The IPF seems shitty

[mgil]

Seems like some petty bullshit is the underlying problem?

We know the IPF was already a joke from the exorbitant fees they are charging sponsors for a sport that has very limited coverage.

How much of the IPF was funded via USAPL? Probably a significant amount.

Silly.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

From a non-US viewpoint both organisations seem at fault here, though it's pretty clear that it's the USAPL that would have had the easier route to give in and save any face that needed saving...and sticking to the narrative that it's only about Drug Testing is disingenuous at best.

It's hard not to feel sorry for the Lifters involved, but happily many are making it easier by turning it into a USA vs The World, so there's that I guess...

[Wilhelm]

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

Yeah, but who confirms that exactly?

[Wilhelm]

Yeah, but who confirms that exactly?

It's right on the IPF's own site
Along with countries that have zero tests.


These are only WADA approved test stats
https://www.powerlifting.sport/anti-doping/testing

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

They may be tested at a WADA accredited site but are not currently collected by a WADA approved process.

As someone who would happily abolish testing full-stop I don't have a personal dog in this fight...

[Wilhelm]

[MarkKO]

Funny how almost every other federation figured out long ago the simplest way to avoid any bullshit is to just stop testing completely.

I've seen IPF *and* USAPL lifters openly say they know there is still PED usage in both feds, so what does testing matter?

[Wilhelm]

They may be tested at a WADA accredited site but are not currently collected by a WADA approved process.

As someone who would happily abolish testing full-stop I don't have a personal dog in this fight...

Yeah.
I had assumed the WADA lab tested samples were fully compliant.
I've learned that is not the case.
Too bad IPF wouldn't accept the 2 tier offer put forth by USAPL.

I only recently became aware of openipf.
Had been looking at my M3 ranking just on openpowerlifting/all years/93kg raw/USAPL

I find i have grown attached to the external motivation of moving my name up the list on openipf, and the feeling is different thinking i'll only have that option with USAPL openpowerlifting.

Same numbers, just interesting how unsettling is has been for a day now.
I'm recalibrating my mndset.
I am curious if my November meet result will be shown on openipf.

With a good meet, i could move from #24 all years to possibly top 20.
But yeah, it really points out the difference between internal and external motivation.

I'll still have the USAPL rankings as a little trophy.

[BigDave]

The “IPF is kicking us out for drug testing” thing is so fucking stupid

Just fcking test less people and do it right instead of cutting corners. Whether it’s 5 or 1% instead of the usual 10 to make the math work on more expensive tests it doesn’t matter. Still will be enough of a deterrent to prevent average ass lifters from using and then there’s no corruption on who’s collecting the samples, who processes the results, etc. And you don’t lose the connection to the international competition that actually keeps you relevant

Disingenuous ass talking point

[Wilhelm]

I liked this post from Stronger By Science's subreddit

'...USAPL offered to have a WADA testing pool and a general testing pool and was rebuffed. Even if most of the testing is flawed, it's an add-on to the WADA testing.

The IPF is essentially saying that if you want a safety system in your car, it has to be an airbag. Your dashboard Jesus is forbidden even if you have an airbag too -- but you don't have to use an airbag if you don't want to. (No one is arguing that the dashboard Jesus is sufficient by itself.) "

And Nuckols' post there -

"

Both sides are being fairly ridiculous imo. The USAPL has to recognize the potential problems with countries overseeing their own testing (e.g. if a country simply wanted to allow all drug use, it wouldn't be hard to collect samples, do fake testing, and issue fake anti-doping reports). Similarly, WADA clearly doesn't care about actually promoting clean sport (hence countries with no testing or virtually no testing still being classified as WADA-compliant). Unless there's a shared resource pool that would allow all countries to be tested by a disinterested third party, with tests being impartial and relatively frequent, the entire idea of a clean sport with anti-doping measures being applied fairly to all participating nations is a farce. As it is, that's not an option that's even on the table, and at least in the sport of powerlifting, it wouldn't be possible in the first place. The sport doesn't generate enough revenue for all IPF-associated nations to do frequent WADA testing. Since WADA testing is so expensive and powerlifting orgs are so poor (relative to other sporting bodies), WADA compliance effectively means minimal drug testing.

Basically, there are two bad options: countries managing their own testing (VERY ripe for corruption) or WADA testing (aka almost no testing)

FWIW, I also sort of suspect WADA testing is a bit of a scam. The main reason it's so expensive is that WADA-accredited labs COULD run a lot of very expensive tests on every sample collected, but in practice, they generally only run those tests if there's reason to be suspicious of a particular athlete. For example, if someone's T:E ratio isn't high enough to be classified as a positive test, but it IS quite a bit higher than normal, a WADA lab could then do carbon isotope ratio testing (better test, but more expensive). But most of the time, they'd just run a battery of quicker, cheaper tests on most of the samples (comparable to the much cheaper testing USAPL already does). As a result, generally, the tests actually performed have a much lower "market value" than the per-sample sticker price of WADA testing. SOMEONE (either the labs or WADA itself; my guess would be both) is making off like a bandit."

[JohnHelton]

They may be tested at a WADA accredited site but are not currently collected by a WADA approved process.

As someone who would happily abolish testing full-stop I don't have a personal dog in this fight...

Yeah.
I had assumed the WADA lab tested samples were fully compliant.
I've learned that is not the case.
Too bad IPF wouldn't accept the 2 tier offer put forth by USAPL.

I only recently became aware of openipf.
Had been looking at my M3 ranking just on openpowerlifting/all years/93kg raw/USAPL

I find i have grown attached to the external motivation of moving my name up the list on openipf, and the feeling is different thinking i'll only have that option with USAPL openpowerlifting.

Same numbers, just interesting how unsettling is has been for a day now.
I'm recalibrating my mndset.
I am curious if my November meet result will be shown on openipf.

With a good meet, i could move from #24 all years to possibly top 20.
But yeah, it really points out the difference between internal and external motivation.

I'll still have the USAPL rankings as a little trophy.

I use to do the same thing, but I have started to just look at all raw lifters regardless of federation. I don't really care about the drug use thing. If they are IPF outside the US, then they probably aren't being tested anyway. Plus, I may end up on TRT myself. It is interesting to see that tested vs non-tested just doesn't raise that bar as much as one would suspect among the older guys. Finally, there are more USPA meets near me than USAPL.

[MarkKO]

I liked this post from Stronger By Science's subreddit

'...USAPL offered to have a WADA testing pool and a general testing pool and was rebuffed. Even if most of the testing is flawed, it's an add-on to the WADA testing.

The IPF is essentially saying that if you want a safety system in your car, it has to be an airbag. Your dashboard Jesus is forbidden even if you have an airbag too -- but you don't have to use an airbag if you don't want to. (No one is arguing that the dashboard Jesus is sufficient by itself.) "

And Nuckols' post there -

"

Both sides are being fairly ridiculous imo. The USAPL has to recognize the potential problems with countries overseeing their own testing (e.g. if a country simply wanted to allow all drug use, it wouldn't be hard to collect samples, do fake testing, and issue fake anti-doping reports). Similarly, WADA clearly doesn't care about actually promoting clean sport (hence countries with no testing or virtually no testing still being classified as WADA-compliant). Unless there's a shared resource pool that would allow all countries to be tested by a disinterested third party, with tests being impartial and relatively frequent, the entire idea of a clean sport with anti-doping measures being applied fairly to all participating nations is a farce. As it is, that's not an option that's even on the table, and at least in the sport of powerlifting, it wouldn't be possible in the first place. The sport doesn't generate enough revenue for all IPF-associated nations to do frequent WADA testing. Since WADA testing is so expensive and powerlifting orgs are so poor (relative to other sporting bodies), WADA compliance effectively means minimal drug testing.

Basically, there are two bad options: countries managing their own testing (VERY ripe for corruption) or WADA testing (aka almost no testing)

FWIW, I also sort of suspect WADA testing is a bit of a scam. The main reason it's so expensive is that WADA-accredited labs COULD run a lot of very expensive tests on every sample collected, but in practice, they generally only run those tests if there's reason to be suspicious of a particular athlete. For example, if someone's T:E ratio isn't high enough to be classified as a positive test, but it IS quite a bit higher than normal, a WADA lab could then do carbon isotope ratio testing (better test, but more expensive). But most of the time, they'd just run a battery of quicker, cheaper tests on most of the samples (comparable to the much cheaper testing USAPL already does). As a result, generally, the tests actually performed have a much lower "market value" than the per-sample sticker price of WADA testing. SOMEONE (either the labs or WADA itself; my guess would be both) is making off like a bandit."

I recall reading a rather good article (although of course I can't remember where ) where someone previously quite high up at WADA said on the record that the current system simply doesn't work in terms of actually catching PED users. Which, to a reasonable extent, tallies with accounts from experience dispensers of PEDs who have long held that drug testing is just intelligence testing in that if the user is smart about it it is very easy to not get caught.

So at a guess, the WADA attitude may well reflect this situation. WADA seems to have figured out there is little point pushing the issue, so they test enough to maintain an illusion of trying to find PED users but no more. The IPF would probably be well aware of this, and would then want to make sure no national bodies rock the boat.

The USAPL obviously has a real bee in its bonnet about actually catching PED users out of some weird principle that I simply don't get, and isn't willing to admit that a) it's a losing batte and b) pushing the issue is only going to hurt the top tier of its lifters while having no positive impact on the bulk of its membership either.

So it comes down, again, to it being a lot easier to simply not test at all because lifters who are going to use PEDs are going to and will often manage to pass tests anyway.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

It could be argued that rather than having a "bee in it's bonnet" about catching PED users the USAPL merely wants to look like it does...without oversight the self-reported USAPL testing figures really mean very little if one was determined to see it that way.
Further, since the USAPL's rules currently differ from the IPF, I could easily see a number of Legal issues when lifters fall through those cracks (this has already happened across a number of sports, of course).

[JohnHelton]

It could be argued that rather than having a "bee in it's bonnet" about catching PED users the USAPL merely wants to look like it does...without oversight the self-reported USAPL testing figures really mean very little if one was determined to see it that way.
Further, since the USAPL's rules currently differ from the IPF, I could easily see a number of Legal issues when lifters fall through those cracks (this has already happened across a number of sports, of course).

They definitely go through a lot of trouble if they are faking their intent. I was tested after a meet. They were very strict about the protocol. It was quite the process. Maybe they just dumped the sample afterwards. I don't know. They said that no news was good news, and I never heard from them again.

[Wilhelm]

They may be tested at a WADA accredited site but are not currently collected by a WADA approved process.

As someone who would happily abolish testing full-stop I don't have a personal dog in this fight...

Yeah.
I had assumed the WADA lab tested samples were fully compliant.
I've learned that is not the case.
Too bad IPF wouldn't accept the 2 tier offer put forth by USAPL.

I only recently became aware of openipf.
Had been looking at my M3 ranking just on openpowerlifting/all years/93kg raw/USAPL

I find i have grown attached to the external motivation of moving my name up the list on openipf, and the feeling is different thinking i'll only have that option with USAPL openpowerlifting.

Same numbers, just interesting how unsettling is has been for a day now.
I'm recalibrating my mndset.
I am curious if my November meet result will be shown on openipf.

With a good meet, i could move from #24 all years to possibly top 20.
But yeah, it really points out the difference between internal and external motivation.

I'll still have the USAPL rankings as a little trophy.

I use to do the same thing, but I have started to just look at all raw lifters regardless of federation. I don't really care about the drug use thing. If they are IPF outside the US, then they probably aren't being tested anyway. Plus, I may end up on TRT myself. It is interesting to see that tested vs non-tested just doesn't raise that bar as much as one would suspect among the older guys. Finally, there are more USPA meets near me than USAPL.

So i'm looking at this, and for "All feds" raw, it doesn't change me needing to add 100lbs to be top 10 all years in Masters 3 93kg, but importantly, it does mean i'd need to put that total up after i'm 65, and not before.

Not an insignificant difference, but i'm going with it, and will just see how things go.

If done before i'm 65, at this point on openpowerlifting, that would be good enough for top 25 M3a All Feds.

Time to continue exactly what i'm already doing, lul.

[Daverin2112]

FWIW, I also sort of suspect WADA testing is a bit of a scam. The main reason it's so expensive is that WADA-accredited labs COULD run a lot of very expensive tests on every sample collected, but in practice, they generally only run those tests if there's reason to be suspicious of a particular athlete. For example, if someone's T:E ratio isn't high enough to be classified as a positive test, but it IS quite a bit higher than normal, a WADA lab could then do carbon isotope ratio testing (better test, but more expensive). But most of the time, they'd just run a battery of quicker, cheaper tests on most of the samples (comparable to the much cheaper testing USAPL already does). As a result, generally, the tests actually performed have a much lower "market value" than the per-sample sticker price of WADA testing. SOMEONE (either the labs or WADA itself; my guess would be both) is making off like a bandit."

This... bugs me more than it should. I mean, already never expected the drug testing to amount to jackshit (read Nuckols' prior paragraph), but the whole point behind WADA is that it not only has the obvious "intelligence test" methods, but a few that seem to legitimately be modern enough to keep most reasonable cycles off the table (such as carbon isotope). In other words, it seemed WADA had some genuinely good tools, just cost too many arms and legs to reasonably run that testing for the IPF.

If they are charging for the good stuff and then don't even run the good stuff... ugh.

And say what you will, but I believe in the genuine zeal of the USAPL, along with a few other feds. I think the still relatively niche-like nature of powerlifting, combined with the aforementioned chance to go untested, means the USAPL is going to probably attract true anti-doping believers.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

US Virgin Islands sending a strong team this year, it seems...