How do you even assess the integrity of a structure that is underwater and how do you repair it if you have to?
The main problems were in the spillways. Unlike dams where they have an structure that the water actually spills over and then guides the water down the face or off to the side of the face of the dam, both Glenn Canyon and Hoover Dam's spillways are actually huge pipes that channel the water from the reservoir to the river below. Part of this structure consisted of the original diversion channels used when building the dam. Enough erosion and the path between the bottom of the reservoir above the dam and the river below would be opened and the whole thing would drain like a bathtub with the plug pulled
To repair it they waited until there was no flow and the spillways were dry.
The repair
The lake is so low now that it's almost dry. What a difference 39 years makes.
How do you even assess the integrity of a structure that is underwater and how do you repair it if you have to?
The main problems were in the spillways. Unlike dams where they have an structure that the water actually spills over and then guides the water down the face or off to the side of the face of the dam, both Glenn Canyon and Hoover Dam's spillways are actually huge pipes that channel the water from the reservoir to the river below. Part of this structure consisted of the original diversion channels used when building the dam. Enough erosion and the path between the bottom of the reservoir above the dam and the river below would be opened and the whole thing would drain like a bathtub with the plug pulled
To repair it they waited until there was no flow and the spillways were dry.
The repair
The lake is so low now that it's almost dry. What a difference 39 years makes.
Very interesting. Thanks! I was going to say I can't even imagine how much erosion that causes....then I saw it. You could never pay me enough to work in one of those things.
EDIT: not 'tank' as in "go down rapidly", or 'empty the tank', or to intentionally loose a game ...
....I mean like a TANK TANK
China love themselves a good tank vs. human standoff
The details and underlying minutia of the optics is funny to me.
(Never mind all the people forfeiting their life savings; getting ripped off by the china-housing-bubble imploding...that's just same o' same o')
It would seem ..... 'better'? .... to send a bunch of armored personal carriers or something else besides tanks.
Something with all kinds of smaller caliber weapons, machine guns, etc .... that are/were a little more maneuverable and not so expensive to run/deploy. A tank or an APC are both probably equally capable to run over people/mobs with (Tiannenmen Square joke).
Probably easier to see out of an APC. Tanks are made to destroy other tanks and other sub-tank armored vehicles on a vast battlefield.... not surpress riots? but what do I know?!
Its like ... the ultimate small dick over-compensating move here or something ....
==============================
God, you would THINK this would be the beginning of the end of china.
How can the citizenry have any confidence or allegiance to their CCP overlords any longer is beyond me.
Any upper middle class people, the new theme would be: Escape from China.
This is going to sound rough, but the majority of the people left over there don't have much of a moral compass.
Mao thinned out that part of the population and mentality a generation ago.
I can see the bulk of the population NOT caring if some rabble-rouser-student-protestors getting-steam-rolled into a stain on the roadway,
BUUUTT I think they DO care a lot about their money, and their own individual (immediate family's) well being.
Last edited by mbasic on Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
EDIT: not 'tank' as in "go down rapidly", or 'empty the tank', or to intentionally loose a game ...
....I mean like a TANK TANK
China love themselves a good tank vs. human standoff
The details and underlying minutia of the optics is funny to me.
(Never mind all the people forfeiting their life savings; getting ripped off by the china-housing-bubble imploding...that's just same o' same o')
It would seem ..... 'better'? .... to send a bunch of armored personal carriers or something else besides tanks.
Something with all kinds of smaller caliber weapons, machine guns, etc .... that are/were a little more maneuverable and not so expensive to run/deploy. A tank or an APC are both probably equally capable to run over people/mobs with (Tiannenmen Square joke).
Probably easier to see out of an APC. Tanks are made to destroy other tanks and other sub-tank armored vehicles on a vast battlefield.... not surpress riots? but what do I know?!
Its like ... the ultimate small dick over-compensating move here or something ....
I have talked to some people that lived in China and are familiar with the culture. The fact that the tank is more expensive would make it the logical choice for them. It's about display and prestige, overwhelm whenever possible and the bigger the public display the better.
In my experience with people raised in China and now living in the US, they all somewhat half-heartedly (or maybe just unassertively) believe in the Chinese government. The exception being Christians who are openly anti-CCP.
I think it has to do with the disillusioning effect of growing up believing in all of the anti-Western propaganda, then seeing the reality. The effect is not to become anti-CCP but to become wary of any kind of idealism, seeing it as just another form of propaganda. They don't really believe in the superiority of one system over another which means by default the CCP is acceptable because of the terribleness of revolution.
And there are after all things like Donald Trump and race riots and high levels of crime and the Capitol putsch that make one appreciate Chinese autocracy.
mbasic wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:33 pm
...God, you would THINK this would be the beginning of the end of china.
How can the citizenry have any confidence or allegiance to their CCP overlords any longer is beyond me.
Any upper middle class people, the new theme would be: Escape from China.
This is going to sound rough, but the majority of the people left over there don't have much of a moral compass.
Mao thinned out that part of the population and mentality a generation ago.
I can see the bulk of the population NOT caring if some rabble-rouser-student-protestors getting-steam-rolled into a stain on the roadway,
BUUUTT I think they DO care a lot about their money, and their own individual (immediate family's) well being.
I had a work colleague from Hong Kong who once told me that he didn't care about freedoms, he just wanted a strong economy, and that most of Hong Kong agreed with him. This was many years ago no, so someone who was old enough to remember before Hong Kong was returned to the PRC*. I can't imagine the indifference for 'freedoms' on the mainland. But, yeah, eff with their cash flow and that will get their attention.
*n=1, and it's certainly possible my friend may simply have been Hong Kong's Ebenezer Scrooge.
mbasic wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:33 pm
...God, you would THINK this would be the beginning of the end of china.
How can the citizenry have any confidence or allegiance to their CCP overlords any longer is beyond me.
Any upper middle class people, the new theme would be: Escape from China.
This is going to sound rough, but the majority of the people left over there don't have much of a moral compass.
Mao thinned out that part of the population and mentality a generation ago.
I can see the bulk of the population NOT caring if some rabble-rouser-student-protestors getting-steam-rolled into a stain on the roadway,
BUUUTT I think they DO care a lot about their money, and their own individual (immediate family's) well being.
I had a work colleague from Hong Kong who once told me that he didn't care about freedoms, he just wanted a strong economy, and that most of Hong Kong agreed with him. This was many years ago no, so someone who was old enough to remember before Hong Kong was returned to the PRC*. I can't imagine the indifference for 'freedoms' on the mainland. But, yeah, eff with their cash flow and that will get their attention.
*n=1, and it's certainly possible my friend may simply have been Hong Kong's Ebenezer Scrooge.
When you consider on the one hand the economic miracles of Japan and SK and probably to a lesser extent some other Asian countries in the post-WW2 era, and on the other hand the corruption and wealth inequality in China, I think it's questionable whether the CCP should be credited with anything other than holding back economic development less than they used to.
ETA - I guess he meant he doesn't care about Chinese hegemony as long as they don't interfere with the economy.
mbasic wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:33 pm
I can see the bulk of the population NOT caring if some rabble-rouser-student-protestors getting-steam-rolled into a stain on the roadway,
BUUUTT I think they DO care a lot about their money, and their own individual (immediate family's) well being.
mbasic wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:33 pm
I can see the bulk of the population NOT caring if some rabble-rouser-student-protestors getting-steam-rolled into a stain on the roadway,
BUUUTT I think they DO care a lot about their money, and their own individual (immediate family's) well being.
That sounds familiar.
Most of america is this way, sure (greed, self interest, etc)
But the huge difference is, our economy and markets are not (completely) imaginary, twisted, fake, etc....and we don't live in an/under an authoritarian country/govt.
We and most strong EU economies are have psuedo-ponzie-schemes, bubbles, govt interventions, and what not......but we seem to do a much better job as not to upset the apple cart in a macro sense and moderate things quite a bit better.
And the "realness" of our economy can absorb some of these hiccups.
I've been listening to some Youtube guys reporting on what is going on and discussing recent Chineses history. LOL. Local governments are apparently funded completely by "Lease" payments for urban land. It's illegal for any individual or dorporation to own urban land, the government owns it and you sign a 20 or 70 year lease. The higher the property values go to higher the lease payments which fund the government. The opposite hurts revenues. And on top of all of it the large developers are funded with a weird (To Western eyes) system whereby they get all of the money up front for a property. The new homeowner kicks in his 30% down payment and the bank sends the other 70% on over to be used in the construction. This funds the land aquisition (Leases) and development of the future projects as well. So, Evergreen et al have a cash flow hiccup and can't finish the homes that they are building (Apartments, condos, whatever). Now you've got people making a mortgage payment for a home they can't use because it isn't done, and also paying rent somewhere. The credit system doesn't just affect the individual, it affects the entire extended family over more than one generation - possibly affecting the kids admittance into a good school. The people are pissed off, can't withdraw more than $100 at a time and are doing good to be served at a bank even once a day. They have formed groups, for weird Chinese legal reasons, and are sending notices to the banks as a group that they aren't making any more mortgage payments until the homes get finished and apparently there is actual legal precedent on their side for that becasue it is a group and not an individual.
We thought 2008 was bad over here. Get out the popcorn.
Hardartery wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:02 pm
I've been listening to some Youtube guys reporting on what is going on and discussing recent Chineses history. LOL. Local governments are apparently funded completely by "Lease" payments for urban land. It's illegal for any individual or dorporation to own urban land, the government owns it and you sign a 20 or 70 year lease. The higher the property values go to higher the lease payments which fund the government. The opposite hurts revenues. And on top of all of it the large developers are funded with a weird (To Western eyes) system whereby they get all of the money up front for a property. The new homeowner kicks in his 30% down payment and the bank sends the other 70% on over to be used in the construction. This funds the land aquisition (Leases) and development of the future projects as well. So, Evergreen et al have a cash flow hiccup and can't finish the homes that they are building (Apartments, condos, whatever). Now you've got people making a mortgage payment for a home they can't use because it isn't done, and also paying rent somewhere. The credit system doesn't just affect the individual, it affects the entire extended family over more than one generation - possibly affecting the kids admittance into a good school. The people are pissed off, can't withdraw more than $100 at a time and are doing good to be served at a bank even once a day. They have formed groups, for weird Chinese legal reasons, and are sending notices to the banks as a group that they aren't making any more mortgage payments until the homes get finished and apparently there is actual legal precedent on their side for that becasue it is a group and not an individual.
We thought 2008 was bad over here. Get out the popcorn.
Have you seen the Economics Explained youtube channel? He's talked about a lot of the same things you bring up.
"They have formed groups, for weird Chinese legal reasons, and are sending notices to the banks as a group that they aren't making any more mortgage payments until the homes get finished and apparently there is actual legal precedent on their side for that becasue it is a group and not an individual."
Hardartery wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:02 pm
I've been listening to some Youtube guys reporting on what is going on and discussing recent Chineses history. LOL. Local governments are apparently funded completely by "Lease" payments for urban land. It's illegal for any individual or dorporation to own urban land, the government owns it and you sign a 20 or 70 year lease. The higher the property values go to higher the lease payments which fund the government. The opposite hurts revenues. And on top of all of it the large developers are funded with a weird (To Western eyes) system whereby they get all of the money up front for a property. The new homeowner kicks in his 30% down payment and the bank sends the other 70% on over to be used in the construction. This funds the land aquisition (Leases) and development of the future projects as well. So, Evergreen et al have a cash flow hiccup and can't finish the homes that they are building (Apartments, condos, whatever). Now you've got people making a mortgage payment for a home they can't use because it isn't done, and also paying rent somewhere. The credit system doesn't just affect the individual, it affects the entire extended family over more than one generation - possibly affecting the kids admittance into a good school. The people are pissed off, can't withdraw more than $100 at a time and are doing good to be served at a bank even once a day. They have formed groups, for weird Chinese legal reasons, and are sending notices to the banks as a group that they aren't making any more mortgage payments until the homes get finished and apparently there is actual legal precedent on their side for that becasue it is a group and not an individual.
We thought 2008 was bad over here. Get out the popcorn.
Have you seen the Economics Explained youtube channel? He's talked about a lot of the same things you bring up.
"They have formed groups, for weird Chinese legal reasons, and are sending notices to the banks as a group that they aren't making any more mortgage payments until the homes get finished and apparently there is actual legal precedent on their side for that becasue it is a group and not an individual."
Good luck with that...
I find it more funny than scary, because I'm not over there. They are forming groups to try and avoid blacklisting for defaulting on payments. That is some serious stuff over there, it is a lot more serious than having trouble getting a car loan for a few years, but they are risking it anyway. That is a scary corner to be backed into en masse. And I have seenthat channel, he seems pretty good.
Thought that was pretty interesting. I assume a lot of the fuss about Huawei years back was stemming from these investigations.
Another reason Congress needs to move on the chips bill. We can't allow critical infrastructure to function on foreign technology.
Yep. We should also do more to encourage foreign fabs here. TSMC is building a big one in AZ. We need more. TSMC is likely the most strategically important foreign company on the planet for us.
mgil wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:13 am
It’s fun to keep reliving the Trojan Horse tale.
It is a bit like that, yeah. I'd say along these lines the biggest failure of Western foreign policy, US especially, in the last 50 years has been the seemingly reasonable assumption that if you bring your lifestyle to adversarial countries and integrate them into the global economy, they will become like you. Also known as the McDonald's Peace Theory. This has been tried in Russia and China, and has failed spectacularly.
We develop and engineer great tech but outsource to maximize profits. In a culture like China’s, IP is ignored, so even if we don’t provide engineering details, stuff is reverse engineered and we train them implicitly. Then they build shit like keyboard loggers into pedestrian stuff and grab tons of data.
I agree that the Chips Act or whatever will help, but the USA also needs to have policy in place that keeps companies from outsourcing technology that is vital to domestic infrastructure.
mgil wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:19 amI agree that the Chips Act or whatever will help, but the USA also needs to have policy in place that keeps companies from outsourcing technology that is vital to domestic infrastructure.
This ^.
Also, Americans need to understand that chasing the 'cheapest' solution is killing us. Americans will need to pay more for critical goods and services in order to produce them locally.
mgil wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:19 amI agree that the Chips Act or whatever will help, but the USA also needs to have policy in place that keeps companies from outsourcing technology that is vital to domestic infrastructure.
This ^.
Also, Americans need to understand that chasing the 'cheapest' solution is killing us. Americans will need to pay more for critical goods and services in order to produce them locally.
That’s because of the consumerism that’s been pursued to grow the economy. This paid some dividends strategically for the DoD insofar that commercial equipment became far more powerful than mil spec stuff. However, the constant drive to put a personal electronic device in the hand of every person with designed obsolescence has become a curse upon us as well as the environment.
mgil wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:19 amI agree that the Chips Act or whatever will help, but the USA also needs to have policy in place that keeps companies from outsourcing technology that is vital to domestic infrastructure.
This ^.
Also, Americans need to understand that chasing the 'cheapest' solution is killing us. Americans will need to pay more for critical goods and services in order to produce them locally.
I don't disagree with you, I'm just dubious about Americans' appetite to follow through on something like this. We love our cheap crap. I would think we'd really need tariffs or some other government action that makes other countries' goods competitive to really have an impact.
