Experiences on BBM Templates

[mgil]

Caveat: I haven’t really dug into the A2S template/progression spreadsheet. So there may be notions of that data book that cover what I’m saying below.

I think for a lot of post-novice, not-in-their-anabolic-prime trainees, a 3-month schedule of session Rx is too long. There are way too many external variables to assess with this level of frequency, even if the template is RPE/RIR based. Mainly because people have it stuck in their heads that they care going to see concurrent gains in all lifts over the 3 month scheme. With a coach in the loop, or something like the RTS method with the notion of a pivot block (which need not change much of anything, lift-wise), people have a method of diagnosis and reassessment when something isn’t working.

This isn’t any sort of indictment of any organization, rather a general template doesn’t work in general (oh, the irony…). It’s like educational curricula, wherein there’s a logical progression that hits about 80% for the overall cohort, but isn’t stellar for any given individual. And if it is easy to make all the goals on for a significant portion of the general population, it’s likely because it was too easy.

Template probably have the best value for someone who’s run a generic progressive overload method, moved on to individual or group coaching, and simply needs a framework to work inside with a reduced cash outlay and doesn’t trust themselves, for whatever reasons, to write their own scheme. And they know enough when it’s time to switch things up.

Saying this as a dude who has needed to change things usually about 3-4 weeks into a 12 week block. I used to, like many others here, think that was bad juju and “program hopping”. No, it’s very similar to the notion of a pivot, just with less organization and diagnosis. Lift and listen long enough and this stuff makes more sense.

[OrderInChaos]

Saying this as a dude who has needed to change things usually about 3-4 weeks into a 12 week block. I used to, like many others here, think that was bad juju and “program hopping”. No, it’s very similar to the notion of a pivot, just with less organization and diagnosis. Lift and listen long enough and this stuff makes more sense.

^
Evolution of a split and progression schemes hit this wicket for me big time. I've had a ton of success since ~Thanksgiving 2021 with lots of volume conducted in the 8-12 reps/set range for 'supplemental compounds' (RDLs, BTN OHPs, Swiss Bench, etc) that didn't need much fussing. Fell off the wagon of several strict-ish compound-heavy programs for 'main lift' higher intensity work and was floundering a little. Then...

Bought MacroFactor and got more serious about getting to a healthy BW a few weeks back - 4 day U/L with many sets of 12 heavy-ish RDLs was a no go. Reverting to a simpler 3 day split and playing with reps, variants, and split (which lifts go where between the 3 days, not so much total innovation) in about 2 week increments has been helpful. Got a killer balance of running, rowing, bodyweight, and lifting now, able to call an audible as needed if depleted. No need for AI readiness ratings

Probably going to grow more stable (6-8 week increments of minimal to no change?) for a while as the tolerance for stagnation on Big 3 is much higher with pretty sizeable deficit. But those 2-6 weeks of 'fuckarounditis' have been far from unproductive.

[Grewester]

IMHO, BBM templates are horribly boring and ground me into a paste. I ran the original 12 week Strength, 3 and 4 day Hypertrophy and Powerbuilding 2. The original 12 week strength was by far the most brutal. The sessions were typically over 2 hours long even with timed rest periods, and I absolutely hated doing heavy deadlifts the day after heavy squats. My low back could never adjust, and by about the 4th week I was begging for a deload. I was a single dude in college at the time, life stress was pretty low overall and the program still buried me. The templates made me absolutely dread training, because I knew each session would be a marathon, I was fatigued as hell, and the thought of doing tempo squats and a 3 count pause bench was fucking agonizing.

That said, I do like the BBM crew and the contributions they’ve made to the lifting community. I just don’t jive with their training style.

You’d probably like the way Austin has his personal training set up lately. It’s hiding somewhere in a recent thread here. More focused on singles and low fatigue follow on work, with added accessories of non barbell variety.

I’m with you on the templates. The endurance one isn’t hyper sophisticated but is where I had best success.

Funny enough, that's kind of how I structure my training right now. I run an upper-lower split with each day emphasizing a certain lift, and I swap out the main exercise if I either A: stall out on that lift Or B: get burned out on it. The past few weeks Ive been doing Incline bench instead of regular flat bench and high bar squats instead of low bar. So far I've been making great progress on both lifts and more importantly, it has kept training fresh! I've been debating on buying a Rogue trap bar just for a change of pace on deadlifts. I have a fairly basic garage gym setup so my options for exercise variations can be limited. I'll often see videos of the high-volume 4 day full-body splits RTS has their lifters use, and I think: "how does anyone find that enjoyable long-term?"

For me, lifting is a hobby that has some health benefits. Why force myself into doing routines that I absolutely dread, even if they may be more "optimal". Life is too short to only squat, bench and deadlift.

[Grewester]

@Grewester regarding the Hypertrophy and Powerbuilding templates, what were the measurable or visible differences for your physique at start and finish?

Is cardio on GPP days scheduled prior to lifting? Those template descriptions seem fairly similar.

Just curious. Years ago I hired Jordan for nutrition and programming; I was disappointed with the programming coaching, but nutrition was ok. I hired Austin because he's more attentive and invested in lifter outcomes, and I had long running back issues, and was primarily trying to clear my stupid impulses. I eventually just went back to my own stuff, since the issues appeared to be caused/aggravated by conventional deadlifts (since then I've also removed low bar squats, becaus even low intensity and/or moderate volume aggravates the same part of my back).

If you want to hire a BBM coach for programming, my money would be with Austin.

If your focus is more on powerbuilding, I'd try one of the Renaissance Periodization physique templates. I have never used them, but their content and their direct experience and specialization with physique focuses is greater.

No better or worse than any other hypertrophy program honestly, but then again I put on muscle/gain weight very easily. So much so that finding jeans that fit my thunder thighs is near impossible. I'm not trying to brag here, just giving you important context.

The GPP days are scheduled on two of your 'off days' so typically a Wednesday and Saturday.

Yeah, I've seen several of Jordan's training vlogs/logs and I just don't like that programming style. It's way too much volume for me, it takes up a lot of time, and only doing SBD with their slight variations is just so dull and boring. I'm glad it works for him though, you can't argue with the results.

[Allentown]

I found Powerbuilding III very enjoyable to run. Ran it during a cut, so probably less effective than it could have been, but my 1RM roughly tracked to my starting e1RM while dropping 10lbs BW.

[SnakePlissken]

I found Powerbuilding III very enjoyable to run. Ran it during a cut, so probably less effective than it could have been, but my 1RM roughly tracked to my starting e1RM while dropping 10lbs BW.

Did you rate your RPE 10s as physically couldn't do anymore or when you had major form breakdown?

[Allentown]

I found Powerbuilding III very enjoyable to run. Ran it during a cut, so probably less effective than it could have been, but my 1RM roughly tracked to my starting e1RM while dropping 10lbs BW.

Did you rate your RPE 10s as physically couldn't do anymore or when you had major form breakdown?

The only RPE 10 you do in PBIII is test day at the end of the program, and yeah I failed the 3rd rep of each lift.

[SnakePlissken]

I found Powerbuilding III very enjoyable to run. Ran it during a cut, so probably less effective than it could have been, but my 1RM roughly tracked to my starting e1RM while dropping 10lbs BW.

Did you rate your RPE 10s as physically couldn't do anymore or when you had major form breakdown?

The only RPE 10 you do in PBIII is test day at the end of the program, and yeah I failed the 3rd rep of each lift.

Was wondering more for general burnout. When I ran BBM templates I rated RPE based on absolute failure whereas now I do it based on form breakdown or just as a general "fatigue index" in high reps.

I think my RPE10 today is basically an 8.5 to a 9 back then and I think it's a big reason why I got run down by their templates.

[Allentown]

Oh, yeah I was going more on "could I survive another rep" for RPE.

[FredM]

Template probably have the best value for someone who’s run a generic progressive overload method, moved on to individual or group coaching, and simply needs a framework to work inside with a reduced cash outlay and doesn’t trust themselves, for whatever reasons, to write their own scheme. And they know enough when it’s time to switch things up.

Saying this as a dude who has needed to change things usually about 3-4 weeks into a 12 week block. I used to, like many others here, think that was bad juju and “program hopping”. No, it’s very similar to the notion of a pivot, just with less organization and diagnosis. Lift and listen long enough and this stuff makes more sense.

This is why, despite owning 4+ BBM templates, I always end up running Nuckols free 4 week templates instead. Running it for bench again. The shorter time means life can get in the way (I couldn't workout more than one day last week so I just did a 1@8 with some backoffs and started week 3 on week 4), and they almost always work at regaining lost strength (and sometimes setting PRs). They also never beat me up like BBM templates can. Honestly still can't believe they're free. I'm hoping he does a JuggAI equivalent in the future.

[xuerebx]

Are all BBM templates based on RPE ratings? It didn't go well for me using RP's RIR methods, so RPE ratings wouldn't suit me. I much prefer A2S reps-to-failure approach as it's just easier.

[AlanMackey]

Are all BBM templates based on RPE ratings? It didn't go well for me using RP's RIR methods, so RPE ratings wouldn't suit me. I much prefer A2S reps-to-failure approach as it's just easier.

What’s the difference between RPE/RIR and Reps-to-Failure?

[James]

Reps to failure is just another way to say AMRAP. A few of the A2S templates use last set AMRAPs and rep goals to autoregulate the next week's training max.

[James]

Are all BBM templates based on RPE ratings? It didn't go well for me using RP's RIR methods, so RPE ratings wouldn't suit me. I much prefer A2S reps-to-failure approach as it's just easier.

They use a mix of RPE and percentages. Like 1@8 then do 5x5 with 70% of e1rm or 5@6,5@7,5@8 repeat @8 with for 2x5.

I think the only time BBM uses AMRAPs is on hypertrophy templates then its usually % for an amrap then 2x12 with that weight or a drop in weight.

[janoycresva]

Are all BBM templates based on RPE ratings? It didn't go well for me using RP's RIR methods, so RPE ratings wouldn't suit me. I much prefer A2S reps-to-failure approach as it's just easier.

What’s the difference between RPE/RIR and Reps-to-Failure?

With the RIR/RPE templates you try to gauge how many more reps you could have done, with the RTF version you try it and find out

[AlanMackey]

Reps to failure is just another way to say AMRAP. A few of the A2S templates use last set AMRAPs and rep goals to autoregulate the next week's training max.

With the RIR/RPE templates you try to gauge how many more reps you could have done, with the RTF version you try it and find out

Got it, thanks.

[xuerebx]

Are all BBM templates based on RPE ratings? It didn't go well for me using RP's RIR methods, so RPE ratings wouldn't suit me. I much prefer A2S reps-to-failure approach as it's just easier.

They use a mix of RPE and percentages. Like 1@8 then do 5x5 with 70% of e1rm or 5@6,5@7,5@8 repeat @8 with for 2x5.

I think the only time BBM uses AMRAPs is on hypertrophy templates then its usually % for an amrap then 2x12 with that weight or a drop in weight.

I see, thanks. Maybe I'll look into the hypertrophy template one day then.

[cole]

Just finished 13 week cycle of BBM strength III

Pros: 4 day session that is simple and organized and sessions didnt take too long

Cons: deload week was weird, more like a pivot week and I came back the next week feeling detrained and rusty. I would omit it. Also, percentages and RPEs too high to recover from pretty much every week. I lowered the RPEs and backoff % significantly.

Gainz: well see tomorrow (meet day)

https://ibb.co/3YHqmfT

[brkriete]

They use a mix of RPE and percentages. Like 1@8 then do 5x5 with 70% of e1rm or 5@6,5@7,5@8 repeat @8 with for 2x5.

I know this is just an example but every time I see a "prescription" like the latter it makes my eye twitch. Do people keep a laptop in the gym with Excel open? (to say nothing of the endless questions around "should I adjust weight / rest time / whatever to get the right RPE?").

[James]

Google Sheets maybe.