest or not -- doesn't automatically mean that someone is an intellectual deadbeat who fell for evil Putin's dastardly propaganda tricks, in my mind. It's a lazy accusation.

Calling someone out about making such an allusion reeks of the supposed "virtue-signaling" that -- in many other contexts -- is frequently derided around these parts. Suddenly there's room in the pantheon of vascular intellectualism to misconstrue something as being in "poor taste." There's layers of irony at work that make the original DeSantis/Sonnenrad joke even funnier (to me, at least).

Don’t know if it'd be safe to assume that every average Joe or Jane with a Ukrainian flag next to their Twitter handle -- or in hanging in their front yard -- has vetted the numbers and ultimately confirmed that there are few to no Nazis in Ukraine's military. Surely they'd allow DeSantis the same "due process" if a rogue staffer released a dumb video for the sake of shock value or amusement. Hopefully their outrage meters are properly calibrated.

Anyway, it seems you're not supposed to say anything if you're not in favor of a gradual slide into a played-out proxy war; it's unpatriotic.

Sacred cows and such.