Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

What's a carb? A car part? What's a macro? A type of camera lens?

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#21

Post by J0 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:41 am

JohnHelton wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:17 am I didn't enter the foods. If you scroll to the bottom on the Dashboard, click on Nutrition and then click the + sign at the upper right corner of the page. I just entered the total calories, not the individual macros. One can do the same for Scale Weight at the bottom of the Dashboard. It takes a little time, but it is worth it if you have the data.
Excellent, thank you!

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#22

Post by gnuckols » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:19 am

>Avatar comparison

We didn't look into Avatar quite as much, because not many people in our audience indicated that they use Avatar (that's definitely the main reason we didn't include it on our comparison table), and it was our understanding that it was quite similar to Carbon. One of our devs tried it for a bit, but MFP, Cronometer, RP, and Carbon were BY FAR the four most popular among our audience, so that's where we kept most of our focus.

>Goal end date/shifting calories within a week

One of our core aims is to take as much of the stress out of logging as is reasonable. I won't bore you with all of the little choices we made with that philosophy in mind, but we're aware that food logging has the potential to be a trigger for people with eating disorders or at high risk of developing eating disorders, so we've tried to avoid features (certainly default features) that could add additional stress to dieting.

With the sort of goal behavior being described, you could pretty easily wind up in a vicious cycle where you fall behind your intended rate of weight loss a bit, the app drops your recommended calories further to get you back on track, adherence becomes more challenging as a result, you slip further behind, etc. For the vast majority of people, it probably wouldn't be an issue (especially if they set a comfortably attainable goal and never got too far off track in the first place), but we could see it potentially causing problems for the minority of users at high risk of eating disorders.

The same applies to shifting calories within a week if you go over/under target early in the week. Probably wouldn't be an issue for the vast majority of users, but it could also pretty easily feed into binge/purge cycles for some people.

With all of that said, we've kicked around the idea of developing a "competitor mode" that has some of these features, that you'd need to opt into (i.e. make it a toggle-able option within the app that's not enabled by default).

And, for what it's worth, we may just be overthinking this. You CAN already do both of these things manually, and it wouldn't take much time/effort. At the start of each week, just update your goal so that your completion date ETA (which we show you) is your target date. And then within each week, using a "collaborative" macro program, just adjust your "calorie goal" for each day to be the number of calories you actually consumed each day. All said and told, it would take less than a minute, once per week to update the goal, and less than a minute per day to update your calorie targets.

Not sure if that will make us more likely to add a "competitor mode" sooner (since maybe it WOULDN'T mean increasing risk for people with elevated eating disorder risk, since the functionality is already available), or less likely (since you CAN make the app do what you want it to do; it's not automatic and seamless, but it's also not particularly cumbersome).

All of which is to say, we're definitely aware of these feature requests, and we've definitely put a fair bit of thought into them. You can already make the app do these things pretty easily, though. We may add the option to add some automaticity eventually, but it's not our top priority at the moment.

>Larger calorie adjustments for weekends

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that for everyone in this forum, setting up a "collaborative" macro plan probably makes more sense than a "coached" plan (which is the default). The different plan types are explained here: https://help.macrofactorapp.com/macro_p ... ram_styles


Glad a few of you are enjoying the app so far!

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#23

Post by JohnHelton » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:38 am

Thanks, @gnuckols. That was very helpful. I will be switching to collaborative. I appreciate the app having both options available though.

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#24

Post by mgil » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:04 pm

Thanks for stopping by @gnuckols and providing this insight!

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#25

Post by TheGloriousW » Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:41 pm

At first I wasn't 100% on board with "adherence neutral." But I am totally getting it now. I can still track and not feel guilty that I am not adhering. In the long run I think this will workout better.

I am even thinking of going back to coached mode since it's easy to bank calories for later because you don't need laser focus on day to day numbers.

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#26

Post by BenM » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:52 pm

I said that I would probably never ever go back to tracking, but honestly, some of the feedback in this thread and especially the comments from Greg above has made me seriously reconsider that stance. When / if I decide I'm ready to diet again, MacroFactor will most definitely be on my list (just hope the database of Australian foods improves - but I doubt that'd be a deal breaker at this point).

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#27

Post by JohnHelton » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:37 am

TheGloriousW wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:41 pm At first I wasn't 100% on board with "adherence neutral." But I am totally getting it now. I can still track and not feel guilty that I am not adhering. In the long run I think this will workout better.

I am even thinking of going back to coached mode since it's easy to bank calories for later because you don't need laser focus on day to day numbers.
Intellectually, I was in favor of it immediately, but emotionally it has been a little adjustment. When I checked in, there was no pat on the back for being in compliance. Just new target numbers. Like you though, I'm starting to get it at all levels. It is forcing me to quit obsessing so much about the numbers. Just do your best. You won't be perfect. That is okay. As such I think it is really good for people that get overwhelmed by the stress of being in compliance. I know that stress causes many people to quit trying. I'm a little weird because I enjoy the obsessing, but that probably isn't totally healthy.

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#28

Post by James » Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:57 am

Trying Macrofactor and I'm liking it. I've been using a spreadsheet and cronometer for a while and this cuts out some steps.

At first it wanted to start me at like 6000 calories a day until I back filled some data and broke its little AI mind making a new coached macro plan. "You should eat 500g of protein. No. Nothing else."

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#29

Post by JohnHelton » Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:08 am

James wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:57 am Trying Macrofactor and I'm liking it. I've been using a spreadsheet and cronometer for a while and this cuts out some steps.

At first it wanted to start me at like 6000 calories a day until I back filled some data and broke its little AI mind making a new coached macro plan. "You should eat 500g of protein. No. Nothing else."
Are you saying that their coached macros broke down given your size? If so, you should let them know. I know that Eric Trexler put a lot of thought into trying to make the algorithm work for everyone. If there is a bust, then they would like getting that feedback.

I will be interested in hearing how the app works for you going forward. My experience is that it is a bit slow to react...so that it doesn't overreact. Sometimes you just have to be patient. Eventually the algorithm catches up and makes the requisite changes.

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#30

Post by James » Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:45 am

Yeah. It's got no idea what to do with someone my size that's as active as I am. Which is fine for me since I can just adjust the macros on a collaborative plan.

I think part of the problem is how it uses modifiers. For example 40% is the highest the bf% goes and it's one of the stats that goes to determine protein. Which is fine for most people even heavy ones. Add on seven days of lifting and protein calculation gets funky even on the lowest setting. It's supposed to have a minimum fat macro but I guess that went out the window.

I'll drop them a line and I'm sure there's ways to make coached macros work for the quarter ton gang but I'm not sure it would be worth the effort for outliers of the outliers.

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#31

Post by JohnHelton » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:59 am

@James I will be interesting to hear what Trexler recommends regarding protein. Dude knows his nutrition. That being said, I would guess you should just eat a fair amount of protein for the calories you eat, not worrying about it too much. Maybe that is 200g. IDK. I don't worry about fat/carb mix. Just calories and protein.

On the calorie front, I think MacroFactor is really solid. It works if you hit the app's calorie recommendation.

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#32

Post by gnuckols » Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:54 pm

James wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:45 am Yeah. It's got no idea what to do with someone my size that's as active as I am. Which is fine for me since I can just adjust the macros on a collaborative plan.

I think part of the problem is how it uses modifiers. For example 40% is the highest the bf% goes and it's one of the stats that goes to determine protein. Which is fine for most people even heavy ones. Add on seven days of lifting and protein calculation gets funky even on the lowest setting. It's supposed to have a minimum fat macro but I guess that went out the window.

I'll drop them a line and I'm sure there's ways to make coached macros work for the quarter ton gang but I'm not sure it would be worth the effort for outliers of the outliers.
We actually have some macro recommendation updates coming down the pipe with bigger folks in mind. The biggest is capping the protein recommendations at 250g/day for everyone. I really can't conceive of a reason why anyone would need more protein than that (and if someone thinks they need more than that, they'd probably opt for a collaborative plan anyway)

We'll also look into capping initial BMR (and by extension TDEE) estimates as well. Yours was a use case we hadn't considered. From the jump, it was probably assuming you had 300lbs of lean mass, which likely isn't completely accurate. haha

If you have any questions or run into any other issues, feel free to drop us a line. My inbox (FB, Reddit, IG, or email) is always open

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#33

Post by James » Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:46 am

That's good to hear. I got an email last night too saying about the same.

The BMR and protein caps should help extra large people getting started on weight loss. The initial BMR one especially. I remember a few years ago plugging numbers into an online calculator and getting told to eat 4000 calories a day and was confused when I started gaining. Nope, it doesn't scale like people would think and you still need to eat 1800-2400 to be in a deficit.

Though I guess it's not as big a deal with something like macro factor that automatically adjusts for you over time.

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#34

Post by JohnHelton » Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:45 pm

So I made the mistake of cutting my step count at the same time I switched to a bulk. The app increased my calories just as I was decreasing my expenditure. Thus, I gained a bit more weight faster than I would have liked. Not a big deal as the app has now caught up and has dialed my calories back. It has me eating about 3000 calories per day to gain 0.25 lbs/week. Understanding the algorithm, I knew it would catch up eventually.

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#35

Post by James » Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:30 am

Trial is up and I'm in for six months. I like it.

It took some getting used to but adding meals and tracking is really easy. I didn't like the no favorites at first but the app remembers frequent foods and when you eat them so a favorites list is redundant. The weekly check in is a good feature for something that adjusts as you put in data so you don't have to remember yourself. I still forget you can make a "plate" instead of adding one thing at a time but it's a time saver when I remember. The recipe feature is good for actual recipes but it's handy for prepared foods like stuffing. Add the box of dry stuffing and butter and you have the prepared version saved for when you make it again.

The expenditure seems on point now. It's climbed to 4347 by around 50~ calories a day since the initial drop to 3k from 6k. Seems to be much better than my spreadsheet. Plus I don't have to think about it too much. Has me on track for a 3lbs drop a week.

My one complaint is common foods are all generic. Like "chicken breast" instead of the USDA system of Poultry, Chicken, Breast, Boneless, Skinless, Cooked, Roasted that I'm used to from cronometer. Which I guess you really don't need. So that's fine.

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#36

Post by gnuckols » Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:06 pm

James wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:30 am My one complaint is common foods are all generic. Like "chicken breast" instead of the USDA system of Poultry, Chicken, Breast, Boneless, Skinless, Cooked, Roasted that I'm used to from cronometer. Which I guess you really don't need. So that's fine.
This should actually be addressed soon. We're adding the NCCDB (which is the main database that gives Cronometer such excellent micronutrient coverage) and the rest of the USDA food entries (that weren't already used by our other databases) in an update that should be out within the next month. I don't think our descriptions will be quite that wordy (i.e. it may be something more like "boneless skinless chicken breast, roasted"), but we should have very comparable common foods coverage.

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#37

Post by JohnHelton » Wed May 04, 2022 9:55 am

The app works great for cutting. It works great for bulking too if one has the ability to stay compliant 7 days per week...even though he has awoken the bear. I don't have that control, always blowing through my calories on Friday and Saturday. So here is my solution. Sunday - Thursday I treat myself like I'm on a cut, following the app calorie prescription closely. On Friday and Saturday, I tell the app about the food that is in compliance, and I don't tell it about my indulgences. As such, over time the app will reduce my expenditure number such that the calories that I have available Sunday - Thursday are less, compensating for my binges. I could potentially accomplish the same by just entering nothing on Friday and Saturday. We'll see if this works. Nothing else I've tried has controlled how quickly I bulk.

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#38

Post by mgil » Wed May 04, 2022 3:13 pm

JohnHelton wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 9:55 am The app works great for cutting. It works great for bulking too if one has the ability to stay compliant 7 days per week...even though he has awoken the bear. I don't have that control, always blowing through my calories on Friday and Saturday. So here is my solution. Sunday - Thursday I treat myself like I'm on a cut, following the app calorie prescription closely. On Friday and Saturday, I tell the app about the food that is in compliance, and I don't tell it about my indulgences. As such, over time the app will reduce my expenditure number such that the calories that I have available Sunday - Thursday are less, compensating for my binges. I could potentially accomplish the same by just entering nothing on Friday and Saturday. We'll see if this works. Nothing else I've tried has controlled how quickly I bulk.
Have you mentioned this to @gnuckols?

It might be a viable strategy for others also. He’s usually pretty available on his subreddit.

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#39

Post by JohnHelton » Wed May 04, 2022 3:20 pm

mgil wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 3:13 pm
JohnHelton wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 9:55 am The app works great for cutting. It works great for bulking too if one has the ability to stay compliant 7 days per week...even though he has awoken the bear. I don't have that control, always blowing through my calories on Friday and Saturday. So here is my solution. Sunday - Thursday I treat myself like I'm on a cut, following the app calorie prescription closely. On Friday and Saturday, I tell the app about the food that is in compliance, and I don't tell it about my indulgences. As such, over time the app will reduce my expenditure number such that the calories that I have available Sunday - Thursday are less, compensating for my binges. I could potentially accomplish the same by just entering nothing on Friday and Saturday. We'll see if this works. Nothing else I've tried has controlled how quickly I bulk.
Have you mentioned this to @gnuckols?

It might be a viable strategy for others also. He’s usually pretty available on his subreddit.
I'm on the Facebook group, but I haven't recommended it there. I thought I would see if it works for me before recommending it to others.

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Re: Stronger By Science - MacroFactor App

#40

Post by mgil » Wed May 04, 2022 3:28 pm

Sounds good. Hope the experiment works!

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