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Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:36 am
by SnakePlissken
BBM's templates have been hit and miss for me. I ran the Bridge 1.0 last summer when I abandoned the TM and I got all my gains back plus some (doing singles at 8 that were definitely 10s on the TM). I did some of my own programming for months and eventually got the 12 Week Press Template because I was feeling bored and didn't know what to do. I ran it for 7 weeks and yesterday was supposed to be Week 8, Day 1 and I'm ready to quit.
I won't give away details on a paid program, but it's essentially a building phase in the first half and more of a taper in the 2nd half with a deload in the middle. I was making great gains of 5 and sometimes 8-10 lb jumps on my lifts week to week until Week 5 I hit a wall and kept with it even though my numbers started dropping. Couldn't wait for the deload and even the week after the deload my numbers dropped even more and I'm just as sore as I was when the deload week started.
TL;DR I thought BBM was the ticket for me, but I'm completely run down and see no reason to continue dropping my numbers. I'm probably going to go back to self programming, but using ES and doing something similar to what got me good results the first 4 weeks on their Press Template.
Anyone else have similar experiences?
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:08 am
by mgil
SnakePlissken wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:36 am I was making great gains of 5 and
sometimes 8-10 lb jumps on my lifts week to week until Week 5 I hit a wall and kept with it even though my numbers started dropping. Couldn't wait for the deload and even the week after the deload my numbers dropped even more and I'm just as sore as I was when the deload week started.
What’s in bold is concerning. What lifts were you making that much progress on and in what rep range?
I’m thinking you kinda peaked early and then ground yourself up. If you’d stayed with smaller jumps (like 1% e1RM per week or so) you might have had a different transitional phase?
This stuff is tricky for sure. I haven’t run any BBM templates, but I do know what missing the peak or peaking too early feels like.
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:44 am
by SnakePlissken
mgil wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:08 am
SnakePlissken wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:36 am I was making great gains of 5 and
sometimes 8-10 lb jumps on my lifts week to week until Week 5 I hit a wall and kept with it even though my numbers started dropping. Couldn't wait for the deload and even the week after the deload my numbers dropped even more and I'm just as sore as I was when the deload week started.
What’s in bold is concerning. What lifts were you making that much progress on and in what rep range?
I’m thinking you kinda peaked early and then ground yourself up. If you’d stayed with smaller jumps (like 1% e1RM per week or so) you might have had a different transitional phase?
This stuff is tricky for sure. I haven’t run any BBM templates, but I do know what missing the peak or peaking too early feels like.
That was what I was thinking at the time too, but some of that gain was due to my starting numbers being slightly low to start. Those jumps are all on the 1@8s too. My deadlift for Ex on the 1@8 sets
Week 1, 405x1@7.5
Week 2, 415x1@7.5
Week 3, 425x1@7.5
Week 4, 435x1@8
Week 5, 440x1@8.5
Week 6, 430x1@8
Week 7, 430x1@9
And my Bench
Week 1, 225x1@8
Week 2, 228x1@7.5
Week 3, 235x1@8
Week 4, 240x1@8
Week 5, 240x1@9
Week 6, 232x1@8
Week 7, 232x1@8
In my notes, I felt on fire weeks 1 to 4 and week 5 is when I started feeling sluggish, felt like i got hit by a truck by the end of week 6 and tapered some volume off at the end of it. Week 7 was the deload week.
Edit: Rep ranges on all the following sets were 5s on Deadlift and 4s on Bench. Squat and Press were the same respective, but their jumps looking back were more reasonable.
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:51 am
by mgil
How much singles practice had you done prior to this template?
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:21 am
by SnakePlissken
mgil wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:51 am
How much singles practice had you done prior to this template?
A lot. I usually did a 1@8 prior to all my main lifts, but none of the assistance or supplemental which was introduced around week 5 or 6 on this template.
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:00 am
by mgil
SnakePlissken wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:21 am
mgil wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:51 am
How much singles practice had you done prior to this template?
A lot. I usually did a 1@8 prior to all my main lifts, but none of the assistance or supplemental which was introduced around week 5 or 6 on this template.
So the extra volume coincided with the burnout?
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:08 am
by Testiclaw
It's pretty common in BBM (and some older RTS) templates to have somewhat of a "surge" before the taper/low-stress going into the final week and testing.
It isn't uncommon to see a slight dip in top-end performance before you pull-up, so to speak.
I would be curious what your end results were on this template?
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:41 am
by SnakePlissken
@mgil The template does taper up a bit over the weeks. Week 1 is low stress, Week 2 ups it and once you hit week 3 it remains fairly consistent through week 6
@Testiclaw The dip feels more than slight. I've been feeling beat up for 3 weeks now and Week 8 throws you back into ramping intensity. My squat for instance went from Week 1, 375x1@8 to week 8, 375x1@9. My best week was week 5 when I did 395x1@8 though.
I'm curious too which is the only reason I would keep doing this template, but I don't want to waste 5 weeks and see my numbers keep dropping. I feel like I should take a second deload week and then maybe come back if anything.
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:50 am
by damufunman
SnakePlissken wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:44 am
That was what I was thinking at the time too, but some of that gain was due to my starting numbers being slightly low to start. Those jumps are all on the 1@8s too. My deadlift for Ex on the 1@8 sets
Week 1, 405x1@7.5
Week 2, 415x1@7.5
Week 3, 425x1@7.5
Week 4, 435x1@8
Week 5, 440x1@8.5
Week 6, 430x1@8
Week 7, 430x1@9
And my Bench
Week 1, 225x1@8
Week 2, 228x1@7.5
Week 3, 235x1@8
Week 4, 240x1@8
Week 5, 240x1@9
Week 6, 232x1@8
Week 7, 232x1@8
Not sure about the details wrt to program and how that lines up with above, was the building portion the first 4 weeks? Maybe you responded well to whatever you were doing there, and then abruptly changed to something that didn't work for whatever reason?
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:10 am
by SnakePlissken
damufunman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:50 am
SnakePlissken wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:44 am
That was what I was thinking at the time too, but some of that gain was due to my starting numbers being slightly low to start. Those jumps are all on the 1@8s too. My deadlift for Ex on the 1@8 sets
Week 1, 405x1@7.5
Week 2, 415x1@7.5
Week 3, 425x1@7.5
Week 4, 435x1@8
Week 5, 440x1@8.5
Week 6, 430x1@8
Week 7, 430x1@9
And my Bench
Week 1, 225x1@8
Week 2, 228x1@7.5
Week 3, 235x1@8
Week 4, 240x1@8
Week 5, 240x1@9
Week 6, 232x1@8
Week 7, 232x1@8
Not sure about the details wrt to program and how that lines up with above, was the building portion the first 4 weeks? Maybe you responded well to whatever you were doing there, and then abruptly changed to something that didn't work for whatever reason?
Week 1, Low stress (cap 3 sets on all the mains, secondary and tertiary movements)
Week 2, 4 working sets on the mains and 3-5 on the secondary and tertiary movements
Week 3, Add 1 working set to all the mains, and 0-1 more on the secondary and tertiary movements
Week 4, Repeat
Week 5, Slightly bump intensity on Mains
Week 6, Repeat
Week 7, Deload
That's the first half. I agree that whatever I did, I should've gotten out after I finished week 4 and done something like a pivot then. That's why i'm strongly considering using something like this in the future, but for a shorter time period. 5 straight weeks of volume building just buried me.
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:49 am
by James
Might be a dumb question but how honest were you on rating back off sets? Fudging the rpe on those would be a bad idea.
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:41 am
by ChasingCurls69
It seems like the first few weeks had some aggressive jumps and now you're just seeing the normal variance in those 1@8 singles, but still overshooting by going for a specific weight. What does your warm up going into the 1@8's look like? Sometimes the warm up doesn't set you up to choose weight carefully enough if the jumps leading to the 1@8 are too big.
I would also expect to be more beat up if I overshot with 1@9 and then did an @9 back-off followed by the rest of the volume even if that volume is relatively ez in comparison.
Edit: you could drop all the RPEs by 1 for the next two weeks to see if that helps, and if you rerun the template you could try that for the entire first block as well and then do the second block with 1@8's going into the peak.
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:18 am
by SnakePlissken
@James not a dumb question because I used to rate my RPE badly on my Bench and Press. From TM, I know what RPE 10s are like from failed reps. I typically rate my RPE on Squat and DL by the traditional "how many left in the tank." I rate my Presses by bar speed mainly because they're a better indicator. Sometimes I'd feel like I had 2 more on a Bench and the next rep would fail.
@c@ChasingCurls69 I actually didn't think too much about the jumps in warmup. My typical Warm Up to 1@8s is 5/3/1s and I usually shoot for 50lb or less jump from my last Warmup single to the 1@8 and used that last warmup to gage. In my notes on Week 5 I had written that the last warmup felt good, but then the 1@8 would underperform. Maybe I shouldn't be using the last warmup to gage the 1@8 so much. Or just cap a max jump (say max jump of 5lb on a lift week-to-week)?
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:28 am
by dw
I also have a hard time with RPE on benches. RPE 9 and sometimes even 10 don't really feel that hard to me, just slow.
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:35 pm
by ChasingCurls69
@SnakePlissken based on that, I would put the last warm up closer for sure. Either 1@6, 1@7, 1@8, or 1@6, 1@8 and then adjust the weight selection based on that last warm up that is within 5-10%. Less aggressive planned increases like 5lbs per week is also good, since realistically you are not getting 2-3% stronger week over week at this point. 50lbs between last warm up and 1@8-9 even in the 400's is a massive jump that makes it hard to accurately choose that top weight.
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:43 pm
by SnakePlissken
ChasingCurls69 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:35 pm
@SnakePlissken based on that, I would put the last warm up closer for sure. Either 1@6, 1@7, 1@8, or 1@6, 1@8 and then adjust the weight selection based on that last warm up that is within 5-10%. Less aggressive planned increases like 5lbs per week is also good, since realistically you are not getting 2-3% stronger week over week at this point. 50lbs between last warm up and 1@8-9 even in the 400's is a massive jump that makes it hard to accurately choose that top weight.
I think I'm going to adopt these on the next run through. Not going to jump straight back into this program again. I'm going to Pivot this week and try something custom to myself built around MM concepts. I think my body just needs a break from high intensity for a little bit.
You're also right that I need to check myself. I got greedy on those deadlifts because they kept feeling great week after week.
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:08 pm
by Testiclaw
For what it's worth...
1) I generally make 5% jumps or less once I get within a few sets of my planned top-set.
2) I usually aim to repeat previous top-sets for any week where I add volume/additional drop-sets.
3) I try not to expect to add much (if anything) to the bar for weeks at a time.
If our strength increased 10% a year, a fairly significant amount, how much of that needs to happen between every Monday? Not much.
I also drop a fair amount of recommended volume from "traditional" workloads for myself.
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:45 pm
by DanCR
Testiclaw wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:08 pm
For what it's worth...
1) I generally make 5% jumps or less once I get within a few sets of my planned top-set.
2) I usually aim to repeat previous top-sets for any week where I add volume/additional drop-sets.
3) I try not to expect to add much (if anything) to the bar for weeks at a time.
If our strength increased 10% a year, a fairly significant amount, how much of that needs to happen between every Monday? Not much.
I also drop a fair amount of recommended volume from "traditional" workloads for myself.
I feel a bit ridiculous saying "same here," in that you're much, much stronger than I am, but same here. Example work up from my bench press session this evening, which ended in the most I've put up since pre-pandemic
45x5
135x5
185x5
225x5
250x3
265x1
275x1
285x1
I've repeatedly had folks with opinions tell me that I'm giving up some top end strength by warming up so close to it, as well as by doing too much alleged junk volume on the way up. When I listened to them, I repeatedly got stapled by shit that I previously had hit with no problem. I don't listen anymore.
Although not lately as I've raced back to pre-pandemic strength levels, I also like keeping the top end the same if I'm going to add volume, although in my case "volume" usually just means an extra rep, or a bit of extra weight, on the way up. So for example, in normal times, next time in I'd do exactly what's shown above, except I might do 250x4 on the way up, or maybe add weight and drop a rep for 255x2, and then work that back to a triple. Depends how I feel. But the point is that the sets above it would stay the same. Eventually, the "volume" below will slowly push up the top, when I feel it's there.
Once the top end plateaus, I'll stay there for weeks, just slowly building a wider and wider base beneath it until I can make it move again.
I loathe back off sets and have ditched them entirely. Once I hit a top single, I'm mentally "done" with that movement. I'd much rather do some type of assistance movement for additional volume. Right now I'm using the press as extra "volume" for bench, just hitting far-from-failure straight sets after.
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:10 am
by SnakePlissken
Testiclaw wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:08 pm
For what it's worth...
1) I generally make 5% jumps or less once I get within a few sets of my planned top-set.
2) I usually aim to repeat previous top-sets for any week where I add volume/additional drop-sets.
3) I try not to expect to add much (if anything) to the bar for weeks at a time.
If our strength increased 10% a year, a fairly significant amount, how much of that needs to happen between every Monday? Not much.
I also drop a fair amount of recommended volume from "traditional" workloads for myself.
I like the recommendation about repeating a weight if you've upped the volume. This is where I went wrong with the 10 lb deadlift jumps on weeks 1-3. Even though I felt great, I guess it's like a loan in that I'm paying it back now.
For the first recommendation, are you saying that's true for just singles or even if your top set was like a 5?
Re: Experiences on BBM Templates
Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:17 am
by SnakePlissken
DCR wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:45 pm
I've repeatedly had folks with opinions tell me that I'm giving up some top end strength by warming up so close to it, as well as by doing too much alleged junk volume on the way up.
This is what I've heard lots of times in the past. What's sad to me is I used to do a lot more warmups for my Bench and Press like this and always felt solid on the top sets (when I was doing SS). I dropped it when I moved to the TM because I was trying to save my strength. Never did it for Squat or Deadlift though.
A typical bench workout if I was working up to 225 would be
2x5@45
1x5@95
1x3@135
1x2@175
1x1@205
A typical Deadlift workout if I was working up to 405 would be
2x5@45
1x5@135
1x3@225
1x2@315
1x1@365