Lower/Upper or Full body?

[Wilhelm]

Trying things out is essential to get the answers that apply to you individually.

Another aspect of the equation, imo, is, which set up do you enjoy more?
That will likely improve compliance/consistency, and that's what gets results in the long term.

I'm not as smart as Hanley in these things, is an objectively true statement.
But my perspective on myself is more granular, if i'm paying attention.

I'm sticking with MM 2 week, because it has worked for me in most regards.

But i decided to do strength day only for bench this run.
So three times a week still, but no H or P days.

Now i'm also splitting bench off from lower body two days a week.
I had to rearrange my schedule because of needing to drive everyday for a week+, and spreading things out helped with that.

Now i'm home, and thinking, "i kind of like that" "makes all the days a little easier, especially heavy deadlift day."

Now i'll just do that for a good long run, and see what happens.

Even if you get it 'wrong" you will be exercising the mental muscle of learning how to train, and you will get better at that over time if you keep at it.

Short of hiring a dedicated personal coach, (and even then) this is a vital skill to develop.

So yeah, try it.
I really doubt it will hurt.

[GlasgowJock]

Keep experimenting mate, see what works for you with the following imo caveats during 'program hopping'.

1) Still train consistently.
2) Take work sets to their appropriate (volume or strength-wise) RPE/ RIR cap. I feel there's a lot of merit in Hanley's/ Nuckol's stuff, thinking of sets as 'units' that you repeat until you hit your desired cap.

I favour dedicated dead lift days though I'm quite happy to do a dead lift variation (RDL at present, man I love this movement) following my main squat. Pulling just beats me up. Some people may experience the opposite i.e. squatting really beats them up. Saying that, if I had access to a leg press or hack squat I'd probably do this as my 'squat variation' following main dead lift (I really need to make a more concerted effort to develop my front squat).

[CamLeslie]

Keep experimenting mate, see what works for you with the following imo caveats during 'program hopping'.

1) Still train consistently.
2) Take work sets to their appropriate (volume or strength-wise) RPE/ RIR cap. I feel there's a lot of merit in Hanley's/ Nuckol's stuff, thinking of sets as 'units' that you repeat until you hit your desired cap.

This is good advice. I've made pretty good progress over the last couple years doing this, despite not "finishing" a program.

[Wilhelm]

I'm too lazy to submit this to Trexler and Nuckols for Q&A, but i've been wondering (since i started splitting bench off from my usual 3 lifting days), what effect, if any, upper and lower body work have on MPS in the muscle groups not being worked that day, but which are still in the 24/48 hour period after they have been worked.

Kind of hoping there is some benefit in that regard.
I certainly am liking doing it this way.

Sundays are squat and bench only, so i'm keeping that day intact.
That makes for two actual rest days still. Monday and Saturday in my case.

[Tommy1507]

I want to shift my focus more to the upper body. Tried Full body and Lower/upper. I want to only do the minimum for legs, that would be 2 squat and 2 dl slots. The rest upper body.
I like full body more than upper/lower, bc the stress more evenly distributed. Is there any other split other than PPL that i am missing?

[DCR]

I want to shift my focus more to the upper body. Tried Full body and Lower/upper. I want to only do the minimum for legs, that would be 2 squat and 2 dl slots. The rest upper body.
I like full body more than upper/lower, bc the stress more evenly distributed. Is there any other split other than PPL that i am missing?

Plenty of bro splits that, instead of doing upper body on a push/pull, separate out arms so that they aren’t afterthoughts when you’re tired.

Something like:

Day One: Legs (squats)
Day Two: Chest/Back (deads)
Day Three: Shoulders/Arms
Day Four: Off
Repeat

This is not a way to move max weight and may be a great way to get tendonitis (ask me how I know), but it is a good route to jackedness. You can mitigate the issues by adding more rest days, but that of course will reduce the frequency of squats/deads. I don’t actually think that that’s a problem, but I’m working in your self-imposed frequency minimum.

[5hout]

Is there any other split other than PPL that i am missing?

A bunch, but it might be easier if you list the exercises or (in the alternative) the muscle groups you want to hit 1x a week, 2x a week, 3x a week. Then you/others can play around dividing them up and find something that works for you, for now. Also, how many days/workouts do you like to have per week?

Two other common 3 day splits are:
S+Squat Accessories day, B+Bench Accessories day, D+Deadlift Accessories day.
Some Variation of: S+Bench Accessories day, D+Bench Accessories day. B+S/D Accessories day.

[Hardartery]

I want to shift my focus more to the upper body. Tried Full body and Lower/upper. I want to only do the minimum for legs, that would be 2 squat and 2 dl slots. The rest upper body.
I like full body more than upper/lower, bc the stress more evenly distributed. Is there any other split other than PPL that i am missing?

Minimum for Legs would be once a week and not hitting them super hard. 2 Squat and 2 DL slots is beginner level stuff, past novice you should not be able to recover from that many times a week, especially not natty. Seriously.

How many times a week are you planning on lifting? That is crucial in laying out a program. Also, what equipment is available to you? Home gym or commercial?

[Tommy1507]

Is there any other split other than PPL that i am missing?

A bunch, but it might be easier if you list the exercises or (in the alternative) the muscle groups you want to hit 1x a week, 2x a week, 3x a week. Then you/others can play around dividing them up and find something that works for you, for now. Also, how many days/workouts do you like to have per week?

Two other common 3 day splits are:
S+Squat Accessories day, B+Bench Accessories day, D+Deadlift Accessories day.
Some Variation of: S+Bench Accessories day, D+Bench Accessories day. B+S/D Accessories day.

I want to lift 4 times per week kn my garage gym.
Thought of:
SQ , FSQ
DL , RDL
B, CBG, Incline
2 x OHP
2 x Row
2 x Lat pulldown or Pull Ups
Biceps and Triceps

I think this would be pretty standard from most templates that i have seen. Should be enough volume for the upper body? But many say upper body can handle much volume?

[5hout]

"Should be enough volume for the upper body? But many say upper body can handle much volume?" that's hard/impossible to answer in isolation. I'd say pick some setup, run 2 or 3 8 weeks blocks and if you don't get stronger on some selected metrics, it's either too much or not enough

IMO, program hopping between "real" programs is probably better than writing your own, but... with those preferences and 4 days I'd do:

D1:SQ, Incline, Row
D2:RDL, OHP, Lat PD
D3:FSQ, B, Row
D4:DL, CBG, OHP, Lat PD
You've got spacing between everything, noting gets touched up too much in 1 day or left alone for too long. As to what you actually do for each of those that's up to you, but if you lift to pretty close to failure (but not failing too often) a few times per week and increase either weight or sets or reps over 4-8 week blocks before taking a deload for 1-2 weeks, you're probably going to get stronger.

[Hardartery]

Is there any other split other than PPL that i am missing?

A bunch, but it might be easier if you list the exercises or (in the alternative) the muscle groups you want to hit 1x a week, 2x a week, 3x a week. Then you/others can play around dividing them up and find something that works for you, for now. Also, how many days/workouts do you like to have per week?

Two other common 3 day splits are:
S+Squat Accessories day, B+Bench Accessories day, D+Deadlift Accessories day.
Some Variation of: S+Bench Accessories day, D+Bench Accessories day. B+S/D Accessories day.

I want to lift 4 times per week kn my garage gym.
Thought of:
SQ , FSQ
DL , RDL
B, CBG, Incline
2 x OHP
2 x Row
2 x Lat pulldown or Pull Ups
Biceps and Triceps

I think this would be pretty standard from most templates that i have seen. Should be enough volume for the upper body? But many say upper body can handle much volume?

I am partial to U/L splits, for the most part, but okay.

Day 1 - Squat 3x3, OHP 5x5, Triceps 3x8-10, Biceps 3x8-12

Day 2 - Bench 3x5, Incline 3x5, pull ups (Or pulldowns)

Day 3 - FSQ 3x2, RDL 5x5, Biceps 4 x 8, OHP 3x8

Day 4 - DL 4 x 2, CBG 3x3, Rows 2x10, Triceps 3x8-10

Something like that I guess. Rows, pull downs, pull ups = all really the same thing unless you are doing some really special specific form. It makes more sense to pick one or two and then rotate out on block changes. I think your lower back will quickly become unhappy with all of this unless you are doing chest supported rows. I also think it would make more sense to do Lateral Raises and Reverse Flyes on Day 2, especially if you do pull ups that day. You can get great muscle fatigue in tris, bis, delts and calves without any significant drain on the overall recovery system, they tend to bounce right back within 48 hours while not crushing the rest of your recovery.

I would also like to note that Frequency and Volume are frequently used interchangeably as terms but are very different things. You can have more frequency without significant volume and vice versa, depending on how you program. I think the volume in general is too high in this program, but it depends on a lot of variables and can be handled just fine with self regulation.

[perman]

Minimum for Legs would be once a week and not hitting them super hard. 2 Squat and 2 DL slots is beginner level stuff, past novice you should not be able to recover from that many times a week, especially not natty. Seriously.

I mean, that totally depends on how you dose those sessions. I don't think there is a connection between frequency and training advancement in the way you're proposing here. There are plenty of both beginner and advanced programs that are both low frequency and high frequency.

Bryce Lewis breaks down the difference between beginner and advanced programs in the best way I've seen here:

[Hardartery]

Minimum for Legs would be once a week and not hitting them super hard. 2 Squat and 2 DL slots is beginner level stuff, past novice you should not be able to recover from that many times a week, especially not natty. Seriously.

I mean, that totally depends on how you dose those sessions. I don't think there is a connection between frequency and training advancement in the way you're proposing here. There are plenty of both beginner and advanced programs that are both low frequency and high frequency.

Bryce Lewis breaks down the difference between beginner and advanced programs in the best way I've seen here:

Advanced lifters have to cut frequency as a general rule. Even if you are working at 70% for your training, that 70% is much more difficult to recover from when the numbers get bigger. Additionally, different muscles recover differently. Your quads just do not recover like your calves or triceps no matter what level you are at. Beginners can keep pounding multiple times a week because they simply aren't doing the same damage. Your ability to really work the muscles increases with experience which couples with the greater loads that you are handling. Upper work twice a week is generally doable, arguably because of the greater density of androgen receptors in the upper body, but also because of the muscles themselves. Julius Maddox benches once every 10 days, because it takes him that long to recover from the damage using the weights that he is using. Two lower sessions in the same week sets me back for a week because of the extra recovery demands that my body can't meet that quickly. Having said all of that, more volume is not "Minimum".

I have no idea who Bryce Lewis is, but I'll give him a listen later.

[perman]

I just don't agree frequency has to come down, because frequency is totally dependent on volume, intensity, RPE and exercise choice/variety/number and there are an infinite ways to program. You can scale intensity and volume way back and spread it out over the week as an advanced lifter too (basically partly what DUP programming is all about). Plenty of Olympic lifters squat almost every session for instance.

[Hardartery]

I just don't agree frequency has to come down, because frequency is totally dependent on volume, intensity, RPE and exercise choice/variety/number and there are an infinite ways to program. You can scale intensity and volume way back and spread it out over the week as an advanced lifter too (basically partly what DUP programming is all about). Plenty of Olympic lifters squat almost every session for instance.

Olympic lifters are squatting for technique and not much else. They don't need to squat much more than they C&J. Scaling intensity way back to fit more volume/frequency in is the definition of junk volume. Unless you are still learning the movement or it's just a low priority accessory work that's just a waste of time. If you are just looking for hypertrophy then that's different, because the actual weight is not that important in that case and should be relatively light for the lifter, but that isn't what was being asked about.

[OverheadDeadlifts]

I just don't agree frequency has to come down, because frequency is totally dependent on volume, intensity, RPE and exercise choice/variety/number and there are an infinite ways to program. You can scale intensity and volume way back and spread it out over the week as an advanced lifter too (basically partly what DUP programming is all about). Plenty of Olympic lifters squat almost every session for instance.

I do think there comes a point where frequency needs to come down due to there being no productive work you can do that doesn’t just interfere with recovery more than it adds useful stimulus. Like @Hardartery mentioned, at the extreme end you have Eddie Hall and Julius Maddox whose lifts got stuck with a weekly schedule and started moving again with over 7 days of recovery.

Obviously it’s very dependent on the lift and how strong you are. I think the average person is most likely to notice this on deadlift. I’m no amazing deadlifter, but I’d recover better from 8x3 @80% once per week rather than 4x3 twice per week or even 1x3 every day. However most people are not going to get strong enough to where pressing less than twice per week is the best option.

[Hardartery]

I just don't agree frequency has to come down, because frequency is totally dependent on volume, intensity, RPE and exercise choice/variety/number and there are an infinite ways to program. You can scale intensity and volume way back and spread it out over the week as an advanced lifter too (basically partly what DUP programming is all about). Plenty of Olympic lifters squat almost every session for instance.

I do think there comes a point where frequency needs to come down due to there being no productive work you can do that doesn’t just interfere with recovery more than it adds useful stimulus. Like @Hardartery mentioned, at the extreme end you have Eddie Hall and Julius Maddox whose lifts got stuck with a weekly schedule and started moving again with over 7 days of recovery.

Obviously it’s very dependent on the lift and how strong you are. I think the average person is most likely to notice this on deadlift. I’m no amazing deadlifter, but I’d recover better from 8x3 @80% once per week rather than 4x3 twice per week or even 1x3 every day. However most people are not going to get strong enough to where pressing less than twice per week is the best option.

I think at a certain point almost no one can seriously push the actual movement more than once a week without stagnation or even regression. That doesn't mean going HIT/Mike Mentzer, it just means structuring you accessory work to move the needle without crushing what's left of your recovery capacity. I'm sure Maddox can hit tri's more than once every ten days, and probably delts and separate work for lats and upper back. Putting the whole movement together, no, but some parts. If someone merely wants to maintain squats, no sense in more than once a week and just hitting your number. Over time hitting that number will get less taxing overall and you won't lose anything in the meantime. 2x a week is just asking to ruin your recovery for the lift that you are actually trying to focus on.

[perman]

Olympic lifters are squatting for technique and not much else. They don't need to squat much more than they C&J. Scaling intensity way back to fit more volume/frequency in is the definition of junk volume.

There's a happy medium though. Hanley's programs which are popular on this site features tons of sets done often and far from failure, but at loads where near-maximum velocity ensures overall force isn't far from max.

Overall, I agree that frequencies of a completion exercise normally comes down the bigger and stronger you get if you retain the same sets and reps, but there are so many other ways to adjust to that besides lowering frequencies. Something like Sheiko actually goes the other way and recommends increasing frequency and volume over time and adding days while making everything more submaximal. It would be overly dismissive to call that junk volume when tons of ranked lifters have done well with Sheiko style programming.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

I think at a certain point almost no one can seriously push the actual movement more than once a week without stagnation or even regression.

Ivan Nikolov Abadjiev has entered the chat.

[Hardartery]

Olympic lifters are squatting for technique and not much else. They don't need to squat much more than they C&J. Scaling intensity way back to fit more volume/frequency in is the definition of junk volume.

There's a happy medium though. Hanley's programs which are popular on this site features tons of sets done often and far from failure, but at loads where near-maximum velocity ensures overall force isn't far from max.

Overall, I agree that frequencies of a completion exercise normally comes down the bigger and stronger you get if you retain the same sets and reps, but there are so many other ways to adjust to that besides lowering frequencies. Something like Sheiko actually goes the other way and recommends increasing frequency and volume over time and adding days while making everything more submaximal. It would be overly dismissive to call that junk volume when tons of ranked lifters have done well with Sheiko style programming.

Hanley's programming walks a fine line. It can be effective when done correctly but easily screwed up by the inexperienced or delusional, IMO. Same with Sheiko, I don't consider Sheiko to be good beginner programming generally speaking and a bad idea in general for a lot of lifters. Some guys thrive on it, but many crash and burn. Lowering frequency is the easiest tool for controlling overall volume and recovery and most lifters lack the finesse to get the intensity right on high volume without a coach holding their hand. Capacity for volume can be increased - to a point - through training but most guys are going to over do the volume+instensity combo and spin their wheels. If you want to just maintain something it's better to do the minimum stress to maintain rather than hurt your recovery and progress on the thing you are actually trying to progress. YMMV.