Average 2 Savage 2

[dw]

They were talking about setting the TM low for the hypertrophy template I think.

[mouse]

They were talking about setting the TM low for the hypertrophy template I think.

^ yerp

I don't see the point of an intentional lower TM than actual max/erm because the program simply isn't high enough intensity to require any extra undershooting

In my specific situation I'll be coming right off specializing towards two max singles (log and axle dead), and diving right in to 4x10+ on squats/deads is more than likely to cause my untimely death if I use a normal TM from what I can tell haha...

When I set it up using a known (again just DLs here) max it has me aiming for 4x10+ at ~20 lbs heavier than my highest set of 10 I've done.

I almost never spend time in those rep ranges, so the artificially low TM would be to buy me some time while I get used to it.

[AllM1ght]

They were talking about setting the TM low for the hypertrophy template I think.

^ yerp

I don't see the point of an intentional lower TM than actual max/erm because the program simply isn't high enough intensity to require any extra undershooting

In my specific situation I'll be coming right off specializing towards two max singles (log and axle dead), and diving right in to 4x10+ on squats/deads is more than likely to cause my untimely death if I use a normal TM from what I can tell haha...

When I set it up using a known (again just DLs here) max it has me aiming for 4x10+ at ~20 lbs heavier than my highest set of 10 I've done.

I almost never spend time in those rep ranges, so the artificially low TM would be to buy me some time while I get used to it.

Fair

[Culican]

I view TM as a tool to regulate load, and which is related to 1RM, but not equal, depending on fatigue, rep ranges and so forth.

Exactly how I look at it.

[houzi]

Probably starting the Last Set RIR template next week. Looking forward to finally running a program I can stick with for a longer period of time. Anyway...

1. I really dont care about OHP so I was going to replace the OHP and OHP Auxilliary with Bench variations since Bench is my main focus. However is it worth keeping in at least one OHP/vert pressing movement?

2. Under the drop down tab for Deadlift Auxilliaries it has all the standard movements, but interestingly no Pause Deadlifts. Is there a reason for this? Is Nuckols not a fan, or is there some sort of other reason against doing them in this program? Was going to use them to help clean up my awful deadlift technique.

[AllM1ght]

Probably starting the Last Set RIR template next week. Looking forward to finally running a program I can stick with for a longer period of time. Anyway...

1. I really dont care about OHP so I was going to replace the OHP and OHP Auxilliary with Bench variations since Bench is my main focus. However is it worth keeping in at least one OHP/vert pressing movement?

2. Under the drop down tab for Deadlift Auxilliaries it has all the standard movements, but interestingly no Pause Deadlifts. Is there a reason for this? Is Nuckols not a fan, or is there some sort of other reason against doing them in this program? Was going to use them to help clean up my awful deadlift technique.

1. Personally I found it good with 4 bench and 1 press slot, since I ran 5 days I stuck that on Wednesday for a little bench break midweek.

2. Greg's said they are standard suggestions and don't limit your options to just those exercises, pauses are great.
You could also pause your main deadlift for a block and still do an assistance with rdl/sldl etc.

[CeeKa]

So I just finished Average 2 Savage 2.0 last friday with some very satisfying PRs. Since the subreddit is private I thought I'd also share my experience here in case anyone is interested in it.

SpoilerShow

Here's a brief review of my experience with the Average to Savage 2.0 program - Reps to Failure, three days per week version.

Basic information:

I'm a 27 year old, 180 cm tall and right now 88 kg heavy male with gym experience of probably around ten years total. Much of that time was the more or less beginner bodybuilding-type programming that most teens start out with, but I slowly got into doing the heavy lifts a few years in.
My last PRs were set about two years ago and my programming has been very on and off since then. I did a lot of program hopping because I never really liked the templates that I tried, had minor injuries every now and then, and took short breaks for holidays as usual. Then at the beginning of this year, of course, my gym was closed and I didn't do any sports at all for just about two or three months. After the re-opening I started out again with two weeks of simple linear progression and then jumped right into A2S with rough estimations for my training maxes. I reckon those estimations were somewhat accurate or maybe 5-10 kg lower than my actual maxes at that time, but I wanted to start the program conservatively.

Lift	PR two years ago (90 kg BW)	e1RM before A2S (81 kg BW)	PRs after A2S (88 kg BW)
Squat	187.5 kg	160 kg	210kg
Bench Press (paused)	130 kg	110kg	140 kg
Deadlift	220	180	240 kg

Evaluation:

Long story short, I was at the same time very surprised and very satisfied with how well the training and the eventual PR attempts went. My main goal was to achieve a 200 kg squat, but I was well able to outperform what I thought was possible. I'm sure a lot of this came through my ongoing training motivation, which I'm sure was mainly because this specific programming type suited me well.
To be clear,I achieved my previous PRs from two years ago doing an RPE-based strength template from Barbell Medicine. It is a very well written program that works probably just as fine as one would expect from those coaches, but I wasn't enjoying it very much. The RPE/RIR system puts me somewhat under pressure to hit the correct target and furthermore the general training intensity was too high for my liking. And this is where the A2S - RtF version was able to shine for me: Perform four sets of mostly moderate effor or at least little struggle, and then finish the lift with only one set that required somewhat strict concentration. Perfect for me.

Note on the sets with reps to failure: So basically, I was always able to hit more reps than the target was. At first, due to conservative e1RMs, I always hit +5 reps, but also later during the program I didn't have any problems getting more than the target. But it might also be important to note, that I never went past +5 reps. Reason for that was that the autoregulation doesn't add more weight on the TM if I hit more than +5 reps - so why would I do more? And at the same time this allowed me to almost never experience any heavy fatigue or regeneration issues due to an abnormal amount of reps.

For the auxiliary lifts I chose only exercises that I somewhat enjoy. Seriously, I simply don't want to hate my training but rather enjoy it as much as I can. So this is how I set up exercises and variations:

Squat auxiliary 1	Front squat* / Safety Bar Squat
Squat auxiliary 2	Beltless squat
Bench auxiliary 1	Close grip bench press
Bench auxiliary 2	DB bench press
OHP auxiliary	DB OHP
Back exercise on day 1 and 3	Pull-ups
Back exercise on day 2	Barbell rows
Accessories	-

*Front squats sucked all the way through. I pushed through for 17 weeks and then replaced them with SSB squats because front squats were always uncomfortable and without a doubt made my right knee hurt a lot (previously torn ACL from 7 years ago with complicated recovery). SSB squats were a delight in comparison and I will keep doing them.

I chose not to do any more accessories during this cycle and I don't feel that I missed something. For my future programming, I will simply repeat A2S - RtF with three days a week, only replacing the DB bench press with either paused bench press or spoto press (reason being that my gym has no heavy enough dumbbells that I would need now). I might also change from barbell rows to cable rows or landmines, because every now and then my back starts hurting a little the day after I do them.


Nutrition:

I have always been a bad eater in my life, meaning that I have a hard time getting in enough calories without stuffing myself full. I don't track macros at all (I did for 12 weeks before hitting my PRs two years ago), mainly because I absolutely hate it. And because I enjoy cooking and eating what I like. I do try to get some protein in every meal, but on average that would be no more than 100 g per day. I could add some on top by drinking shakes, but I can't do whey (irritates my skin) and all alternatives taste like shit. I don't care much about carbs or fat, since I'm already having difficulties with reaching enough calories at the end of the day. During the last 20 weeks I primarily tried to simply eat more by stuffing myself. Because I want to get to 93 kg some day.

Conclusion:

Averate to Savage 2.0 (specifically the reps to failure version) suited me very well, providing me with a perfect balance between mainly not-so-heavy weights and only a few sets of all-out effort. Doing it three days a week fits my schedule just fine and generally speaking the last 21 weeks allowed me to enjoy my workouts like I wasn't able to for a long time.

[AllM1ght]

So I just finished Average 2 Savage 2.0 last friday with some very satisfying PRs. Since the subreddit is private I thought I'd also share my experience here in case anyone is interested in it.

SpoilerShow

Here's a brief review of my experience with the Average to Savage 2.0 program - Reps to Failure, three days per week version.

Basic information:

I'm a 27 year old, 180 cm tall and right now 88 kg heavy male with gym experience of probably around ten years total. Much of that time was the more or less beginner bodybuilding-type programming that most teens start out with, but I slowly got into doing the heavy lifts a few years in.
My last PRs were set about two years ago and my programming has been very on and off since then. I did a lot of program hopping because I never really liked the templates that I tried, had minor injuries every now and then, and took short breaks for holidays as usual. Then at the beginning of this year, of course, my gym was closed and I didn't do any sports at all for just about two or three months. After the re-opening I started out again with two weeks of simple linear progression and then jumped right into A2S with rough estimations for my training maxes. I reckon those estimations were somewhat accurate or maybe 5-10 kg lower than my actual maxes at that time, but I wanted to start the program conservatively.

Lift	PR two years ago (90 kg BW)	e1RM before A2S (81 kg BW)	PRs after A2S (88 kg BW)
Squat	187.5 kg	160 kg	210kg
Bench Press (paused)	130 kg	110kg	140 kg
Deadlift	220	180	240 kg

Evaluation:

Long story short, I was at the same time very surprised and very satisfied with how well the training and the eventual PR attempts went. My main goal was to achieve a 200 kg squat, but I was well able to outperform what I thought was possible. I'm sure a lot of this came through my ongoing training motivation, which I'm sure was mainly because this specific programming type suited me well.
To be clear,I achieved my previous PRs from two years ago doing an RPE-based strength template from Barbell Medicine. It is a very well written program that works probably just as fine as one would expect from those coaches, but I wasn't enjoying it very much. The RPE/RIR system puts me somewhat under pressure to hit the correct target and furthermore the general training intensity was too high for my liking. And this is where the A2S - RtF version was able to shine for me: Perform four sets of mostly moderate effor or at least little struggle, and then finish the lift with only one set that required somewhat strict concentration. Perfect for me.

Note on the sets with reps to failure: So basically, I was always able to hit more reps than the target was. At first, due to conservative e1RMs, I always hit +5 reps, but also later during the program I didn't have any problems getting more than the target. But it might also be important to note, that I never went past +5 reps. Reason for that was that the autoregulation doesn't add more weight on the TM if I hit more than +5 reps - so why would I do more? And at the same time this allowed me to almost never experience any heavy fatigue or regeneration issues due to an abnormal amount of reps.

For the auxiliary lifts I chose only exercises that I somewhat enjoy. Seriously, I simply don't want to hate my training but rather enjoy it as much as I can. So this is how I set up exercises and variations:

Squat auxiliary 1	Front squat* / Safety Bar Squat
Squat auxiliary 2	Beltless squat
Bench auxiliary 1	Close grip bench press
Bench auxiliary 2	DB bench press
OHP auxiliary	DB OHP
Back exercise on day 1 and 3	Pull-ups
Back exercise on day 2	Barbell rows
Accessories	-

*Front squats sucked all the way through. I pushed through for 17 weeks and then replaced them with SSB squats because front squats were always uncomfortable and without a doubt made my right knee hurt a lot (previously torn ACL from 7 years ago with complicated recovery). SSB squats were a delight in comparison and I will keep doing them.

I chose not to do any more accessories during this cycle and I don't feel that I missed something. For my future programming, I will simply repeat A2S - RtF with three days a week, only replacing the DB bench press with either paused bench press or spoto press (reason being that my gym has no heavy enough dumbbells that I would need now). I might also change from barbell rows to cable rows or landmines, because every now and then my back starts hurting a little the day after I do them.


Nutrition:

I have always been a bad eater in my life, meaning that I have a hard time getting in enough calories without stuffing myself full. I don't track macros at all (I did for 12 weeks before hitting my PRs two years ago), mainly because I absolutely hate it. And because I enjoy cooking and eating what I like. I do try to get some protein in every meal, but on average that would be no more than 100 g per day. I could add some on top by drinking shakes, but I can't do whey (irritates my skin) and all alternatives taste like shit. I don't care much about carbs or fat, since I'm already having difficulties with reaching enough calories at the end of the day. During the last 20 weeks I primarily tried to simply eat more by stuffing myself. Because I want to get to 93 kg some day.

Conclusion:

Averate to Savage 2.0 (specifically the reps to failure version) suited me very well, providing me with a perfect balance between mainly not-so-heavy weights and only a few sets of all-out effort. Doing it three days a week fits my schedule just fine and generally speaking the last 21 weeks allowed me to enjoy my workouts like I wasn't able to for a long time.

Absolutely brilliant results mate, Congrats.

[mouse]

It has come to my attention that I did not nearly sandbag enough in anticipation of my post peak DOMS and being an unconditioned fat bag of shit... send help...

[Cleverusername]

I just finished week two of the amrap version.
Really enjoying it so far.

Does the spreadsheet update your maxes? I’ve been over the target reps on some movements and under on others but I don’t see where it shows updated maxes.

[dw]

I just finished week two of the amrap version.
Really enjoying it so far.

Does the spreadsheet update your maxes? I’ve been over the target reps on some movements and under on others but I don’t see where it shows updated maxes.

They're in a hidden cell somewhere.

I'm doing ATS2 original on a diet. I like it a lot but can be tough to judge RPE 7 and especially RPE 6. I usually err on the side of overdoing it and keep doing sets until I'm confident.

[AllM1ght]

I just finished week two of the amrap version.
Really enjoying it so far.

Does the spreadsheet update your maxes? I’ve been over the target reps on some movements and under on others but I don’t see where it shows updated maxes.

Cropped to not share program, you should be able to work it out from that ^

[Cleverusername]

Thanks for the help fellas.

[DPriest442]

What did you guys do for the secondary exercises? Usually I do paused/pin variations, but trying to do that for 7/14 reps seems like it would be difficult to maintain form

[AllM1ght]

What did you guys do for the secondary exercises? Usually I do paused/pin variations, but trying to do that for 7/14 reps seems like it would be difficult to maintain form

Not on A2S anymore but my current go to's for high rep assistance are larsen and cg hooklying bench (regular close grip would be fine too). Platz squats, Good mornings or Nordics.

[PlutonB]

What did you guys do for the secondary exercises? Usually I do paused/pin variations, but trying to do that for 7/14 reps seems like it would be difficult to maintain form

For higher repped assistance I prefer

DL: Romanian, SGDL
Squat: Belt squat
Bench: incline bench, feet up slightly wider grip bench, reverse grip bench

Although my progress has been pretty lousy, so might be a reason to do the opposite.

[houzi]

Currently on week 4. My secondary exercises are:
High Bar Squat, Front Squat
Long Pause Bench, CGBP, Feet Up Bench Press
Pause Deadlift

Admittedly, pause deads have been a bit rough in higher rep ranges. Might switch them out for weeks 8-14.

[acorn1293]

I'm going to run this starting next week. I plan on doing the reps to failure, lower frequency, 5xb template with a couple tweaks. My set up looks like this...

1: TnG Bench, CG Bench, (Lateral Raise)
2: Squat, SLDL, Narrow SSB Squat, (Side Planks)
3: Press, Pause Bench, (Pull-Ups, Rear Delt Fly, BB Curl)
4: rest
5: Deadlift, Pin Squat, (GHR, GHR Sit-Ups)
6: Incline Bench, (Dips, Chins, Face Pull, Hammer Curl)
7: rest

I moved slots around a little and made it so day 5 was not a full body day. The stuff in parentheses are optional and would be Hanley-style density blocks or lighter "bodybuilding style" work. Do you guys think this arrangement would work or would it be better not to change up how Greg set up 5xb? I also plan to do 1@8 for Squat, TnG Bench, and Deadlift but am not sure if I should do that every week or every other week.

[houzi]

I'm going to run this starting next week. I plan on doing the reps to failure, lower frequency, 5xb template with a couple tweaks. My set up looks like this...

1: TnG Bench, CG Bench, (Lateral Raise)
2: Squat, SLDL, Narrow SSB Squat, (Side Planks)
3: Press, Pause Bench, (Pull-Ups, Rear Delt Fly, BB Curl)
4: rest
5: Deadlift, Pin Squat, (GHR, GHR Sit-Ups)
6: Incline Bench, (Dips, Chins, Face Pull, Hammer Curl)
7: rest

I moved slots around a little and made it so day 5 was not a full body day. The stuff in parentheses are optional and would be Hanley-style density blocks or lighter "bodybuilding style" work. Do you guys think this arrangement would work or would it be better not to change up how Greg set up 5xb? I also plan to do 1@8 for Squat, TnG Bench, and Deadlift but am not sure if I should do that every week or every other week.

Ive been running the 4x RIR template which I changed around a bit to suit my preferences. Its been great. I dont think you would have any issues with what youve written.

Ive been doing a single every week for the four main movements, including on the deload week, ive just finished week 10. I let the training max dictate what weight I use for the single, rather than judging RPE day to day (because im rarely accurate and this keeps me in check).

[perman]

So I just finished Average 2 Savage 2.0 last friday with some very satisfying PRs. Since the subreddit is private I thought I'd also share my experience here in case anyone is interested in it.

SpoilerShow

Here's a brief review of my experience with the Average to Savage 2.0 program - Reps to Failure, three days per week version.

Basic information:

I'm a 27 year old, 180 cm tall and right now 88 kg heavy male with gym experience of probably around ten years total. Much of that time was the more or less beginner bodybuilding-type programming that most teens start out with, but I slowly got into doing the heavy lifts a few years in.
My last PRs were set about two years ago and my programming has been very on and off since then. I did a lot of program hopping because I never really liked the templates that I tried, had minor injuries every now and then, and took short breaks for holidays as usual. Then at the beginning of this year, of course, my gym was closed and I didn't do any sports at all for just about two or three months. After the re-opening I started out again with two weeks of simple linear progression and then jumped right into A2S with rough estimations for my training maxes. I reckon those estimations were somewhat accurate or maybe 5-10 kg lower than my actual maxes at that time, but I wanted to start the program conservatively.

Lift	PR two years ago (90 kg BW)	e1RM before A2S (81 kg BW)	PRs after A2S (88 kg BW)
Squat	187.5 kg	160 kg	210kg
Bench Press (paused)	130 kg	110kg	140 kg
Deadlift	220	180	240 kg

Evaluation:

Long story short, I was at the same time very surprised and very satisfied with how well the training and the eventual PR attempts went. My main goal was to achieve a 200 kg squat, but I was well able to outperform what I thought was possible. I'm sure a lot of this came through my ongoing training motivation, which I'm sure was mainly because this specific programming type suited me well.
To be clear,I achieved my previous PRs from two years ago doing an RPE-based strength template from Barbell Medicine. It is a very well written program that works probably just as fine as one would expect from those coaches, but I wasn't enjoying it very much. The RPE/RIR system puts me somewhat under pressure to hit the correct target and furthermore the general training intensity was too high for my liking. And this is where the A2S - RtF version was able to shine for me: Perform four sets of mostly moderate effor or at least little struggle, and then finish the lift with only one set that required somewhat strict concentration. Perfect for me.

Note on the sets with reps to failure: So basically, I was always able to hit more reps than the target was. At first, due to conservative e1RMs, I always hit +5 reps, but also later during the program I didn't have any problems getting more than the target. But it might also be important to note, that I never went past +5 reps. Reason for that was that the autoregulation doesn't add more weight on the TM if I hit more than +5 reps - so why would I do more? And at the same time this allowed me to almost never experience any heavy fatigue or regeneration issues due to an abnormal amount of reps.

For the auxiliary lifts I chose only exercises that I somewhat enjoy. Seriously, I simply don't want to hate my training but rather enjoy it as much as I can. So this is how I set up exercises and variations:

Squat auxiliary 1	Front squat* / Safety Bar Squat
Squat auxiliary 2	Beltless squat
Bench auxiliary 1	Close grip bench press
Bench auxiliary 2	DB bench press
OHP auxiliary	DB OHP
Back exercise on day 1 and 3	Pull-ups
Back exercise on day 2	Barbell rows
Accessories	-

*Front squats sucked all the way through. I pushed through for 17 weeks and then replaced them with SSB squats because front squats were always uncomfortable and without a doubt made my right knee hurt a lot (previously torn ACL from 7 years ago with complicated recovery). SSB squats were a delight in comparison and I will keep doing them.

I chose not to do any more accessories during this cycle and I don't feel that I missed something. For my future programming, I will simply repeat A2S - RtF with three days a week, only replacing the DB bench press with either paused bench press or spoto press (reason being that my gym has no heavy enough dumbbells that I would need now). I might also change from barbell rows to cable rows or landmines, because every now and then my back starts hurting a little the day after I do them.


Nutrition:

I have always been a bad eater in my life, meaning that I have a hard time getting in enough calories without stuffing myself full. I don't track macros at all (I did for 12 weeks before hitting my PRs two years ago), mainly because I absolutely hate it. And because I enjoy cooking and eating what I like. I do try to get some protein in every meal, but on average that would be no more than 100 g per day. I could add some on top by drinking shakes, but I can't do whey (irritates my skin) and all alternatives taste like shit. I don't care much about carbs or fat, since I'm already having difficulties with reaching enough calories at the end of the day. During the last 20 weeks I primarily tried to simply eat more by stuffing myself. Because I want to get to 93 kg some day.

Conclusion:

Averate to Savage 2.0 (specifically the reps to failure version) suited me very well, providing me with a perfect balance between mainly not-so-heavy weights and only a few sets of all-out effort. Doing it three days a week fits my schedule just fine and generally speaking the last 21 weeks allowed me to enjoy my workouts like I wasn't able to for a long time.

3 days a week, 4 sets per exercise actually sounds pretty doable. I like your setup. I figured I had to do 4 or 5 days to fit all the exercises in since I tried 6 sets per exercise and the 3x sessions just got stupid long.

Think I'm gonna steal your setup and run it. Thanks.